What key?

[1001gear]

No apology warranted. Just saying that by traditional musical analysis and musical sense, the answer is D. Juggling the facts to represent G results in an incomplete musical fragment.by comparison.

 

As to theory, vs communication, picture this fictitious garage band rehearsal:

 

Singer turns to the guitarist and says. " this one's in A."

 

Guitarist grabs a barred A and starts strumming.

 

Singer goes, " the other A"

 

Guitarist plays a barred D and they all wail happily into the night.

 

Theory is mostly talk based on observation and as long as everybody's on the same page, BFD.

 

Still, per the topic of this thread, the argument for G is so weak that people are on, " Man it's my life and I'll call it anything I want."

 

[onelife]

No apology warranted. Just saying that by traditional musical analysis and musical sense, the answer is D. Juggling the facts to represent G results in an incomplete musical fragment.by comparison.

 

I hear the song in question in the key of D. To me it is a simple I, IV progression with the passing chord bVII acting like a I7.

 

I don't make the rules nor do I really understand them but I adhere to the conventions because it helps me in my work.

 

In the end we all play by ear - if it sounds good then it is good.

 

 

[RGfretter]

 

I hear the song in question in the key of D. To me it is a simple I, IV progression with the passing chord bVII acting like a I7.

 

I don't make the rules nor do I really understand them but I adhere to the conventions because it helps me in my work.

 

In the end we all play by ear - if it sounds good then it is good.

 

 

Good ear! It's in D!

[JonR]

Hi guys, me again, back to annoy y'all....

I still don't think it matters what key the song technically is in.

Absolutely. As long as we all agree on the chords, and we do.

PLAYBOY: "Did you put Aeolian cadences in 'It Won't Be Long?'"

 

LENNON: "To this day, I don't have any idea what they are. They sound like exotic birds."

Right. But the fact that a musician has no idea of the names of the sounds he is using doesn't mean we aren't entitled to name them. We can describe birdsong in ways the bird obviously wouldn't comprehend.

The fact that Lennon didn't know he was using Aeolian cadences doesn't mean he wasn't using them.

(In fact, he was much more fond of mixolydian mode, and he didn't know that either.)

 

Just saying that by traditional musical analysis and musical sense, the answer is D. Juggling the facts to represent G results in an incomplete musical fragment.by comparison

Sorry, but I really can't let this go. This is total nonsense (although I don't really know why I care so much).

It's in D because it sounds to you like it's in D. End of.

You can appeal all you like to "traditional musical analysis and musical sense", but those things can equally justify it being in G.

"Traditional musical analysis" could easily look at those chords and say "V-IV-I in G major - obviously."

"Musical sense" could also come to the same conclusion.

But we both know key is not determined by looking at the chords. It's determined by listening.

And we also both know there are two ways of hearing the key. Some hear D, some hear G. (Enough hear it as G to prove that hearing it as D is not objective.)

 

Whatever we hear, we then use traditional analysis to work from there. But the analysis doesn't prove what we hear, nor does it justify what we hear. It depends on what we hear.

 

Also, the idea of an "incomplete musical fragment" is irrelevant. If you hear it as I-bVII-IV, then by definition it's incomplete, ending on IV. Ending on G (arguably) makes it complete. It's the fact you don't hear it ending there - it doesn't sound complete to you - is what makes you say it's in D.

But it doesn't matter anyway. The chord loop is a cycle, which never ends. (Except live, of course, when they ended on G - which still doesn't prove anything.)

[1001gear]

It's D because the tensions and whatever voice leading there is form a D cycle. Taken as G you barely have a musical dohickey.

Period.

[JonR]

It's D because the tensions and whatever voice leading there is form a D cycle. Taken as G you barely have a musical dohickey.

Period.

You have a simple V-IV-I in G major. As a "musical dohickey", that could hardly be clearer.

There's not a lot of voice-leading, as far as I can see, but what there is is inconclusive as to key anyway.

 

And it's beside the point. We judge key simply by listening. It's quite valid to hear the key centre as D, not G, because mixolydian mode is as common a sound in rock as the major key. These 3 chords frequently occur in a D mixolydian context, as often as in a G major context.

One could argue the C is some kind of embellishment of the D - as if the "Dsus/C" is performing a secondary dominant function, V/IV - but that only supports the idea of D being the key if you hear D as the key. (There is no primary dominant - A - anywhere, which would help to confirm D as key.)

 

IOW, arguing for D from theoretical principles puts you on much weaker ground than using those principles to argue for G. The theoretical argument for G is much plainer.

 

But I still wouldn't invoke that argument myself, because I know that determining key is nothing to do with theory. It's to do with how it sounds, subjectively, to each of us personally - which is determined by our individual musical histories and the listening prejudices which we all have. The more prepared you are to hear mixolydian mode, the more you'll accept D as key centre here without question. The more used you are to hearing major key sequences, the more likely it is you'll hear that opening D-C as a V-IV, confirmed by the G. From the latter perspective, D would need to assert itself a little more strongly to emerge as keynote.

 

As you yourself said ealier (and I totally agree here): "It's already been submitted and obvious in and of itself that you can make anything of SHA. End." That would have been a suitable "period" for this thread.

You only have to say you hear it in D. No quarrel with that. For you, it "is" in D. For me, it isn't (or is at least much less securely D than it sounds to you). Doesn't make you right and me wrong.

What would make me wrong would be to say it was in G "because it's a IV-V-I".

Likewise, you can't say "it's in D because it's a I-bVII-IV" (or any other theoretical justification). The cause-effect is vice versa. The fact you hear it in D is what makes it I-bVII-IV, because that's how you describe what you're hearing.

I hear it in G, which is why I call it "V-IV-I".

 

[1001gear]

A simple V IV I is just a cadence. It doesn't constitute a "key" of anything. It doesn't even resolve correctly. Missing is material surrounding this frag that would set the tonality in G. As it is, droning away dysfunctionally in G defaults to the more complete D tonality.

[onelife]

The fact that Lennon didn't know he was using Aeolian cadences doesn't mean he wasn't using them.

(In fact, he was much more fond of mixolydian mode, and he didn't know that either.)

 

What I was getting at is that Lennon didn't consciously set out to use an Aeolian cadence. "They were chords just like any other chords."

 

Whatever we hear, we then use traditional analysis to work from there. But the analysis doesn't prove what we hear, nor does it justify what we hear. It depends on what we hear.

 

As you stated, the music comes first then the analysis however, we learn from the analysis and can use that knowledge as a tool when creating music or communicating musical ideas.

 

[JonR]

A simple V IV I is just a cadence. It doesn't constitute a "key" of anything.

Of course it does.

It doesn't even resolve correctly.

Not heard of a plagal cadence?

Missing is material surrounding this frag that would set the tonality in G.

What exactly is missing in your view? What needs to "surround" this presentation of the G major scale, in the form of its three primary chords? (I grant an F# is missing from the opening riff, but it's there once the track gets under way.)

I'm teasing of course, because all that matters is you hearing it in D. You're just floundering trying to justify it theoretically - or, worse, trying to use theory to "disprove" G, when (a) it can't be done, and (b) you don't need to.

 

[JonR]

 

What I was getting at is that Lennon didn't consciously set out to use an Aeolian cadence. "They were chords just like any other chords."

 

 

 

As you stated, the music comes first then the analysis however, we learn from the analysis and can use that knowledge as a tool when creating music or communicating musical ideas.

Agreed!

 

 

[1001gear]

Of course it does.

Not heard of a plagal cadence?

What exactly is missing in your view? What needs to "surround" this presentation of the G major scale, in the form of its three primary chords? (I grant an F# is missing from the opening riff, but it's there once the track gets under way.)

I'm teasing of course, because all that matters is you hearing it in D. You're just floundering trying to justify it theoretically - or, worse, trying to use theory to "disprove" G, when (a) it can't be done, and (b) you don't need to.

 

The question still remains, "What key?" . Not ,"Hey guys, what are the options for perceiving this?" . What I hear is D because per the question it IS in D. What is missing is more material. For simplicity's sake, Twinkle Little Star - in G on either side might supply enough context.

[1001gear]

Three Blind Mice in G works better.

[JonR]

 

The question still remains, "What key?" . Not ,"Hey guys, what are the options for perceiving this?" . What I hear is D because per the question it IS in D.

No, you've still got it back to front.

You hear it in D, therefore for you is IS in D, no question.

You can' t seem to separate the objective facts (the notes and chords) from your perception (of the tonal centre they seem to imply). You can't seem to imagine it any other way - at least the language you're using suggests that. (Whereas earlier you seemed to accept that we can make of it what we like.)

 

I used to be just the same, when I assumed it was in G. It never occurred to me there could be any question to it. I heard it in G, and - whaddya know! - the theory seemed to support my perception. IOW, I might also have invoked theory in support of my perception: "it's in G because blah blah V-IV-I blah blah...". But I would have been wrong to do so. That's not why it's in G. That's how one would describe it IF it was in G - if one heard it in G.

Likewise, if one hears it in D, then one describes it as I-bVII-IV in D mixolydian. Again, that it isn't why it's in D.

It's possible to use theoretical terms (quite correctly) to describe any way we might perceive a piece of music.

 

The original debate opened my ears. Of course to begin with I thought those saying it was in D were just fools; they must be misunderstanding theory in some way - eg assuming the first chord of a sequence had to be the key chord. It stunned me when I realise they actually heard D as key centre.

Even though plenty of people joined in and agreed with me it was in G, it wasn't (quite) as many that asserted it was D - some of whom were highly experienced and knowledgeable musicians.

That made me question my perception, and made me listen again. It still sounded like G to me, overall, but I found I could hear what they meant by the D centre. It seemed they were (a) listening to different parts of the song - or giving different parts higher tonal priority - and (b) making different assumptions from me according to their different listening and playing experiences. Eg, "this is rock music, man! Rock is often mixolydian!" (I know that as well as they do, this one just didn't quite fit the bill for me. They were used to expecting mixolydian, so were prepared to hear a bVII chord. Like I said before, I just heard it resembling the last 4 bars of a blues, due to my own listening experience and prejudices. Ergo, V-IV-I-I.)

 

But hey, I've said all this before, and it doesn't seem to cut any ice....

What is missing is more material. For simplicity's sake, Twinkle Little Star - in G on either side might supply enough context.

Sorry, don't follow. Hard to envisage Twinkle Twinkle being ambiguous as to key centre.

Happy Birthday might be a better example: starting on the 5th of the key, which might (at a stretch) sound like the tonic.

 

 

[jclements]

OH. MY. DOG.

[1001gear]

@ Jon

 

Actually Three Blind Mice in G works pretty good. Using open chords and good voice leading sets up G so when you do morph into SHA it falls quite magically onto G. You can then go back to TBM and have the basis for a cool tune in G.

 

IT WORKS BECAUSE THE G TONALITY HAS BEEN PROPERLY ESTABLISHED by the time SHA comes around.

 

SHA by itself is in D.

[1001gear]

Also if you'd pay attention instead of revving your intellect you'd have read that the premise for Twinkle Twinkle is a simple utility prog to establish G as an intro to SHA. NOT some retarded example of another SHA.

[RGfretter]

To be song specific, where does the progression....F.C...? Go to?

 

Hmm? Also, you have never spoke to the fact that the solo starts with a D chord!

 

What does this tell us?

 

Get off the soft (it's in G) train and open your eyes. Your opinions are not fooling anyone...you are fixed on it being in G. Grow a little, and learn from your mistakes.

[onelife]

I'll play the song in whatever key you would like me to play in.

 

If I got up to play it and someone said "Sweet Home in D" or "Sweet Home in G" I think I'd be safe playing it in the original key.

 

If, however, the singer changed the key to fit the voice and said "Sweet Home in A" I would ask "What's the first chord?" or simply wait for the song to start and listen for it.

 

 

Either way it would work and ultimately render this entire "discussion" moot.

 

[JonR]

To be song specific, where does the progression....F.C...? Go to?

 

Hmm? Also, you have never spoke to the fact that the solo starts with a D chord!

 

What does this tell us?

It tells us exactly that. Neither is evidence for key centre.

Starting chords mean nothing regarding key.

Get off the soft (it's in G) train and open your eyes.

You mean ears, surely?

Your opinions are not fooling anyone...you are fixed on it being in G. Grow a little, and learn from your mistakes.

Ignoring the patronising tone, I'm not about to repeat what I've said. If you read my posts, you'll see I'm not at all fixed on it being in G.Certainly a lot less fixed than you are on it being in D.

As I explained above, I opened my ears a few years ago now. I suggest you try opening yours. Not to change how you hear it, but to try to hear it how others hear it. I did.

 

And I'm not really expressing an "opinion" here. It's a fact that some people hear it in D and some hear it in G. All I've ever been doing in this "debate" is trying to examine that fact. How can one group of people be wrong and the others right? That seems much less likely than the other conclusion: perception of key is subjective.

 

 

 

[JonR]

I'll play the song in whatever key you would like me to play in.

 

If I got up to play it and someone said "Sweet Home in D" or "Sweet Home in G" I think I'd be safe playing it in the original key.

 

If, however, the singer changed the key to fit the voice and said "Sweet Home in A" I would ask "What's the first chord?" or simply wait for the song to start and listen for it.

 

 

Either way it would work and ultimately render this entire "discussion" moot.

Absolutely!

 

 

[JonR]

@ Jon

 

Actually Three Blind Mice in G works pretty good. Using open chords and good voice leading sets up G so when you do morph into SHA it falls quite magically onto G. You can then go back to TBM and have the basis for a cool tune in G.

 

IT WORKS BECAUSE THE G TONALITY HAS BEEN PROPERLY ESTABLISHED by the time SHA comes around.

Sorry I misunderstood the Twinkle Twinkle/Three Blind Mice as a "utility prog" idea. I take your point about establishing key first.

 

My own ear doesn't require that for SHA, of course. The opening chord of a sequence holds no weight for me (aurally), unless it's held for rather more than 2 beats - and unless it's confirmed later in the sequence; which - for my ears - it isn't, quite.

 

I could invent a similar "utility prog" - which of course you don't need - to establish the key of D for my ears, but it would probably be at the end of the chord loop: returning to D sooner, or even adding an A to really nail it.

But actually all it would take would be for the D chord to last twice as long as the G.

SHA by itself is in D.

LOL. You don't say! I never realised you felt that way...

 

 

[1001gear]

Still @ Jon,

 

It occurs to me that much as you mince posts ignoring the gist and play connect the dots with only the points you wish to refute, you fail to address the basic musical elements present in preponderance for D and insist it's all how the individual hears it. That's not key, that's perception. And once again the only question posed was What Key?

 

[JonR]

Still I'm drawn back, like a moth to the flame....

 

I'm insisting "it's all how the individual hears it" because it clearly is. The debate proves that. Nothing to do with my opinion (or yours). You only have to look at the various threads, not just this one, but elsewhere (at least two on TGP). Let alone the original argument within the band. There might be fewer people who say G than say D, but it's still an appreciable amount.

Are you saying that all the people who hear it in G don't exist? Or are you saying they are all wrong? (Or they're all internet trolls?) You've never answered that one, and prefer to continue to insist that your perception is correct - ie, that it's not a subjective perception, it's an objective fact.

I don't mind you saying I'm wrong, or that I'm ignoring points you are making (I think I've addressed them, although I've sometimes misunderstood what you're getting at). What bothers me is you pretending the "G camp" doesn't exist - as if you really can't comprehend how anyone could hear it in G. It just doesn't make any kind of sense to you.

 

I'm really not concerned with all the points supporting D as key centre, or those supporting G. There are plenty of "basic musical elements" that point either way. I can pick mine same as you can pick yours, and obviously we are going to pick the ones that support what we each hear, because that's how we make sense of what we hear. That's a waste of time.

As I keep trying to say, the only interesting thing about this (for me) is that different people do hear it differently. But you seem to want to deny that's even the case.

 

If I come back, I think it might be with some statistics about the D camp and G camp, how many in each, in the various threads. (Yeah, I'm that anal.... )

[onelife]

perception is really all there is - in everyhting

[1001gear]

@ Jon

 

Not ignoring the G camp. I proved to myself that If G is properly established, SHA lands very sweetly on G. Without the TBM intro and outro however, all there is is D dorian with the Major I sub. ( I prefer this orientation since everything lays diatonically with only the one accidental. ) Ironically that one sharp is the only case for G but since the F# never resolves to any kind of G let alone upwards in typical leading tone fashion, the key can't be G.

Those that hear G are somehow imprinted with the plagal sense of resolution and, much as I spoke of you are ignoring the body of factual conditions for D, hear G. Fine. I've never argued individuality. Hear what you like. Synesthesians, go ahead and hallucinate. The key is still D (Dorian, Major I sub) Actually maybe a mode can't be a key but I find that exclusion more ridiculous than SHA is in G.

 

Incidentally I haven't seen any of those original What Key threads and fortunately am not curious.

 

@ onelife

 

Light enters the eyes which focus the rays on the retina which sends electrical "equivalents" to the visual center which makes the video. How many have wondered where exactly that video is and Hau Da F**K are we able to "view" it?

In His Own Image the Bible says. lol.

 

The key is still D.