Alternate picking frustration

[Santuzzo]

I have been working so hard on my alternate picking, trying to speed it up, and I am by no means a beginner, been playing guitar for about 20 years now.

 

But still I am far from shred speed-wise.....with me the picking speed seems to improve extremely slowly....for me it takes forever to get just a tiny little increase in speed.

 

And what's frustrating me the most is for instance: right now I'm practicing pentatonic patterns as cross stirng picking exercises (like the exercises from Stetina's Speed Machanic's book), and like on some days I get them up to a certain speed and only the very next day my to speed is 10 BPM less. I do understand I'm not a machine, and I cna't be so consistent, but 10 BPM is quite a difference, isn't it?! I just gets me so frustrated......

 

Anybody else have this?

[Mark Wein]

I'm always struggling with my picking. I'll typically work on something for 3-4 weeks and then hit the point of diminishing returns. I try and rotate what I work on technique-wise on a nearly monthly basis and I seem to make better progress overall...

 

The best thing for me has been not exclusively doing exercises but picking a piece of music that utilizes a technique and beating that into the ground from super slow tempos to (gradually increasing) quicker ones....

[jeremy_green]

Have you had a really close examination of your technique? Something I was doing was - I thought I was alternating properly. Upon closer examination my picking stroke was not always up and down. As I moved across the strings I was attacking each new string on a down stroke. I got pretty fast at it! So fast I never noticed. Since then I have cleaned it up and am much faster for it.

 

Another HUGE help to me has been Frank Gambales DVD Chopbuilders. That has increased my speed and control very rapidly.

 

Maybe try a different pick shape? I use the small Dunlop Jazz IIIs. They are very hard and small. Really nice for fast picking. If you use a flexible pick the flexing of the pick itself can throw you into a speed wobble.

 

Good luck!

[Santuzzo]

I'm always struggling with my picking. I'll typically work on something for 3-4 weeks and then hit the point of diminishing returns. I try and rotate what I work on technique-wise on a nearly monthly basis and I seem to make better progress overall... The best thing for me has been not exclusively doing exercises but picking a piece of music that utilizes a technique and beating that into the ground from super slow tempos to (gradually increasing) quicker ones....

 

Thanks for your input !

 

Yeah, I think, maybe I stick with the same exercises for too long, sometimes even 2 months or longer ....

 

Yeah, I sort of try utilizing small alternate picked licks when I improvise, and funny thing is, usually those seem to work pretty well, whereas the exercises sometimes give me such a hard time, and so much frustration....

[Santuzzo]

Have you had a really close examination of your technique? Something I was doing was - I thought I was alternating properly. Upon closer examination my picking stroke was not always up and down. As I moved across the strings I was attacking each new string on a down stroke. I got pretty fast at it! So fast I never noticed. Since then I have cleaned it up and am much faster for it. Another HUGE help to me has been Frank Gambales DVD Chopbuilders. That has increased my speed and control very rapidly. Maybe try a different pick shape? I use the small Dunlop Jazz IIIs. They are very hard and small. Really nice for fast picking. If you use a flexible pick the flexing of the pick itself can throw you into a speed wobble. Good luck!

 

Thanks for your ideas !

 

But, like I said, I been working on this for so many years, and yeah, it is striclty alternating, really consisten alternate picking.

I already changed my picking technique a few years ago from wrist picking (I didn't seem to get any speed there, maybe because I'm a lefty playing righty) to elbow picking a la Vinnie Moore.

And I am currently using Ibanez Paul Gilbert picks, tired the Jazz III's, too, they are great, but I prefer the Paul Gilbert picks cos they are just a bit bigger, I have a better grip on them somehow.

[Mark Wein]

Thanks for your input ! Yeah, I think, maybe I stick with the same exercises for too long, sometimes even 2 months or longer .... Yeah, I sort of try utilizing small alternate picked licks when I improvise, and funny thing is, usually those seem to work pretty well, whereas the exercises sometimes give me such a hard time, and so much frustration....

 

I think that we should put together a list of songs that make great technical exercises.....

[Santuzzo]

 

I think that we should put together a list of songs that make great technical exercises.....

 

 

great idea !!!!

 

I have these ones right now on top of my head:

 

all the two part inventions by Bach

Moto Perpetuo by Paganini

Donna Lee theme by Parker

Technical Difficulties by Racer X

 

 

 

bear in mind : I was thinking in particular of tunes that make good alternate picking workouts

[Mark Wein]

H'mmm I'm going to think about it....

 

Call me cheesy but I always like the little bit before the solo on Ygwie's "I'll see the light tonight"...it is some classical rip-off but I use it with my students to get them playing alternate picking and moving 3 note per string patterns around on one string....the usually get a kick out of it too....

 

 

Bach's "Jesu, Joy of Mans Desiring" is another good one....

 

Bebop heads are usually prety good, too...I like the Parker heads like "Blues for Alice" and Donna Lee...

 

I'll be back later with some more...

[Santuzzo]

H'mmm I'm going to think about it.... Call me cheesy but I always like the little bit before the solo on Ygwie's "I'll see the light tonight"...it is some classical rip-off but I use it with my students to get them playing alternate picking and moving 3 note per string patterns around on one string....the usually get a kick out of it too.... Bach's "Jesu, Joy of Mans Desiring" is another good one.... Bebop heads are usually prety good, too...I like the Parker heads like "Blues for Alice" and Donna Lee... I'll be back later with some more...

 

I can't recall right now the Malmsteen part you mentioned, but, sure, I love Malmsteen's music, too !!!!

And Bachs Jesu.... is indeed a great choice, such a beautiful piece of music !

[Santuzzo]

To get back to my initial post in this thread:

 

I think what frustrates me the most is maybe not even so much the fact that it seems to take me forever to improve my picking-speed, but much more that fact that one day I can do a certain exercise at a certain speed and the very next day I'm struggling with the same exercise at like 20 BPM slower....

 

And at some point, afterh aving worked on a certain exercise or set of exercises for a few days or weeks I actually see my speed on those exercises decreasing, like I have to go back to say 30-50 BPM less, and start building it up fom there again, whereas I was albe to play it faster just a few days before that.....

This seems so weird to me and it frustrates the hell outta me .... I even get rage attacks sometimes cos I'm so frustrated, it's very bad.

[Big Muff]

And what's frustrating me the most is for instance: right now I'm practicing pentatonic patterns as cross stirng picking exercises (like the exercises from Stetina's Speed Machanic's book), and like on some days I get them up to a certain speed and only the very next day my to speed is 10 BPM less. I do understand I'm not a machine, and I cna't be so consistent, but 10 BPM is quite a difference, isn't it?! I just gets me so frustrated...... Anybody else have this?

 

The reason that your speed is slower on some days is probably due to not being warmed up properly.

 

For example, lets say you practice an exercise for 2 hours or so and get it up to 150 BPM. The reason you can play it at this speed is because you have been playing for a long time and you are thoroughly warmed up.

 

You can't just pick up your guitar the next day and expect to play it perfectly at the same speed.

[Santuzzo]

 

The reason that your speed is slower on some days is probably due to not being warmed up properly. For example, lets say you practice an exercise for 2 hours or so and get it up to 150 BPM. The reason you can play it at this speed is because you have been playing for a long time and you are thoroughly warmed up. You can't just pick up your guitar the next day and expect to play it perfectly at the same speed.

 

 

Yeah, that would make sense, but it's really not the case here because I run through the same routine every time I practice, same warm-up exercises, and I spend about the same time on the picking exercises, start at the same speed, speed up the metronomy by the same increments, and so on....so all of that is constant, really.

[Jasco]

I wouldn't worry about speed. There are so many more important musical things to focus on. In the long run speed is kind of ghey.

 

Speed is just a by-product of consistant training with accuracy and good timing.

[Santuzzo]

I wouldn't worry about speed. There are so many more important musical things to focus on. In the long run speed is kind of ghey. Speed is just a by-product of consistant training with accuracy and good timing.

 

Thanks for your input, but , well this is just ONE of the things I'm working on, and, like I said, it's not that I just started out, been playing for some years....but I kinda knew it's a matter of time until someone will say something like "speed is not important, only music is, think of music, not speed....:blah:".

 

Sorry, don't mean to diss you, but, c'mon, of course I know there are other things that are important:rolleyes:

 

BTW, could you elaborate on what you meant by the phrase I underlined in the quote?

[gennation]

Consistency is a toughy! Many times you'll have up's and down's. Until consistency becomes part of the goal it's hard to get a firm, consistent, level going.

 

What I did was to not worry how fast I could go, but be concerned with where I could start out, and play comfortably. It takes time, for me it took about a year to get my starting pace raised about 20-25bpm.

 

It turned out that after I played for a while (in one sitting with a metronome) I could get as fast as 140-160bpm at times. But I found I always had to start REAL slow to play precise, and comfortably, then ramp up. I was starting with 16th's at 90bpm. I finally made it to my goal of comfortably starting with 16ths at 115bpm.

 

Getting that starting speed up I think is what allows me to ramp things up very quickly now. IOW, I can ramp up to that 160bpm range MUCH quicker now. Now I need to get the starting speed up to 16th notes at 120bpm.

 

I've played for over 30 years and only the last two years or so have I diligently started practicing EVERYTHING to a metronome. Makes a big difference, and it's NEVER too late to start. Good luck!

[Mark Wein]

I know for me, I'll never be super speedy, but working on the chops stuff gives my normal playing much better punch and fluidity....my normal playing style isn't very shreddy but I have fun working on the stuff and it does benefit my overall technique...

[Zeppelin Rules]

I have been working so hard on my alternate picking, trying to speed it up, and I am by no means a beginner, been playing guitar for about 20 years now. But still I am far from shred speed-wise.....with me the picking speed seems to improve extremely slowly....for me it takes forever to get just a tiny little increase in speed. And what's frustrating me the most is for instance: right now I'm practicing pentatonic patterns as cross stirng picking exercises (like the exercises from Stetina's Speed Machanic's book), and like on some days I get them up to a certain speed and only the very next day my to speed is 10 BPM less. I do understand I'm not a machine, and I cna't be so consistent, but 10 BPM is quite a difference, isn't it?! I just gets me so frustrated...... Anybody else have this?

 

I'd try running four note per string chromatic stuff to work on speed picking and three note per string major scales as I find they're a lot more conducive to playing up and down very fast than pentatonics.

[1001gear]

 

To get back to my initial post in this thread: I think what frustrates me the most is maybe not even so much the fact that it seems to take me forever to improve my picking-speed, but much more that fact that one day I can do a certain exercise at a certain speed and the very next day I'm struggling with the same exercise at like 20 BPM slower.... And at some point, afterh aving worked on a certain exercise or set of exercises for a few days or weeks I actually see my speed on those exercises decreasing, like I have to go back to say 30-50 BPM less, and start building it up fom there again, whereas I was albe to play it faster just a few days before that..... This seems so weird to me and it frustrates the hell outta me .... I even get rage attacks sometimes cos I'm so frustrated, it's very bad.

 

 

Could be the 'recreationals' there?

[captain average]

dude, it's simple. lets say you were a weightlifter, and you worked on your bench press the day before, lifting your max weight 30 times over 3 sets. would you expect to be able to repeat the performance the next day? of course not.

your muscles need time to recover. try working on different things on different days, or else don't necessarily push yourself to the edge of your physical capability every day.

[nodachi]

I think the best advice I can give you is to RELAX.

 

Seriously, i've been finding that this is more important to many aspects of how your body works than ever before. I actually learned it from my swimming days, and i found I would get my best times on days when i would be totally relaxed before a race.

 

As for picking, too often do i see kids tighten up their picking arm and try to "flex" their way to faster alternate picking. It's terrible, and too often, you'll never notice it. i used to do it all the time, until i started watching alot of vids of Lynch, Dimebag, Vai, and Satch. All of them, every single one, have the most relaxed looking right hand, and can shred with ease! I started looking at my own technique, and found that even a little tension will make you sloppy and ultimately slow your potential speed down.

 

If you ever notice that you picking hand starts to hurt or cramp even a little bit after playing (unless you've been playing for like, 8 hours straight), you've got too much tension in your arm. This'll make you sloppy (which will make you feel like your fretting hand can't keep up with your picking hand, or vice versa) and your speed will cap off very early.

 

So RELAX.

[Santuzzo]

dude, it's simple. lets say you were a weightlifter, and you worked on your bench press the day before, lifting your max weight 30 times over 3 sets. would you expect to be able to repeat the performance the next day? of course not. your muscles need time to recover. try working on different things on different days, or else don't necessarily push yourself to the edge of your physical capability every day.

 

Thanks !

Well, I'm not sure if this is really a good comparison. I mean, I don't really strain my muscles that much when picking, I think. It's not that much of a physical strain, as in workong your muscles really heavily, is it?

But, then again, maybe you're right, and I should just not expect to get my same top speed the next day. Life would be so much easier for me, then.

[Santuzzo]

 

I'd try running four note per string chromatic stuff to work on speed picking and three note per string major scales as I find they're a lot more conducive to playing up and down very fast than pentatonics.

 

 

Oh, yeah, the exercises you suggest are indeed great, I do that, too.

But you misunderstood, I don't run the pentatonics up and down, I use little3-note patterns inside the pentatonic scale each of which covers 2 strings, so 2 notes on on string and one on the next, which forces me to do the cross string picking which is what I'm focussing on at the moment.

[Santuzzo]

I think the best advice I can give you is to RELAX. Seriously, i've been finding that this is more important to many aspects of how your body works than ever before. I actually learned it from my swimming days, and i found I would get my best times on days when i would be totally relaxed before a race. As for picking, too often do i see kids tighten up their picking arm and try to "flex" their way to faster alternate picking. It's terrible, and too often, you'll never notice it. i used to do it all the time, until i started watching alot of vids of Lynch, Dimebag, Vai, and Satch. All of them, every single one, have the most relaxed looking right hand, and can shred with ease! I started looking at my own technique, and found that even a little tension will make you sloppy and ultimately slow your potential speed down. If you ever notice that you picking hand starts to hurt or cramp even a little bit after playing (unless you've been playing for like, 8 hours straight), you've got too much tension in your arm. This'll make you sloppy (which will make you feel like your fretting hand can't keep up with your picking hand, or vice versa) and your speed will cap off very early. So RELAX.

 

Thanks ! VERY TRUE !

 

I have noticed myself tensing up the faster I try to pick, and I am aware of this and trying to relax more.

I have managed to get rid of a lot of tension I used to have in my arm, but now I still have tension in my neck and shoulders whjile picking fast.

And sometimers when I manage to completely play relaxed, it feels so much better and easier, but I don't always reach that state of relaxation.

But I do realize how important of an aspect that it !

[Knottyhed]

I have been working so hard on my alternate picking, trying to speed it up, and I am by no means a beginner, been playing guitar for about 20 years now. But still I am far from shred speed-wise.....with me the picking speed seems to improve extremely slowly....for me it takes forever to get just a tiny little increase in speed. And what's frustrating me the most is for instance: right now I'm practicing pentatonic patterns as cross stirng picking exercises (like the exercises from Stetina's Speed Machanic's book), and like on some days I get them up to a certain speed and only the very next day my to speed is 10 BPM less. I do understand I'm not a machine, and I cna't be so consistent, but 10 BPM is quite a difference, isn't it?! I just gets me so frustrated...... Anybody else have this?

 

Depends what speed you're already at? No 10bpm isn't alot. If you finish one day playing a song/exercise at 150bpm and have to start over at 140bpm then really it isn't a big difference - about 7.5% slower. Hardly surprising when you consider that at the end of yesterdays practice session you were fully warmed up, and at the start of today's your hands are "cold" again.

 

And you are like a machine , you wouldn't expect a car engine to perform the same from cold as you would when the engine is at optimun running temperature, so why expect your hands to do the same?

 

Any pro player will tell you they warm up back stage before going out in front of an audience... and it's for that precise reason. I really would worry about it.

[Santuzzo]

Depends what speed you're already at? No 10bpm isn't alot. If you finish one day playing a song/exercise at 150bpm and have to start over at 140bpm then really it isn't a big difference - about 7.5% slower. Hardly surprising when you consider that at the end of yesterdays practice session you were fully warmed up, and at the start of today's your hands are "cold" again. And you are like a machine , you wouldn't expect a car engine to perform the same from cold as you would when the engine is at optimun running temperature, so why expect your hands to do the same? Any pro player will tell you they warm up back stage before going out in front of an audience... and it's for that precise reason. I really would worry about it.

 

Yeah, thanks, but like I said in one of my previous posts, I do the same warm-up and build-up routien, so I start at the same BPM and build it up. Amd one day I can builid it up to 150 BPM (this was actually in deed the speed I was getting this one particular exercises at) and the next day after the same amount of warming up and having started building up the speed from 100BPM, I end up struggling at 140 BPM.

 

It's not that I'd be expecting to be able to play at the same speed without warm up.