What key?

[JonR]

 

Yes, the melody ends on a "D" NOTE, but what I meant is the melody and the phrasing end on the "G" CHORD and hit that first beat of the 3rd measure and the chord change that occurs on that beat. That's what I meant by the melody resolving to the "G". It's all moves like a freight-train to the "G" chord, which it then sits on until it's time to start the riff over again.

 

I'm not arguing that those who hear the key as "D" are wrong. They hear what they hear for the reasons they hear it. But for anyone to state that there's no CONTEXT for "G" is just absurd. There's context all over the place.

 

And your point about the bass line dropping down to "G" is just another reason that getting to the "G" feels like a resolution. Not that the lowest note the bass plays is always going to be the key of the song, but it certainly helps it to feel/sound like it in this case. IMO, of course.

I hear it the same way you do, I just misunderstood the point about the melody

 

 

[1001gear]

You should re-read the first page then. You started by stating it as "D" with a matter-of-fact "done" attitude that left no room for discussion and then called the case made for "G" to be "retarded". The thread then went downhill from there.

 

True. D emphatically. Whatever ensued is fat heads and whatever case for G there was. Like I said, write a treatise if you like. The thing sounds in D, the melody outlines D, any fills and solos I do point back to D and in typical rock fashion, regenerate on the D. That's enough D for me to actually be D.

I mean srsly, does I has to preface every point with IMHO?

 

 

But let's make it more simple: if the tonal center is, in fact, D, then why does every band who has ever played the song end the song on G? Have you ever heard a band finish the song on D? Not saying there isn't one somewhere in the world who does it, but 99.9% of bands who play this song (and there have been thousands) end it on G.

 

Evidentally Skynrd did it live (one of a couple truths I've gleaned ) - prolly in response to the (kopf) controversy. As to the other bands, You play in a pro cover band right?

 

Anyway looks like you guys finally progress with the discussion. I'll be back to pitch D . If I find ways to rewrite as G then Ill post that too.

[Vito Corleone]

 

 

I mean srsly, does I has to preface every point with IMHO?

 

Of course not. But when you emphatically state your position as the truth, and denigrate the other side as "retarded", and then whine about being insulted following that....there's not really a whole lot of "humble", or even "opinion" in the writings you've posted, is there? So if you're not going to preface things with that statement, then you need to word your opinions in such a manner that it's easily implied.

 

Internet Debating 101.

 

Evidentally Skynrd did it live (one of a couple truths I've gleaned ) - prolly in response to the (kopf) controversy. As to the other bands, You play in a pro cover band right?

 

"Prolly in response to the controversy"??? Where is your support for that? Most likely they did it because that's how they heard it. For chrissakes....the dude who WROTE the damned thing says it's in G. What other chord would you expect them to end it on?

 

 

 

 

 

[1001gear]

again you are the hypocrite. I'm not interested in the protocols of debate. I'm not even debating anything.; merely stating what you insist is ONLY an opinion.I don't buy G at all. My prerogative. Get the writer on. He can tout his song and motivations for a hundred pages, it's still D.

I don't attack people and have not insulted you as you do me ( speaking of debating 101 ) You a control freaque? And speaking of retarded, You insist there is no argument - that here is a duality of perception, bla bla

So WHY THE F are you trying to win?

 

And I'm kinda liking the tune. Toying with working up an open mic jam on it. Gonna call it Sweet Hole Amabama.

[1001gear]

In D.

[JonR]

I'm not interested in the protocols of debate. I'm not even debating anything

Clearly. (This is getting quite funny now...)

.; merely stating what you insist is ONLY an opinion.I don't buy G at all. My prerogative.

Absolutely. No one is saying you have to hear it in G.

Get the writer on. He can tout his song and motivations for a hundred pages, it's still D.

LOL.

I don't attack people

Well, you called me a bonehead, and some of my statements "retarded", but then - being a retarded bonehead - insults have little impact.

You insist there is no argument - that here is a duality of perception,

That's precisely why there IS an argument - although it would be nicer if it could be a debate.

You can't argue that there is no "duality of perception", unless you pretend all those who hear it in G don't exist. You still haven't quite said what you think of all those who hear it in G, or given any opinion as to why they might say that.

You don't have to tell us, of course, but if you keep coming back to this thread it would be good to have that contribution, rather than the constant repetitive insistence that it IS in D (we know you think that already!), and calling alternative opinions retarded.

So WHY THE F are you trying to win?

I can't speak for guido61, but I'm not trying to "win" anything. Just trying to open it up a little from a childish "I say D, you say G" level.

But really I don't hold out any hope of that. I only come back here because I'm finding your replies increasingly entertaining. (I guess I should just read and leave it alone.)

 

[1001gear]

You started with the I insist part therefore bonehead. That's a return not an attack.

Most of the responses to me, concern ME. I don't even GAF about ME.

Neither do I GAF about any argument on the issue. It's music, you come however you like it. All I get is prodding - says fat heads to me. And the decontexted mincing is very annoying.

 

And egregious error. I've been playing F and calling it a III chord for that turn variation and it's actually Csus 4 - { IV 11 if you will} going to C. Which since nobody corrected me puts more weight on the fat head angle.

[JonR]

You started with the I insist part therefore bonehead. That's a return not an attack.

Well, it was in response to a comment about me saying you "needed" to accept that your position was an opinion, not fact. I wasn't "insisting" on anything, and I've apologised for saying you "needed" to do anything.

Let's just say it would have been useful to the debate if you could have admitted that. But I understand the debate doesn't interest you.

Meanwhile, you continue to use "retarded" to describe quite reasonable and conventional interpretations, and "fat head" to actually refer to other posters here.

Most of the responses to me, concern ME.

They concern your lack of engagement with reasonable debate, as I see it. I wouldn't be bothering with this at all if I thought you were just an idiot. I've seen a lot of your posts before, and you seem to be an experienced musician of reasonable intelligence, with a lot of useful advice (on other topics). I don't quite understand why you're getting so (apparently) heated about this issue, and repeatedly misunderstanding what others are saying.

Neither do I GAF about any argument on the issue.

So stop posting. No one is going to assume you've admitted defeat by doing that, or changed your mind. I certainly won't feel I've "won", or "lost", either way.

I'm not attacking you, only questioning some of the things you're saying, or maybe the way you're saying them. You're taking it personally.

It's music, you come however you like it. All I get is prodding - says fat heads to me. And the decontexted mincing is very annoying.

OK, I'm prodding, I admit it. But not in order to annoy.

Personally, I've been trying to keep the context focussed on the topic. Not sure how you read "mincing" into any of this; or indeed what you mean by "mincing" - chopping into small pieces, or exaggeratedly dainty or effeminate manner? I guess you might be thinking of both..., but the latter would be in your imagination.

And egregious error. I've been playing F and calling it a III chord for that turn variation and it's actually Csus 4 - { IV 11 if you will} going to C. Which since nobody corrected me puts more weight on the fat head angle.

Damn, I was hoping no one was going to make me listen to the damn song again...

But I'm afraid my ears (yep those things again) tell me you were right first time. No need for correction.

That's if you mean the chord before the chorus, at 1:30 in this video:

- that's a plain and simple F chord, as clear as can be. F bass and all 3 triad notes present and correct. A possible hint of a G (so Fadd9?), but even if no A was present Fsus2 would be a better name than Csus4.

"Csus4/F" would be OK, but only if the A wasn't there. And I think the ghost G is probably a harmonic of the lower C anyway.

 

 

[1001gear]

Nuther quit mincing my words.

[JonR]

Nuther quit mincing my words.

Ah. If you mean my multi-quoting, I'm just trying to address each point. Trying to be respectful of what you're saying.

I realise I may sometimes be misunderstanding what you're saying, but it takes two. One to write clearly (or be happy to rephrase), the other to read carefully and respectfully, and allow different interpretations.

Reading between the lines is asking for trouble, which is why writing as clearly as possible (even at length) is better than a few cryptic words or slang terms.

 

(I don't mean to patronise. I often have problems understanding posters who prefer short cryptic comments to more detailed expositions. Nothing personal.)

[1001gear]

Check on the C. I was playing a rootless F sus4 and resolving to open C Nearly the same shapes. Tactile theory malfunction. On that bit, there's a "comin' home to you" landing on the C. Now with C as a tonal center you start on a II and then go I V IV I, Much more palatable prog than the G cycle.

 

And stop posting? Talk about arrogant.

[JonR]

Check on the C. I was playing a rootless F sus4 and resolving to open C Nearly the same shapes. Tactile theory malfunction.

Sorry, don't follow. I was just talking about the original, where it's a plain F. I'm not sure if you're saying you made a mistake, or preferred to play it a different way.

On that bit, there's a "comin' home to you" landing on the C. Now with C as a tonal center you start on a II and then go I V IV I, Much more palatable prog than the G cycle.

You mean this?

|    Lord I'm comin home  to |you
|D      .      C      .      |G     .     F    C    |
|II            I              V           IV   I    |

Interesting angle, but a definite minority view. It would have more weight if the D was minor, which there's a hint of with that flattened blue 3rd in the vocal. Still, I think most people would still go for one of these:

|    Lord I'm comin home  to |you                   |
|D      .      C      .      |G     .     F    C    |
|V             IV            |I         bVII   IV   | (G major)
|I            bVII           |IV        bIII  bVII  | (D mixolydian)

And we both know which we'd each choose .

And stop posting? Talk about arrogant.

You're misreading me again. I didn't tell you to stop posting. I was only suggesting that because you said "Neither do I GAF about any argument on the issue." If that's the case, why continue the argument? (I guess that's the way I should have put it.)

(The point doesn't apply to this post, because you've opened it out a little.)

 

 

 

[1001gear]

I really don't GAF 'bout the argument or arguing. I post to comment and certainly not to get hassled.

The F to C is just a malfunction. I was on Csus4 instead of F and then still fumbling with it got F sus4 to C and stopped caring and posted anyway.

What I'm doing is open D shape and then just moving the bass to C then G leaving the D on the B string in place. It's easy and sounds full enough. Ran into trouble trying to finger the F to E voice leading hence my confusion.

 

The C center caught my interest because once again the lyric lands on G but this time there's that F to C interjection and an emphatic one at that.

[JonR]

I really don't GAF 'bout the argument or arguing. I post to comment and certainly not to get hassled.

I don't intend to hassle, mostly just trying to understand what you're saying.

The F to C is just a malfunction.

By who?

I was on Csus4 instead of F and then still fumbling with it got F sus4 to C and stopped caring and posted anyway.

See, that presents difficulties. If you "stop caring and post anyway", then you should expect to get hassled to clarify what you're saying, and make sure you meant what you said. (Which can get irritating because it's time-wasting: yours as much as anyone's.)

Like I said, you can play it any way you like, it's a different issue from what's on the actual recording. Both topics can make for good discussion.

The chords you play can be changed by whatever the bass is doing anyway. If you play a Csus4 and the bassist plays F, it's an Fsus2 chord (to anyone listening).

What I'm doing is open D shape and then just moving the bass to C then G leaving the D on the B string in place. It's easy and sounds full enough.

Right, gotcha. That's pretty much what they do, plus the open G on the C and G chords of course. IOW, D5 > Cadd9 > G.

Ran into trouble trying to finger the F to E voice leading hence my confusion.

OK .

The C center caught my interest because once again the lyric lands on G but this time there's that F to C interjection and an emphatic one at that.

Yes. The F-C makes a nice punctuation to lead into the solo. I like the thought that it suggests a C centre, but I don't hear it myself. I just hear the F-C as a classic rock device in key of G - even though it goes to D. (It works just as well as bIII-bVII in D of course .)

 

 

[gubu]

D Mixo

 

Or, if you like, say that D is the tonic, and you use the chord scale from G Major/Ionian.

 

Then, if you decide to resolve/finish the song on the GMaj chord, you can say that it 'modulates' to GMaj - doesn't really matter - lots of Mixo tunes have at least one section where the song resolves to the related Ionian Major tonic

 

I would HATE to be in a band, or try to write a song, with a lot of the people in this thread!!

 

Modes are not rocket science - though they are often taught as if they were (guitar instruction books, for instance - sheesh)

 

[JonR]

D Mixo

 

Or, if you like, say that D is the tonic, and you use the chord scale from G Major/Ionian.

 

Then, if you decide to resolve/finish the song on the GMaj chord, you can say that it 'modulates' to GMaj - doesn't really matter - lots of Mixo tunes have at least one section where the song resolves to the related Ionian Major tonic

 

I would HATE to be in a band, or try to write a song, with a lot of the people in this thread!!

 

Modes are not rocket science - though they are often taught as if they were (guitar instruction books, for instance - sheesh)

I agree with all of this - except for your claim that D "is" the tonic. What you mean is that you hear D as the tonic.

It's a small point, perhaps, but it's the crux of the whole debate (which I guess you must have missed).

It's also worth saying that if a piece resolves to a major tonic at some point, then any extended section on the dominant might be described in two ways: mixolydian mode, or a dominant vamp.

It all depends on whether you hear that section as having its own stable tonal centre, or whether you feel it's always waiting for that move to the major.

 

The track I think of in that respect is the Stones "The Last Time", which is (pretty clearly IMO) a mixolydian verse in E, moving to a chorus in A - which sounds both like a move to the IV of E mix, and like a V-I cadence into the relative major. The move to D at the end of the chorus doesn't settle the issue (IV of A? bVII of E? Both, naturally).

Just a question of perspective, of course (which can change throughout the song), and of purely academic interest.

 

The issue with SHA is similarly academic, but a lot of people seem to take it personally. The way they hear it is right, and everyone else is wrong. You may not be one of those, but opening with the bald statements "D mixo", "D is the tonic", suggests that (a least) you haven't read the debate. (Once upon a time, I entered the same debate with a similarly bald statement that it was "in G", not understanding that many people heard it the other way. It became obvious pretty quickly that some heard it as D, some as G, and neither group accepted the possibility of the other view. No one thinks their ears can be wrong, and no one seemed to consider that perception of key is subjective.)

 

As for being in a band with people like this: you may know that Skynyrd themselves had arguments about it. They missed the point too.

 

 

[Jasco]

So, has there been any kind of unanimous decision about what key this song is in yet? Sorry I don't have time to read all 7 pages of debate.

 

You know what, I just played a gig with Lynyrd Skynyrd's keyboard player on Saturday. I should have just asked him, LOL.

[onelife]

I still hear it as a I IV in the key of D Major with the C acting as a substitute for a I7 passing chord between the I and the IV.

[JonR]

So, has there been any kind of unanimous decision about what key this song is in yet?

No. And there never will be, and never should be. Why do you want a unanimous decision? It's even hard to get a majority vote, it swings between D and G all the time. (I mean the popular vote does, although the song kind of does too...)

Play it as you hear it.

You know what, I just played a gig with Lynyrd Skynyrd's keyboard player on Saturday. I should have just asked him, LOL.

Right! But why would you take his word??

But - if he didn't punch you in the face for asking a question he must have heard a million times already - he should have been able to tell you all about the band's own arguments about the key; that would have been worth hearing (again).)

 

 

[Vito Corleone]

No. And there never will be, and never should be. Why do you want a unanimous decision? It's even hard to get a majority vote, it swings between D and G all the time. (I mean the popular vote does, although the song kind of does too...)

Play it as you hear it.

Right! But why would you take his word??

But - if he didn't punch you in the face for asking a question he must have heard a million times already - he should have been able to tell you all about the band's own arguments about the key; that would have been worth hearing (again).)

 

 

Well, considering Billy Powell died a few years ago, I doubt that whoever is their keyboard player these days got to participate in all those fun arguments.

[WRGKMC]

Dominant key is usually built around the melody of the song. If not its a collective of all the instruments combining to provide the dominant key. If the first chord when the verse begins is D. 9X out of ten that's the key the song is in.

[JonR]

Dominant key is usually built around the melody of the song. If not its a collective of all the instruments combining to provide the dominant key. If the first chord when the verse begins is D. 9X out of ten that's the key the song is in.

I really hate to come back here, but we're not talking "usually" or "9x out of ten". I totally agree with you there, as a useful hint in general terms, but we're talking about this specific tune. Do you see that there is something very unusual about this tune? Have you read the whole thread?

 

In short, there is NO way of determining the key of this tune. Not in a way that everyone will agree (which is the point).

There are two theoretical justifications (looking at the music - melody, chords, bass line, riffs), and two aural possibilities.

Theoretically, there is your angle: first chord is usually key chord. (Vocal focus is less of an argument. Scale is not the same thing as key. We all agree on scale...)

That's theory #1: I-bVII-IV in D (mixolydian).

Theory #2: V-IV-I in G (major).

Both are supportable from precedent, and from common use.

 

The ear - which is what matters - chooses between those two. "99x out of 100" - in most songs - everyone's ears make the same judgement. But this song is one of those extremely rare instances where some listeners insist it's in D, and others insist it's in G. Because of how they hear it - not theoretical reasoning. (They might use theoretical reasoning to support their view, but it's their ears that make them sure.)

 

What irritates me about the interminable debates on this song (this one is by no means the worst!) is that so few people seem capable of accepting that subjectivity. Most contributors insist it "IS" however they hear it, implying (even if they don't say so) that the others are "wrong", meaning they're either deaf or stupid.

It's extremely rare to find any glimmer of intelligence accepting that both are possible, and equally OK; that neither way is exclusively "correct".

 

"You say tomato, I say tomato."

 

 

[1001gear]

... and still D.

The F, C cadence (spraching of those things) just before the first guitar solo not only surrounds D - VII and III respectively, they're both V chords,

to D and indeed are functioning that way.

 

On the G side, the tune has one sharp that never resolves to G, hammers this unresolved V and sounds like it's in D.

 

[JonR]

... and still D.

The F, C cadence (spraching of those things) just before the first guitar solo not only surrounds D - VII and III respectively, they're both V chords,

to D and indeed are functioning that way.

 

On the G side, the tune has one sharp that never resolves to G, hammers this unresolved V and sounds like it's in D.

 

 

You're only repeating the same thing you've said many times already. But then I guess that's what I'm doing too!

The difference is that you seem to be offering your opinion as a refutation of mine. You're not addressing the point I'm making.

 

I understand perfectly well that you think it's in D, and you've explained your reasoning perfectly well. No doubt all the others who hear it in D will agree with you.

That's perfectly fine, but it's not the issue.

 

We could have somebody come here and explain that it's in G, and offer equally persuasive arguments (I think a few already did). Or equally unpersuasive, because theoretical justification is beside the point. Theories of chord function can be used to support either view.

We start from how we hear it.

You hear it (100%) in D. No question. No need for you to offer any reasoning.

Plenty of other folk hear it (100%) in G. No question for them either. And likewise theoretical reasoning is irrelevant.

Offering various theoretical arguments in support might make each person feel more secure in their own aural judgement, but it's not going to convince anyone who holds the opposite opinion.

F and C obviously make sense as III and VII to someone who hears D as key chord. They make equal sense as VII and IV to someone who hears G as key chord. For any analysis you can make (of any part of the tune) that supports D, I could make one (for the same part) - if I felt like it - that supports G.

 

Therefore that level of debate is pointless and circular. To get out of that spiral we have first to accept that perception of key is subjective. Your opinion and mine - the way we each hear the tune - have no more authority than anyone else's. And appeals to greater theoretical authorities prove nothing.

 

Accept that fact, and the debate is resolved. The key of SHA is whatever each of us thinks it is (the chord we hear as "I"). That's all there is to it.

We could play this tune together in the same band, you play it your way, and I play it mine, and both will sound OK.

 

As Bob Dylan said:

 

"You are right from your side, and I am right from mine,

We're both just one too many mornings and a thousand miles behind."

 

 

 

 

[1001gear]

Like I've said, devil's advocate is not a resolution. You can no more make it "the word" than you can commandeer the discussion with it.