Alternate picking frustration

[Knottyhed]

Yeah, thanks, but like I said in one of my previous posts, I do the same warm-up and build-up routien, so I start at the same BPM and build it up. Amd one day I can builid it up to 150 BPM (this was actually in deed the speed I was getting this one particular exercises at) and the next day after the same amount of warming up and having started building up the speed from 100BPM, I end up struggling at 140 BPM. It's not that I'd be expecting to be able to play at the same speed without warm up.

 

Fair enough, but again I think you're just talking about a problem that all guitarists have and 10bpm still isn't alot.

 

I remember watching a Stanley Jordan video where he said he tries to make practice as similar to performing as possible - right down to practicing at times he typically performs (i.e. evening). He also mentions the importance of looking after yourself in terms of eating and sleeping right... that's his way of getting himself to perform as consistently as possible.

 

I guess if you really wanted to obsess about it (and I get the impression SJ does), you could keep a practice diary noting times, things you eat, things you drink, how tired/alert you feel and keep a note of that next to performance bench marks i.e. bpm's on exercises. If you spot a pattern then you have an answer as to what you can do about it.

 

Alternatively, just concentrate on raising your overall level, so you can play reasonably well even if you're having an off day

[Knottyhed]

Just to put things in perspective, I just worked out that 16ths @ 140bpm is about 9 notes per second. 16ths @ 150bpm is 10 per second. You're not looking a huge variation in skill between your good and bad days.

[1001gear]

???

 

I was referring to the pot and hash there. That stuff'll put major latency in your performance cycles. Looks like you got the answers you needed anyway.

[petejt]

I have a lot of trouble with alternate picking.

 

The pick tends to "bounce up" rather than pluck upwards on the upstroke.

 

Although I can't do it as fast, my downpicking is much more better. Sorry but it is hard for me to explain.

[jeremy_green]

Hey Santuzzo,

 

I thought of a great song i used to use for picking technique - Tumeni Notes by Steve Morse. He fully alternate picks it but you can swap it out with sweeps from time to time if you want to change it up. The riff is a nice interconnecting thing.

 

Works for me. My students used to love it.

 

P.S. The palm muted sections are unreal! Check it out if you havent already.

[Auggie Doggie]

Oh, yeah, the exercises you suggest are indeed great, I do that, too. But you misunderstood, I don't run the pentatonics up and down, I use little3-note patterns inside the pentatonic scale each of which covers 2 strings, so 2 notes on on string and one on the next, which forces me to do the cross string picking which is what I'm focussing on at the moment.

 

Have you read through my Speed series posts? Not just doing the exercises, but the text from the original posts? One thing I hope that I had made clear throughout them was that any 'exercise' (as opposed to a legitimate piece of music) has a built-in limit as to what it can help you achieve.

 

When you hit a brick wall with an exercise, or a routine, etc,. it's time to change it up...drastically. It sounds like you're doing the Speed Mechanics '5 basic picking mechanics' examples with the pentatonic scales; ditch those immediately, and find OTHER lines that focus on the same picking maneuvers (by the way, there is a LOT missing from Stetina's set of 5, and thus they should not be viewed as any sort of picking technique bible).

 

Doing the same exercises past the terminal point is just flogging a dead horse! Mix it up...you should get about 3 weeks of good use out of an exercise before you throw it out like curdled milk.

 

[Santuzzo]

Just to put things in perspective, I just worked out that 16ths @ 140bpm is about 9 notes per second. 16ths @ 150bpm is 10 per second. You're not looking a huge variation in skill between your good and bad days.

 

Thanks, man !

 

Yeah, I agree, maybe I am a bit too perfectionistic in my thinking here. And I just might have to accept that there are good, mediocre and bad days.

And 150 is what I get on a good day, 140 maybe on a mediocre day and on a bad day it might only be 130.

[Santuzzo]

I was referring to the pot and hash there. That stuff'll put major latency in your performance cycles. Looks like you got the answers you needed anyway.

 

Oh, I get it, "Amsterdam"....I tend to forget, that's the first thing that comes to many poeple's minds when they think of Amsterdam.....unfortunately I must say.

I have been living here for almost 10 years now, and I never smoked even one joint......

[Santuzzo]

 

Hey Santuzzo, I thought of a great song i used to use for picking technique - Tumeni Notes by Steve Morse. He fully alternate picks it but you can swap it out with sweeps from time to time if you want to change it up. The riff is a nice interconnecting thing. Works for me. My students used to love it. P.S. The palm muted sections are unreal! Check it out if you havent already.

 

 

Oh, yeah, thanks !

 

I love that song ! But I have never dared trying to play it.....all those fast alternate picked arpeggios are killer !

[1001gear]

 

Oh, I get it, "Amsterdam"....I tend to forget, that's the first thing that comes to many poeple's minds when they think of Amsterdam.....unfortunately I must say. I have been living here for almost 10 years now, and I never smoked even one joint......

 

 

In that case I apologize for the insinuation.

[Santuzzo]

Have you read through my Speed series posts? Not just doing the exercises, but the text from the original posts? One thing I hope that I had made clear throughout them was that any 'exercise' (as opposed to a legitimate piece of music) has a built-in limit as to what it can help you achieve. When you hit a brick wall with an exercise, or a routine, etc,. it's time to change it up...drastically. It sounds like you're doing the Speed Mechanics '5 basic picking mechanics' examples with the pentatonic scales; ditch those immediately, and find OTHER lines that focus on the same picking maneuvers (by the way, there is a LOT missing from Stetina's set of 5, and thus they should not be viewed as any sort of picking technique bible). Doing the same exercises past the terminal point is just flogging a dead horse! Mix it up...you should get about 3 weeks of good use out of an exercise before you throw it out like curdled milk.

 

 

Thanks, Auggie !

 

Of course i have read your speed series ! They are great !

But it's been a while, I must admit.

 

Well at this point I'm only focussing on two of the Stetina cross stirng picking patterns (I think 2 and 4).

I skipped 1, cos that one is easiest for me, and after I made some reasonable progress/improvements on 2 and 4 I will practice 3 and 5.

 

But I changed the exercises a bit:

first of all, I use them in all the 5 pentatonic scale shapes and I play each set of string 4 times before going to trhe next set of 2 strings rather than only once as in the original Stetina exercise.

 

When I started these, my initial top speed was like 130BPM, so now I'm only at 140 and on a good day maybe on a "not really perfect" 150BPM.

Would you say that's enough of an improvement to change exercises already?

Only been working on them for maye 2 weeks now or sometihng.

Sometimes I stick the the same exercise/set of exercises for months.

 

In general, would you say it's better to change exercises very soon, say after 1-2 weeks, and take on new exercises and come back to exercises later?

[Santuzzo]

In that case I apologize for the insinuation.

 

No, man, don't apologize for having good sense of humor !

[Auggie Doggie]

Well at this point I'm only focussing on two of the Stetina cross stirng picking patterns (I think 2 and 4).

 

Give me a few minutes to find out what those are, and I'll give you something to replace them with!

 

When I started these, my initial top speed was like 130BPM, so now I'm only at 140 and on a good day maybe on a "not really perfect" 150BPM. Would you say that's enough of an improvement to change exercises already? Only been working on them for maye 2 weeks now or sometihng. Sometimes I stick the the same exercise/set of exercises for months. In general, would you say it's better to change exercises very soon, say after 1-2 weeks, and take on new exercises and come back to exercises later?

 

I shoot for an even three weeks, and then I move on, UNLESS something is still yielding drastic results (which is rare). 1-2 weeks is really short, though...probably not enough time for something to do its job.

 

It takes 21 consecutive days to permanently wire something into your brain, which is why I go for 3 week cycles.

[Santuzzo]

Give me a few minutes to find out what those are, and I'll give you something to replace them with! I shoot for an even three weeks, and then I move on, UNLESS something is still yielding drastic results (which is rare). 1-2 weeks is really short, though...probably not enough time for something to do its job. It takes 21 consecutive days to permanently wire something into your brain, which is why I go for 3 week cycles.

 

 

Cool ! Thanks, dude !

 

You = Da Man !

 

But you would then maybe later after having practiced other exercises for 21 consecutive days, get back to the exercises you worked on before?

Would you say I should change the exercises also even if I only improved by say 10-15 BPM?

[Auggie Doggie]

Cool ! Thanks, dude ! You = Da Man ! But you would then maybe later after having practiced other exercises for 21 consecutive days, get back to the exercises you worked on before? Would you say I should change the exercises also even if I only improved by say 10-15 BPM?

 

I always go back and review things, but I always change up the stuff I work on, even if there's only been a small improvement. Also, I don't often measure improvement by speed, so I tend to ignore how many bpm I may have gained.

 

*|*|*|*|*|*|*|*|*|*|*|*|*|*|*|*|

 

OK, I made up a quick page with 4 exercises. For A, B, and D, play each one 4x before moving to the next measure, but for C, just play it straight through as written.

 

http://download.yousendit.com/F4A47E991543FF68

[Santuzzo]

 

I always go back and review things, but I always change up the stuff I work on, even if there's only been a small improvement. Also, I don't often measure improvement by speed, so I tend to ignore how many bpm I may have gained. *|*|*|*|*|*|*|*|*|*|*|*|*|*|*|*| OK, I made up a quick page with 4 exercises. For A, B, and D, play each one 4x before moving to the next measure, but for C, just play it straight through as written. http://download.yousendit.com/F4A47E991543FF68

 

 

Wow ! Man, thank you so much ! :thu:I appreciate your help !

 

I'm still at work now, but will be home in about 30min. Then I can download the page !

 

BTW, I wish I could see the BPM increase as relaxed and not care so much about it, but I can't help it.

[Auggie Doggie]

Wow ! Man, thank you so much ! :thu:I appreciate your help ! I'm still at work now, but will be home in about 30min. Then I can download the page ! BTW, I wish I could see the BPM increase as relaxed and not care so much about it, but I can't help it.

 

 

You're welcome!

 

When it comes to BPM, I look at it like this:

 

When I practice them, I can play basic scales and arpeggios really fast. Not the fastest in the world, but pretty darned fast. I really have no occasion to play basic scales and arpeggios really fast, though, other than as preparation for real music.

 

When it comes to the music I love to work on (typically classical stuff for solo violin, cello, flute, etc), insane, blinding speed is virtually never required. However, what IS required is an incredible amount of precision and control at a moderate speed, with music that rarely falls into neat, repeating fingerboard or string patterns. Imagine 4 solid minutes of nonstop 16th notes at around 112 BPM. That doesn't sound too tough...until you see what thsoe notes are! At 108, it might be simple....at 112, it might be nearly impossible.

 

So, I tend to ignore the actual speed at which I do my scales, simply because it has very little bearing on the music I play. This way, I don't have to deal with the frustration of hitting a plateau; I just move to new practice material, and new repertoire material as well!

[Santuzzo]

You're welcome! When it comes to BPM, I look at it like this: When I practice them, I can play basic scales and arpeggios really fast. Not the fastest in the world, but pretty darned fast. I really have no occasion to play basic scales and arpeggios really fast, though, other than as preparation for real music. When it comes to the music I love to work on (typically classical stuff for solo violin, cello, flute, etc), insane, blinding speed is virtually never required. However, what IS required is an incredible amount of precision and control at a moderate speed, with music that rarely falls into neat, repeating fingerboard or string patterns. Imagine 4 solid minutes of nonstop 16th notes at around 112 BPM. That doesn't sound too tough...until you see what thsoe notes are! At 108, it might be simple....at 112, it might be nearly impossible. So, I tend to ignore the actual speed at which I do my scales, simply because it has very little bearing on the music I play. This way, I don't have to deal with the frustration of hitting a plateau; I just move to new practice material, and new repertoire material as well!

 

Cool !

 

Hey, I just downloaded the exercises ! Great stuff ! Thanks again so much !

I will give those a try, it's good to have also a diatonic exercise for those picking maneuvres (sp?).

AWESOME !!!!

[buddastrat]

One thing is there are many guys who are thought to alt. pick but don't. When I figured out Yngwie's "tricks," it made playing his stuff so much easier. Those transcription books are horribly inaccurate and cause years of frustration. The notes need to be arranged correctly and the right hand needs to use the certain muscles and picking form to execute a certain style.

 

You can't do it all. Someone who's very metronomic like Petrucci and Gilbert will have a hard time doing Yngwie style or Eric Johnson type stuff and vice versa. They have very different approaches and even use different muscles and picking form. That allows them to do certain things well.

 

There's a lot to it and I'd suggest getting with a teacher in that style so you can see what to work on and how to develop. I played for 25 years and could not play fast no matter how much I worked on this stuff with metronomes and rigid practices etc...

 

It wasn't until that light bulb went off and I figured out my picking. Then it came super fast. It really only takes a few weeks to a few months maybe for most, and much of it is mental. I've had good luck with my students advancing very quickly. It does not take years of tortue with a metronome. All these good technical players got good chops in a relatively short period of time if you read up on their development.

[Santuzzo]

 

One thing is there are many guys who are thought to alt. pick but don't. When I figured out Yngwie's "tricks," it made playing his stuff so much easier. Those transcription books are horribly inaccurate and cause years of frustration. The notes need to be arranged correctly and the right hand needs to use the certain muscles and picking form to execute a certain style. You can't do it all. Someone who's very metronomic like Petrucci and Gilbert will have a hard time doing Yngwie style or Eric Johnson type stuff and vice versa. They have very different approaches and even use different muscles and picking form. That allows them to do certain things well. There's a lot to it and I'd suggest getting with a teacher in that style so you can see what to work on and how to develop. I played for 25 years and could not play fast no matter how much I worked on this stuff with metronomes and rigid practices etc... It wasn't until that light bulb went off and I figured out my picking. Then it came super fast. It really only takes a few weeks to a few months maybe for most, and much of it is mental. I've had good luck with my students advancing very quickly. It does not take years of tortue with a metronome. All these good technical players got good chops in a relatively short period of time if you read up on their development.

 

 

Cool !

So, your picking was not gettign faster in many years?

What exactly was it that you changed in your technique to make your picking faster?

 

I thnk I kinda had something similar, maybe not very drastic, but I used to pick from the wrist, and I could never get much picking speed that way. This is probably due to the fact that I'm a lefty playing righty. So, a few years ago, I started changing my picking to elbow picking, and I was able to pick so much faster than before.

[buddastrat]

Yes it all happened in a short time, but I switched from elbow years ago. I used to get elbow pain and I like how you have more control over muting and damping when you're not moving your whole arm.

 

Watch some videos of players you admire and mimic their movements. One thing that is always commented on with Yngwie is how effortlessly he makes it look by barely moving his hand. He picks from the wrist but some of his movement is from the thumb, only for certain things though. Very important. I worked on that and got comfortable with that style and it came to me. That effortless type of playing where you hand barely needs to move. I like that natural, loose and hardly trying style some guys have. Then there are guys like Vinnie Moore or Michael Angelo who shred well, but look so laborous doing it.

 

I quit struggling and instead of working on the hardest way to play something, I let the chops come to me. and that means I basically threw away the metronome! The metronome is not always a good thing. It's a lot like someone trying to lose weight and constantly weighing themselves. If you ever dieted, you know how that goes.

 

Eric Johnson says this about practicing as well. He'll play with a line until he finds the easiest form of execution for his style.

[Jasco]

 

...and that means I basically threw away the metronome! The metronome is not always a good thing...

 

 

 

Yikes!

 

I suppose if you don't care about playing in time the metronome isn't always a good thing.

 

 

If you do care about playing in time, I'd say the metronome is always a good thing.

[buddastrat]

 

Yikes! I suppose if you don't care about playing in time the metronome isn't always a good thing. If you do care about playing in time, I'd say the metronome is always a good thing.

 

 

 

 

Yikes, maybe you should re-read and comprehend my post and the analogy I used. I said it's not always a good thing, meaning that it often is good, but sometimes I find it isn't for certain things.

 

A metronome is very valid for learning time. I'm talking about dwelling on it too much for numbers, bpm's and NPS.

[Jasco]

Perhaps you should state that more clearly, as it's easy to interpret your message as implying that one shouldn't train with a metronome, even after re-reading.

 

I would agree that dwelling on a metronome for figuring out notes-per-second pointless.

[Big Muff]

Yes it all happened in a short time, but I switched from elbow years ago. I used to get elbow pain and I like how you have more control over muting and damping when you're not moving your whole arm. Watch some videos of players you admire and mimic their movements. One thing that is always commented on with Yngwie is how effortlessly he makes it look by barely moving his hand. He picks from the wrist but some of his movement is from the thumb, only for certain things though. Very important. I worked on that and got comfortable with that style and it came to me. That effortless type of playing where you hand barely needs to move. I like that natural, loose and hardly trying style some guys have. Then there are guys like Vinnie Moore or Michael Angelo who shred well, but look so laborous doing it. I quit struggling and instead of working on the hardest way to play something, I let the chops come to me. and that means I basically threw away the metronome! The metronome is not always a good thing. It's a lot like someone trying to lose weight and constantly weighing themselves. If you ever dieted, you know how that goes. Eric Johnson says this about practicing as well. He'll play with a line until he finds the easiest form of execution for his style.

 

Michael Angelo's playing doesn't look effortless?

 

 

About as effortless as it gets if you ask me.