What key?

[JonR]

http://xkcd.com/386/

Hey, I was just going to post that cartoon! Thanks for saving me the trouble. (Of course, it could apply to either of us...)

 

[1001gear]

Back @ Jon. It's clear this thread is being modded so suffice it to say you're still on that argument you constructed. I don't care if you hear the thing in C (also possible) All I said is there is no context for G. As far as chord schemes go, SHA is just a doohickey. (see D doohickeys in the parts drawer) It can be used as a connector to and in G or any musical context for that matter but as is, it's just a D doohickey. And no - or yes, I find no interest in any perceived ambiguity - I want to draw an analogy to rock collecting but that is prolly more interesting.

[1001gear]

Oh, and as to G plagal, while it can be an example albeit a very poor one, G is never established so it's not exemplary of tonality. So by preponderance, D.

[JonR]

[sigh] - I don't know why this bothers me so much - and the cartoon ought to have closed the thread - but it's that way you keep saying it's in D, as if you have access to some higher authority, not as if it's your personal opinion. As if you're saying "trust me, it's in D".

 

"it's just a D doohickey"

"there is no context for G"

"G is never established"

 

All opinion, not fact.

(In fact, there certainly is an arguable "context for G": V-IV-I. As for G being "established", that depends on how one hears it. If one hears G as key centre, that means it's "established". That's only an opinion, just as key of D is.)

 

I have no problem with your opinion - many great musical minds are of the same opinion (just as there are many who hear it as G, and yet more who recognise that it's ambiguous) - but clearly you have a problem with it: you can't accept that it's an opinion based on your perception. It's not a provable fact.

 

"I find no interest in any perceived ambiguity" - clearly, because you can't hear it. For you there is no question. Your position (therefore) forces you dismiss all those who hear it differently as either mistaken, stupid, or deaf. I'd like to see you admit that (and maybe suggest which one I am, although your use of "bonehead" a while back probably answers that one...).

 

"I want to draw an analogy to rock collecting but that is prolly more interesting." Draw away then! (you're probably right)

 

[1001gear]

You guys have this tude that you are the word. That cartoon FI. I'm supposed to magically resemble that scenario and defer to YOUR opinion? Grow up Jon. I'm not asking you to sign a confession . What GAF you how I answer the question? I hear D I've presented support for D You keep insisting it's enigma plasma, I need more than a cool riff to start pondering the great mystery. I still hear D.

[Vito Corleone]

 

I still hear D.

 

And no one is trying to make you hear otherwise. If you hear D, it's in D. If you hear G, it's in G. Both are equally supported from a theoretical standpoint. The claim that there is "no context for 'G'" is absurd. What is more common in blues/rock than the I-IV-V progression? Virtually every band that has ever played the song (including the original artists) end their live versions on a big ol' "G" chord because that's where THEY hear the riff resolving. Similarly, the best "context" for 'D' seems to be that the riff starts on that chord.

 

It really seems to be that an equal case can be made for either key and the only determining factor is where the individual listener 'hears' it. YOU still hear D. Awesome. I still hear G. Neither of us is more correct.

 

Unless you want to argue that YOUR ability to hear tonal center is better than mine simply because you're you. And you're NOT doing that.....right?

[JonR]

 

 

And no one is trying to make you hear otherwise. If you hear D, it's in D. If you hear G, it's in G. Both are equally supported from a theoretical standpoint. The claim that there is "no context for 'G'" is absurd. What is more common in blues/rock than the I-IV-V progression? Virtually every band that has ever played the song (including the original artists) end their live versions on a big ol' "G" chord because that's where THEY hear the riff resolving. Similarly, the best "context" for 'D' seems to be that the riff starts on that chord.

 

It really seems to be that an equal case can be made for either key and the only determining factor is where the individual listener 'hears' it. YOU still hear D. Awesome. I still hear G. Neither of us is more correct.

 

Unless you want to argue that YOUR ability to hear tonal center is better than mine simply because you're you. And you're NOT doing that.....right?

Thank you. Very nicely put, and my sentiments entirely.

 

 

[JonR]

You guys have this tude that you are the word. That cartoon FI. I'm supposed to magically resemble that scenario and defer to YOUR opinion? Grow up Jon. I'm not asking you to sign a confession . What GAF you how I answer the question? I hear D I've presented support for D You keep insisting it's enigma plasma, I need more than a cool riff to start pondering the great mystery. I still hear D.

Thank you for finally putting it in those terms: "I hear D".

That's all I wanted to see.

I never suggested you were hearing it wrong. I was only insisting that the key of a piece of music is down to how one hears it, and not down to any objective element in the music.

Most music makes its key clear in the same way to everyone; just occasionally, a song doesn't. But our ears still search for a key centre, they want to hear one. Then it's down to our personal experiences of listening to and playing music. In this case, mine make me hear it as G; yours as D.

 

It seems to me - reading the various debates on the issue - that the more experience one has playing and listening to rock music (relative to other kinds), the more likely one is to hear it as D mixolydian.

The more mixed one's musical background (including pop, jazz, hymns, folk, classical, nursery rhymes, etc), the more likely one will hear it as G major.

That's regardless of one's theoretical knowledge, and also regardless of one's awareness of how common mixolydian mode is in rock music. I know mixolydian is a common rock sound. I just don't hear it (strongly enough) in this song.

That's just me, like I say.

 

 

[1001gear]

@Jon, I hear D because it is D.

 

@Guido, In G you have a V IV I VII V with awful voice leading not a I IV V. Yes the rhythmic orientation counts. Still rock you know.

 

[Vito Corleone]

@Jon, I hear D because it is D.

 

@Guido, In G you have a V IV I VII V with awful voice leading not a I IV V. Yes the rhythmic orientation counts. Still rock you know.

 

Now you're just embarrassing yourself. You hear D because it IS D but you have nothing to support that is IS D besides that you hear it as such. Circular logic, at best.

 

Whether you play the I IV V forwards, backwards or inside out, the 3 chords in the song are still the I IV V for the key of G. And I IV V is the basis of blues/rock. That's at least as supportive an argument for the actual key as anything you've come up with to support the key of D.

 

And no, the rhythmic orientation doesn't count unless your argument is that it's in the key of D because the riff starts on the D chord. Which seems to be what your argument has boiled down do at this point. Which is about as un-theoretical an argument as one can make.

 

Really, this is silly. Everyone acknowledges that the tonal center is individual upon the listener. Except you, you is saying that the actual key is where YOU hear it. There aren't enough facepalms for that sort of arrogance, really.

[1001gear]

 

Now you're just embarrassing yourself. You hear D because it IS D but you have nothing to support that is IS D besides that you hear it as such. Circular logic, at best.

 

Whether you play the I IV V forwards, backwards or inside out, the 3 chords in the song are still the I IV V for the key of G. And I IV V is the basis of blues/rock. That's at least as supportive an argument for the actual key as anything you've come up with to support the key of D.

 

And no, the rhythmic orientation doesn't count unless your argument is that it's in the key of D because the riff starts on the D chord. Which seems to be what your argument has boiled down do at this point. Which is about as un-theoretical an argument as one can make.

 

Really, this is silly. Everyone acknowledges that the tonal center is individual upon the listener. Except you, you is saying that the actual key is where YOU hear it. There aren't enough facepalms for that sort of arrogance, really.

 

 

Playing Devil's advocate does not make you correct and attempting to mandate WHAT ONE KNOWS is clearly NAZI and retarded at best.

 

You are incorect on chord scheme as well. There is a distinct functional difference between chord PRO- gression and chord RETRO - gression. Clearly the latter in G.

Further, there are voicing, doubling, and rhythmic components to cite a few, that serve to detail the functional implications and yes, PERCEPTION of a musical bit, tune, passage, symphony, pro OR retro. Further, these are basic details albeit of the formal variety.

 

It says MUSIC THEORY LESSONS on the shingle. Those points, in use for centuries, should be addressed as well.

 

Anyway those details however incidentally formed simply clunk into place in D.

[Vito Corleone]

 

attempting to mandate WHAT ONE KNOWS is clearly NAZI and retarded at best.

 

Yes, it is. You should stop doing it.

~~There is a distinct functional difference between chord PRO- gression and chord RETRO - gression. Clearly the latter in G.

 

And this is where your entire argument consistently boils down to: since the riff starts on a D chord, the key of the song MUST be D. Which has virtually nothing to do with music theory. You should stop citing it as your support.

 

The shingle isn't helping you. Anyone can burn some letter into wood.

 

[1001gear]

Tit for tat doesn't make you correct. Certainly doesn't improve music. For all this subjectivity crap being expounded, you guys seem more concerned with what I think than any musically relevant issue.

 

As far as "first chord" - and I read the Bad Charts thread someplace here, Are you aware that theory applies to rhythm as well? There are other basic conditions present in SHA. Regardless, it's a pop tune. The down beat is everything. The dancin fools (of which I'm not a member - I could be totally rong ) are steppin to the D.

 

The argument seems not What Key? but Pseudo Intellects vs I said it's D. Laughable.

[JonR]

I really was trying to stop flogging this dead horse. but...

Playing Devil's advocate does not make you correct and attempting to mandate WHAT ONE KNOWS is clearly NAZI and retarded at best.

I seem to remember a time when the accusation of NAZI signalled an automatic closure of a thread. We live in hope...

You are incorect on chord scheme as well. There is a distinct functional difference between chord PRO- gression and chord RETRO - gression. Clearly the latter in G.

Further, there are voicing, doubling, and rhythmic components to cite a few, that serve to detail the functional implications and yes, PERCEPTION of a musical bit, tune, passage, symphony, pro OR retro. Further, these are basic details albeit of the formal variety.

 

It says MUSIC THEORY LESSONS on the shingle. Those points, in use for centuries, should be addressed as well.

Seeing as this is indeed a theory board (although you've slightly misread the title) I think it's important - for any bemused readers of this thread - that you cite sources for your understanding of theory. It doesn't match the theory I've studied, in any standard book for last few decades.

 

In particular, you ought to know about the plagal cadence. That's a distinct possibility here. IOW, IV-I is not a "retrogression", it's an accepted and common cadence, through all those centuries you're talking about.

 

That's still not an argument for confirming the key as G, of course. Just stating that - if one hears the key as G - then conventional theory can be invoked to support that. Just as it can for the D mixolydian option.

 

Theory can never rule out a perceptible aural effect in music. Theory can't tell you you're not hearing what you're hearing. It's theory's business to describe any aural effect in music, especially the common ones.

If the key is D, then it's "mixolydian" mode, I-VII-IV

If the key is G, than it's "G major key", "V-IV-I"

Conventional theory is quite happy with both options. One doesn't even have to appeal to rock music's own non-classical practices, which can have their own theoretical interpretations.

Anyway those details however incidentally formed simply clunk into place in D.

Via your ears, yes.

 

 

[1001gear]

It's funny how you imply the high ground. Miffed are we? I admire your musical reason, but seriously you're no authority.

Incidentally V to IV is retrograde. As would the sequence VII V IV. That I follows does not make it a PROgression.

Also in D mixo, what of the F chord? I'm liking dorian with a major I sub. Then the F becomes a III sub for V.

 

Also improvising in a D tonality has a very natural pop/country feel.

[Vito Corleone]

Tit for tat doesn't make you correct. Certainly doesn't improve music. For all this subjectivity crap being expounded, you guys seem more concerned with what I think than any musically relevant issue.

 

Again, you seem to have it backwards. The only one obsessed with what you think seems to be you, who insists that what you hear is the only 'truth' because you hear it. And anyone else who hears it differently is wrong.

 

The argument seems not What Key? but Pseudo Intellects vs I said it's D. Laughable.

 

Again, the only laughable thing here is you accusing others of what you are doing yourself.

[1001gear]

Trying to echo at me does not constitute discussion. You just wanna win. Pretty infantile.

Incidentally I have found a bit of support for G. The object of the lyric "Alabama" lands on the G preceded by "home" on C. Pretty good alignment. That it's in D adds a touch of homeboy wryness. Speculation of course.

[Vito Corleone]

Trying to echo at me does not constitute discussion. You just wanna win. Pretty infantile.

 

I'm not trying to echo you. Just pointing out that you're being hugely hypocritical here by engaging in the exact same actions you accuse others of doing. Including being the one who just wants to win. You're the only one who doesn't seem to understand that there isn't only one "correct" key. Everyone else is saying that you are just as right as they are. You're the only one insisting on having the only 'right' answer to the question. Which position is more infantile?

 

 

Incidentally I have found a bit of support for G. The object of the lyric "Alabama" lands on the G preceded by "home" on C. Pretty good alignment.

Yes. It was pointed out to you pages ago that the fact that the riff RESOLVES to G is support of it being in the key of G. That's why so many people hear it as such. That you just now "found" this bit of support when it was pointed out to you long ago is telling, however.

[1001gear]

It's in fact you on the cheap twisties. I'm merely stating the case for D.

 

As for the LYRIC landing on G, I didn't notice any post to that effect. The details of your opinion hold only a general concern. I don't begrudge your position; neither do I give it much concern. It just seemed cool how the lyric lands and since I'm in D, the theory is homeboy sarcasm. I have no way of knowing and frankly BFD

 

Nuther thing coming into view is all these rhetorical threads about the pace here, where'd everybody go, man this sucks etc... I bet the" disagreers must die" tactics sure helped thin out the ranks.

[Vito Corleone]

It's in fact you on the cheap twisties. I'm merely stating the case for D.

 

No, you went much further than that which is where you got into problems. You not only stated the case for D, but insisted that those who stated the case for G were wrong instead of acknowledging that both conclusions have good theoretical support.

 

As for the LYRIC landing on G, I didn't notice any post to that effect.

The posts to that effect were those stating that the riff resolves to G. Part of the reason it does is because the melody (and the lyric attached to the melody) do so. The fact that it's part of the word "Alabama" that hits the G chord is irrelevant. What matters is that the melodic phrase ends on that chord. The same thing happens on the next line with the word "blue". The "object of the lyric" has nothing to do with the key of the song except maybe that it is one reason why some people HEAR one key or another. Again---it's a subjective thing.

 

But it does seem that you're finally coming around to admitting that Which is a good thing.

[JonR]

It's funny how you imply the high ground. Miffed are we? I admire your musical reason, but seriously you're no authority.

Incidentally V to IV is retrograde. As would the sequence VII V IV. That I follows does not make it a PROgression.

There's a touch of semantics here, in that a "progression" doesn't have to be in one direction all the time.

Yes, IV-I is "retrograde", but it can be called a "retrograde progression".

In any case, the point is that IV-I is - by definition! - a resolution to the tonic (plagal cadence); otherwise it would be numbered "I-V".

The fact that it's the opposite direction to V-I is neither here nor there. (No one is suggesting the key is C... )

Likewise, saying "V to IV is retrograde" is accepting that those two chords (D-C) are V and IV, and that therefore G is I, the tonic. Seeing as that's not your position, the theory is not helping you here.

Also in D mixo, what of the F chord?

bIII. Borrowed from the parallel minor. Or mode mixture if you prefer.

In G major, of course, it's bVII, same principle

I'm liking dorian with a major I sub.

Seems a quirky view to me, seeing as mixolydian is otherwise the stronger modal feel (assuming D is tonal centre of course). But I'm OK with that.

It's really a blues thing, of course, mixing major and minor tonalities, or mixolydian and dorian co-existing.

Then the F becomes a III sub for V.

?? Not sure I want to ask this, but how does III sub for V?

Are you thinking of Am as V of D mixolydian? or of D dorian?

I can see the note-sharing principle, but F doesn't normally sub for Am. Am can sub for F in key of F major.

Also improvising in a D tonality has a very natural pop/country feel.

In relation to these chords, sure.

 

 

[1001gear]

No. I started getting insults. I don't in fact recall condemning those of in G. I do think G is off the wall feel wise but It's not like I can outlaw the analysis.

 

And back to the Lyric, I speak only of the allusion of "home Alabama" landing on the G. The melody in and of itself can be analyzed as

 

"Sweet home A ..." I chord

 

And 'labama - VI chord

 

It's of course harmonized with a G; IV chord in my analysis.

[Vito Corleone]

 

No. I started getting insults. I don't in fact recall condemning those of in G.

 

You should re-read the first page then. You started by stating it as "D" with a matter-of-fact "done" attitude that left no room for discussion and then called the case made for "G" to be "retarded". The thread then went downhill from there.

 

And back to the Lyric, I speak only of the allusion of "home Alabama" landing on the G.

 

 

Yes. The lyrics and the melody end with a thud on the G chord on every line of the song. Hence the reason it feels like a resolution to G. There's no melodic or rhythmic compulsion to get back to that D chord. It all leads to the G.

 

Whether that defines the key or not? Debatable. That that's the reason G is the tonal center for so many people? Absolutely.

 

But let's make it more simple: if the tonal center is, in fact, D, then why does every band who has ever played the song end the song on G? Have you ever heard a band finish the song on D? Not saying there isn't one somewhere in the world who does it, but 99.9% of bands who play this song (and there have been thousands) end it on G.

[JonR]

Personally, I think the melody is mostly centered on D. The "resolution" to G is not all the time, and is mostly a brief drop to the chord root on a weak syllable - eg, the last "-a" of "Alabama". When he sings "comin' home to you", the "you" is clearly D. Similarly, most lines that end on the beat end on D, not G. It's when the last line of a word has two syllables (strong-weak) that he drops to the G on the second one - and it's almost spoken, hardly sung.

 

IOW, I don't think the vocal is any guide to key centre. (Lots of people hear its D focus as an argument for D as the key.)

For me, it's the chords that say "G", especially the bass line, in which G is the lowest note.

The vocal is really just moving around the easiest chord tones for the singer - including the D as add9 on the C - with a bluesy flattened 3rd on the D chord - which is another reason the "D camp" give for D as keynote (it's sung like a blues in D, partly anyhow).

IOW, there's a definite D drone present, almost all the way: it's a chord tone on all 3 chords, and the singer instinctively picks up on that (it sounds like a vocal which was improvised to the chord sequence, to begin with), in the same way as he picks up on the G chord root at the end of phrases. Chord root, not necessarily keynote.

 

For my ears, of course, that's not enough to suggest a key centre of D, because I'm hearing those chord roots relentlessly dropping to G every time (and staying on G twice as long as each of the other chords). So I just hear the high D note as a dominant pedal.

 

But I fully understand how others hear the key as D. IMO, it's when you compare this song with other songs with similar sequences and different melodies that helps isolate just what it is that drives the perception of key: that it's a combination of all the notes (melody, chords, bass) and their interaction and rhythmic placement and value.

Eg, if the sequence ran D-C-G-D (2 beats each) - as many rock songs do - I'd say D mixolydian, hands down, no contest. Or, of course, if it ran D-D-C-G, another common mixolydian sequence. It's because mixolydian is such a standard rock sound that a major key tonic needs a little support, a little extra emphasis.

But there's still, on top of that, the subjective individual perception of that interaction, and the way different listeners are drawn to different elements of the total sound in making their judgement. Normally, key centre is signalled clearly enough that there can be little disagreement. This is one of those rare cases where it can be heard two ways.

 

As for improvising on it, Ed King makes G work, by riding roughshod over the D chord, sticking with G major pent, ignoring the chord tones. It works for me, because I'm expecting G as keynote, and Dsus4 is just fine, a tension awaiting resolution (via the C). G major pent as an overall choice follows the intro riff, and is a standard country-rock choice. But I can understand that for those who hear the key as D, that just sounds like wrong notes: he should be resolving phrases to the D chord, not the G (they'd say).

[Vito Corleone]

Personally, I think the melody is mostly centered on D. The "resolution" to G is not all the time,

 

Yes, the melody ends on a "D" NOTE, but what I meant is the melody and the phrasing end on the "G" CHORD and hit that first beat of the 3rd measure and the chord change that occurs on that beat. That's what I meant by the melody resolving to the "G". It's all moves like a freight-train to the "G" chord, which it then sits on until it's time to start the riff over again.

 

I'm not arguing that those who hear the key as "D" are wrong. They hear what they hear for the reasons they hear it. But for anyone to state that there's no CONTEXT for "G" is just absurd. There's context all over the place.

 

And your point about the bass line dropping down to "G" is just another reason that getting to the "G" feels like a resolution. Not that the lowest note the bass plays is always going to be the key of the song, but it certainly helps it to feel/sound like it in this case. IMO, of course.