What key?

[1001gear]

There should be a"rock" qualifier for such tunes and their modes. FWIW, I tried going thru a couple cycles of Alabama D, C, G and setting G like that blues track and then circling back to the Alabama D, C, G. Sounds like an abrupt key change to D.

[Folder]

 

4. Skynyrd themselves disagreed about what key it was in. (You can find amusing tales of studio arguments if you search,) However, in live performances - FWIW - they ended on G, suggesting they eventually came to some democratic decision on G. (Doesn't mean that's "correct", of course. It's still a matter of anyone's opinion.)

 

5. An analysis of Ed King's solo suggests he (at least) was thinking of it as key of G. But of course the notes are all the same (G major or D mixolydian), so it makes little difference. You can't play "wrong notes" whichever way you think of it. (Well, "wrong notes" would still be possible either way, but relative to the chords, not the key.)

 

Ed King:

 

Kooper simply didn't like the solo because it wasn't in the key of D. He probably would've loved Steve Gaines' solo on the live album. As great as Gaines was, I was always surprised that he couldn't "hear" the real key. And to compound Kooper's error, he played the song for Mike Bloomfield and Bloomfield laughed when he heard it. "That guy played the solo in the wrong key!"

 

In my defense...both guitar solos came to me in a dream. Note for note. I just played it as I saw it. The tune was recorded at Studio One, Doraville, GA. NOT L.A. I believe I did the solo in 2 takes. (I've had other song ideas come to me right before drifting off to sleep. But I never actually SAW a solo like the two I saw in SHA.)

 

I have heard stories that Kooper wanted to redo the solo with either Collins or Rossington and they couldn't come up with anything that fit -- I have heard that story but I have never asked either one of them about it. The guys actually stuck up for me. They said that since I had saw it in a dream then that is the way it was going to be. I didn't just hear it in a dream, I actually saw it. When Billy [Powell] plays his piano solo, he plays it in the key of G.

 

My crazy logic always told me that the song is actually in G...NOT D. The song RESOLVES in G....listen to Billy's piano solo at the end...it's in G. In 1989, Wolf Marshall did a transcription of my guitar solo for Guitar For The Practicing Musician. He indicated ONE SHARP...which IS the key of G. I rest my case

 

http://edking.proboards.com/thread/87/secong-helping?ixzz30879fMFE=undefined

 

[JonR]

Write something...Yes, I've read that quote too. I happen to agree with him (and Billy Powell) but only because that's the way I hear it too. Those who hear it in D just hear it differently. None of us is either "right" or "wrong", in any absolute sense. We just have our ears focussed in different directions, and have different hearing prejudices.

 

And I have to disagree in any case with his assertion that notating it in 1 sharp means it's key of G. It doesn't. A 1-sharp key simply denotes the pitch collection used (for the most part) in the song. Key sigs only specify scales (sets of pitches), not keys as such. 1 sharp often indicates the key of E minor. And it can just as easily indicate D mixolydian mode, or A dorian. IOW, it proves nothing about the tonal centre - because there is nothing (objectively) to be proved!

 

The "real" key is whatever you hear as the tonal centre, and it's natural that we each subjectively feel the way we hear it is "correct", and anyone who hears it differently is "wrong". Ed King thinks Kooper was wrong. Kooper thinks King was wrong. Neither of them is "right" (and both are somewhat dumb for insisting on their point of view, not realising that it isn't a matter of fact).

 

And the stuff about the solo coming to him in a dream is not particularly relevant - except that I guess it made him stick to his guns in the studio.

[Folder]

 

And I have to disagree in any case with his assertion that notating it in 1 sharp means it's key of G. It doesn't. A 1-sharp key simply denotes the pitch collection used (for the most part) in the song. Key sigs only specify scales (sets of pitches), not keys as such. 1 sharp often indicates the key of E minor. And it can just as easily indicate D mixolydian mode, or A dorian. IOW, it proves nothing about the tonal centre - because there is nothing (objectively) to be proved!

 

The "real" key is whatever you hear as the tonal centre, and it's natural that we each subjectively feel the way we hear it is "correct", and anyone who hears it differently is "wrong". Ed King thinks Kooper was wrong. Kooper thinks King was wrong. Neither of them is "right" (and both are somewhat dumb for insisting on their point of view, not realising that it isn't a matter of fact).

 

 

It's interesting that Kooper says the song is in the key D. There are three chords in the song - D,C and G. There is no C chord in the key of D. So when Kooper says he thought it should have been played in the key of D does he mean D mixolydian? If so, considering that D mixolydian and G major have the same notes then I don't understand why he thought it was in the wrong key. If not, then was he expecting to hear a C note as an accidental?

 

A key doesn't really mean anything unless it's defined by a mode. I play with guitar players all the time that play minor pentatonic and blues scales over everything. Half the time they're not in the right mode. I'm always trying to figure out what they are playing and transpose it in my head so I can tell them the right key to play in. For example if a song is in C major I tell them the song in in the key of A because I know that the only scales they know how to play are minor scales.

[1001gear]

Here's the scientific opinion.

With no space, no time, no mass, no energy, and no potential, it blowed up and here we am.

 

D Dorian, Major I

[JonR]

Here's the scientific opinion.

With no space, no time, no mass, no energy, and no potential, it blowed up and here we am.

 

D Dorian, Major I

Clearly you're not interested in the debate - you believe there is no question - so I wonder why you post....?

 

What's your opinion of all those who believe it's in G major? Are they stupid (got their theory wrong)? or deaf (can't hear properly)?

 

 

[JonR]

 

It's interesting that Kooper says the song is in the key D. There are three chords in the song - D,C and G. There is no C chord in the key of D. So when Kooper says he thought it should have been played in the key of D does he mean D mixolydian?

Yes. He would know very well that the "key of D", in rock music, can include a C chord. bVIIs are conventional.

If so, considering that D mixolydian and G major have the same notes then I don't understand why he thought it was in the wrong key.

Because King's solo was mostly drawn from G major pentatonic (with bluesy Bbs here and there). So he was playing G-centric phrases, even on the D chord. That's not a problem if you hear the key as G - which of course King did - because a sus4 on the V is quite a common sound - anticipating a tonic; but if you hear D as the tonic chord you're going to hear those G notes as "wrong", as they're not resolving to F#.

 

And actually King is not quite right about the piano solo being "in G", at least not in the same way as his solo is. The piano solo is tied very closely to chord tones, with chromatic approaches. So it doesn't sound any more "in G" than it does "in D". It just depends on how you hear the chords, which of course was V-IV-I for King, so he felt the piano solo backed him up, whereas in fact it's neutral. (I also hear the piano solo as being in G but only because that's how I hear the chord sequence.)

A key doesn't really mean anything unless it's defined by a mode.

Debatable at best, depending on what you mean by "mode" . In fact - in conventional theory - modes are different things to keys, not relevant at all. A key is defined by a combination of melodic phrasing and chord progression - both of which imply a scale, of course, but it's how they're put together which conveys the sense of key.

The thing with SHA is that the way melody and chords are put together is ambiguous as to key centre. Either G or D can be heard as the tonal centre, depending on your aural prejudices.

I play with guitar players all the time that play minor pentatonic and blues scales over everything. Half the time they're not in the right mode. I'm always trying to figure out what they are playing and transpose it in my head so I can tell them the right key to play in. For example if a song is in C major I tell them the song in in the key of A because I know that the only scales they know how to play are minor scales.

OK, but if it's a blues in C, they'd be right to go with C minor pent. If not a blues, I agree, A minor pent (or even the full A minor scale) is safer.

You need to play with a better class of guitarists... (And talking about modes with guys like that is only going to make things worse... )

 

 

[1001gear]

Clearly you're not interested in the debate - you believe there is no question - so I wonder why you post....?

 

What's your opinion of all those who believe it's in G major? Are they stupid (got their theory wrong)? or deaf (can't hear properly)?

 

 

i like posting. Sacrasm included. I'm thinking if the question was, "How would you notate SHA?" then argue on.

 

If you look at some simple facts like:

It's Rock.

I IV I Dorian Rock is a fact of Rock

The D major falls on the downbeat and the thing continuously cycles back to the same D major on the downbeat.

If the question is "What key?"

Then there is no debate.

[Vito Corleone]

 

And actually King is not quite right about the piano solo being "in G", at least not in the same way as his solo is. The piano solo is tied very closely to chord tones, with chromatic approaches. So it doesn't sound any more "in G" than it does "in D". It just depends on how you hear the chords, which of course was V-IV-I for King, so he felt the piano solo backed him up, whereas in fact it's neutral. (I also hear the piano solo as being in G but only because that's how I hear the chord sequence.)

 

 

 

I agree with this. The piano solo is less of a consistent melodic piece than it is a sequence of chord riffs. He plays a D riff, he plays a C riff, and then he plays a G riff (for the most part.) I hear that solo as being in G because of the chord sequence and because every phrase has it staying on the G chord twice as long so it feels and sounds as if the solo resolves to G and it based around it.

[Vito Corleone]

 

 

 

If you look at some simple facts like:

It's Rock.

I IV I Dorian Rock is a fact of Rock

The D major falls on the downbeat and the thing continuously cycles back to the same D major on the downbeat.

 

Depending on how you hear it/feel it. It also continuously cycles back to the same G major on both downbeats of the 2nd measure of the phrase. Ending a phrase on the root is also a very common element of Rock.

[JonR]

 

i like posting. Sacrasm included.

That's OK, except sarcasm is sometimes hard to spot.

I'm thinking if the question was, "How would you notate SHA?" then argue on.

Notating it is easy. 1 sharp. That has no bearing on the tonal centre.

If you look at some simple facts like:

It's Rock.

Agreed

I IV I Dorian Rock is a fact of Rock

Yes. So is mixolydian and major key.

The D major falls on the downbeat and the thing continuously cycles back to the same D major on the downbeat.

Yes. But does it sound resolved on the D?

To your ears, yes.

To mine, no (or not as much as it sounds resolved on the G).

The first chord of a song (or chord loop) is not a reliable guide to key.

You don't really need to justify your opinion. You just need to admit that it's an opinion, formed from what your ears (and musical experience) are telling you.

If the question is "What key?"

Then there is no debate.

Not for you, clearly. The point you're missing (or seem to be missing) is that your opinion is not fact. All you're doing is constantly repeating your opinion, - as if it's fact - which makes the whole thing circular. (I'm getting a whiff of Nigel Tufnel...)

.

FACT: some people hear the key as D, some hear it as G.

 

The debate (the meaningful one anyway) is not about who is right - if only because opinion seems quite evenly balanced. The original lengthy thread on TGP came down about 70:30 in favour of D. Other threads on the topic have been the other way, maybe 60:40 on G. This one seems to be more in favour of G than D. (Although we have to rule out those who say it's G just because of the scale, not how they hear it. Ie the chords all come from the G major scale so it must be in G. Wrong.)

Arguing about who is right is therefore pointless. Whichever way the democratic vote might fall, such a large minority the other way can't be dismissed. (With the vast majority of songs, a democratic vote would always be overwhelmingly one way, making debate largely pointless,)

 

The real issue about this tune is the very fact that the key is (clearly, whether you like it or not) ambiguous. That's what's interesting. To me, anyhow .

 

I (and lots of others) hear the key as G; you (and lots of others) hear the key as D.

Those are the facts. The rest is too often - sadly - spurious theoretical justification for personal opinion, when it should be questions about how we perceive tonality and key centre in the first place.

This tune proves that it's not just about the notes and harmonies that the music consists of (which is what we might otherwise have imagined). It clearly has to do with personal musical experience, habits of listening. Our opinions are only of interest in that they differ.

 

[Folder]

Yes. He would know very well that the "key of D", in rock music, can include a C chord. bVIIs are conventional.

 

 

Well I'm not really an expert in music theory so I don't really understand this. I know just enough to keep me out of trouble and help me compose my own music. All that cadences and resolving stuff doesn't mean much to me. I mostly think in terms of key signatures, modes, modulations and accidentals but hopefully I can learn some things with threads like this one.

 

.

 

You need to play with a better class of guitarists... (And talking about modes with guys like that is only going to make things worse... )

 

 

Well it's interesting I know musicians who know even less about music theory than I do, but they can play and improvise far better than I ever will. There's something to be said about having an ear for music. I read something where Ed King says he doesn't even know any scales. He said when he plays a guitar solo he's playing off of chord shapes.

[JonR]

 

Well I'm not really an expert in music theory so I don't really understand this. I know just enough to keep me out of trouble and help me compose my own music. All that cadences and resolving stuff doesn't mean much to me.

It's only jargon. Words for sounds you probably know about already.

I mostly think in terms of key signatures' date=' modes, modulations and accidentals[/quote']OK, you know some jargon then...

Well it's interesting I know musicians who know even less about music theory than I do, but they can play and improvise far better than I ever will.

That's because theory doesn't help you improvise (much).

There's something to be said about having an ear for music. I read something where Ed King says he doesn't even know any scales. He said when he plays a guitar solo he's playing off of chord shapes.

Good advice, Most jazz experts will say much the same thing: it's chords you should think about not scales.

 

 

[Pine Apple Slim]

Back when I was a lad we all said it was D but I played the G maj scale when I played the lead.

Later on after some edjumacation I decided its in D Mixolydian. Because I still hear D as the tonal center but the notes are Mixo.

Key sigatures are for note readers and writers. Not always the same thing as the tonal center.

 

 

[onelife]

Back when I was a lad we all said it was D but I played the G maj scale when I played the lead.

Later on after some edjumacation I decided its in D Mixolydian. Because I still hear D as the tonal center but the notes are Mixo.

Key sigatures are for note readers and writers. Not always the same thing as the tonal center.

 

 

I see it as a I-IV progression in the key of D with the C chord subbing for a I7

 

Instead of playing a typical D - D7 - G it's more like D - D11/C - G

[Vito Corleone]

 

The real issue about this tune is the very fact that the key is (clearly, whether you like it or not) ambiguous. That's what's interesting. To me, anyhow .

 

 

And, 40 years hence, is probably about the ONLY thing still interesting about this tune....

[1001gear]

The first chord of a song (or chord loop) is not a reliable guide to key.

 

It is in this case.

______________________

You don't really need to justify your opinion. You just need to admit that it's an opinion

 

You just expressed an opinion as an order. Makes you the bonehead.

 

______________________

The point you're missing (or seem to be missing) is that your opinion is not fact. All you're doing is constantly repeating your opinion' date=' - [i']as if it's fact[/i] - which makes the whole thing circular. (I'm getting a whiff of Nigel Tufnel...)

 

See previous.

______________________.

FACT: some people hear the key as D' date=' some hear it as G.[/quote']

 

Yes John this is the only bit of intel the question has generated and as to subjectivity, bah. Subjectivity is a word used by lawyers to beat fraud convictions.

 

 

 

 

[JonR]

And, 40 years hence, is probably about the ONLY thing still interesting about this tune....

 

Agreed.

[1001gear]

I like jangling on it. Learned the cowboy version because of this dumb thread.

[JonR]

 

It is in this case.

IN YOUR OPINION.

 

 

You just expressed an opinion as an order.

Where did I do that? I don't really have an opinion on this tune (except that it's a rather tedious chunk of southern rock, with chauvinistic lyrics - YMMV ).

I have no opinion on the key.

I hear it as G, but that doesn't mean it IS in G, or even that I think it's in G. I'm not going to tell everyone it's in G, just because I hear it that way. (Once upon a time I did, because I was simply unaware that other people heard it differently. As soon as I discovered how many people honestly heard it as D, I took a step back, and listened again. I still heard it as G, but I could tell what they meant; I found I could make myself hear D as key centre, if I listened to certain aspects of the song differently.)

What's an undeniable fact is that different people hear it different ways. I think it's worth seeing it in that light. I found it a very educational (ear-opening) experience.

 

Your position - correct me if I'm wrong - is that it IS in D, and that - therefore - everyone who thinks it's in G must be wrong.

If that were the case - or even if the opposite were the case - there would be objective evidence we could draw on, to prove it. Something inherent in the music that could be measured objectively. There isn't.

If it was classical music, then there would be (and the answer would be G in that case, because of the clear V-IV-I plagal cadence in G major). But this isn't classical music, it's rock, which has a flexible approach to key, and commonly (though not always) flattens the 7th of the scale. Looking at the chords, that makes D mixolydian theoretically possible; at least as possible as G major.

But of course key is not determined by looking at chords; it's determined by listening to the music, letting our ears tell us where the point of rest is in the sequence.

Your ears tell you - quite clearly - that it's D.

(You don't have to invoke the first chord; that's no proof, because there is no proof. The final chord would be a better one to point to, but of course, the original fades out. And we know what chord they finished on when they played it live. That's of no concern. It's how we hear it that matters.)

My ears tell me it's G.

The difference between us is that I'm quite prepared to say that's only the way it sounds to me. I don't go on to assert my impression as fact.

Makes you the bonehead.

Personal insults help how? (And in that spirit I withdraw my Nigel Tufnel comment...)

See previous.

Quite. I still see repeated assertions that the song "is" in D, expressed as if you believe it's a fact. That's what I find irritating - that and the repetitiveness, I guess.

Yes John this is the only bit of intel the question has generated

Right. You accept that opinion is divided on the matter.

But what do you make of that intel? You think all those who say it's in G are wrong?

Why do you think they hear it as G? Aren't you interested?

I mean, there's no reason why you should care. (Unless you want to enter a meaningful debate, that is...)

But the difference of opinion is the only thing that interests me.

I'm not arguing against it being in D.

I'm not arguing for it being in G.

I'm arguing that it can't be proved either way. There is no possible objective proof, because all of it depends on listening (not measuring with machines), and our ears are the very things that are disagreeing. That's what I find interesting.

It might be the "only bit of intel", but I think it's pretty significant. It ought to give all muscians pause for thought (IMO that is).

and as to subjectivity, bah. Subjectivity is a word used by lawyers to beat fraud convictions.

"Subjectivity bah" hardly deals with the issue.

(Is it really "a word used by lawyers to beat fraud convictions"? I can't see how that would work.... In other kinds of cases, maybe... not that it's of any relevance anyway.)

In what way might the way we hear music be objective? I'm intrigued....

 

As I've said before, I'm not trying to convince you you're hearing it wrong. You're not. Neither am I. We have different perceptions of it, equally valid.

 

Our perceptions of the world - not just key in music - are not facts. They are just perceptions, ways we interpret sensory stimuli. Generally, most people agree on most things; but that still doesn't make majority opinion fact. It just produces workable assumptions. With most music, most listeners will agree on key (or will agree on ambiguity of key). This is a bizarre tune, because listeners don't agree, but many also can't agree that the key is ambiguous. So the debate often gets heated, and circular.

We all hear things differently. Sometimes we don't realise; sometimes we do, and accept it. Sometimes we can change the way we hear things, by paying a different kind of attention. I regard that as an important skill for a musician, which is why I tried to hear it in D, way back then. But there's no ultimate correct answer. Just more possibilities.

 

Of course, I realise I'm wasting my time. You are too, but not at nearly as much length as I am!

 

[1001gear]

 

 

 

 

You seem preoccupied with "wut it izz"`repeatedly redetailing your impeccable Devil's advocacy. A cozy spot don't make you correct sir. { see previous comparison to "Big Bang Theory" ]

 

You in fact attempted imposing your will by first pretending that I can't allow for differences of perspective and then demanding that "I NEED to" lol and then feigned ignorance in your response.

 

I stand on the subjectivity; { a word YOU brought up } Too often it's cover for those selling suck.

 

Also if you want to quote classical theory, the F# in never goes up to G; functionally rendering it a non leading tone; rendering D Major a non V, chord.rendering Gmajor a IV chord.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[1001gear]

and D. It's even a pedal point.

[JonR]

You seem preoccupied with "wut it izz"`

Not me. You're the one that keeps insisting it "is" in D.

 

It's true I'm pre-occupied, foolishly, but not with what the key is. I'm pre-occupied with your strange mode of argument, which I find hard to follow.

You in fact attempted imposing your will by first pretending that I can't allow for differences of perspective and then demanding that "I NEED to" lol and then feigned ignorance in your response.

OK, I shouldn't have said you "need" to do anything. You don't. My apologies.

As for feigning ignorance, I didn't do that. I might have been truly ignorant (or forgetful), but I don't know what comment you're referring to.

I stand on the subjectivity; { a word YOU brought up } Too often it's cover for those selling suck.

OK, but so what?

 

It seems to me that the widespread disagreement and confusion about what key this tune is in is evidence enough that it's subjective. The disagreement is not down to a misunderstanding about what "key" is. It's a disagreement about aural perception of tonal centre, which is indeed what "key" means. If people hear it differently, then - by definition - it's subjective.

 

Can I take it that you deny it's subjective? If so, in what way could we objectively determine it?

Also if you want to quote classical theory, the F# in never goes up to G; functionally rendering it a non leading tone; rendering D Major a non V, chord.rendering Gmajor a IV chord.

If you know about classical theory, you'll have heard of plagal cadences (IV-I). Plagal cadences (in major keys) are extremely popular in rock. At least as popular as mixolydian mode.

In any case, appeals to theory of any kind don't help us establish the key. It could be a V-IV-I in G major, it could be a I-bVII-IV in D mixolydian. Theory will support either interpretation. Classical theory would be more familiar with the former, but it's not really relevant anyway. This isn't classical music, as I'm sure you agree.

We come back, all the time, to subjective perception of key centre.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JonR]

and D. It's even a pedal point.

Dominant pedals are very common.

(The very reason the word "dominant" is used for the 5th scale degree is because historically it often was a kind of pedal point, or constant focal point dominating a melody. The "reciting tone" of most of the original church modes. It wasn't always the 5th degree, but it was never the same thing as the keynote, or "finalis".)

 

IOW, theory is of no help - to either of is. It's just labels for the sounds - or rather, for the way the sounds are perceived. Frequency can obviously be objectively measured, but the sensation of key can't. You hear it in D, so for you it's a tonic pedal. For anyone hearing it in G, it's a dominant pedal.

Doesn't get us anywhere.

 

 

[jclements]

http://xkcd.com/386/