Alternate picking frustration

[Santuzzo]

Lately I been working on this exercise for tremolo picking out of Troy Stetina's Speed Mechanics book (exercise 25).
And instead of getting better, it just seems to get worse.
This is so frustrating.
I don't know why that is? 2 weeks ago I could play that exercise faster and at much more ease...I really don't understand this.

It even drives me to the point of having rage-fits:mad:

I also noticed, I can motsly get rid off all the tension in my picking hand/arm/shoulder, but my lower back will tense up.
Practicing while sitting seems to help, but I think, I should practice while standing most of the time....

Anybody else have this???

[Virgman]

Some of those exercises are a waste of time.

[Santuzzo]

Some of those exercises are a waste of time.

 

 

Which ones in particular?

Can you elaborate?

 

Exercise 25 sure is NOT a waste of time, unless you can play it effortlessly at say 160 BPM or more.

[Virgman]

Here's my thoughts.

 

And I don't know exactly which one #25 in Speed Mechanics is.

 

I prefer "exercises" that relate directly to a useful music situation.

 

For example a scale fragment that can be played in a real situation is good.

 

Example:

 

--9--7--6--

----9--7--6--

-------7--6--4--

----------7--6--4--

--------------------

----------------------

 

That's from the G major scale.

 

 

But this is a waste of time:

 

1-2-3-4------

---------1-2-3-4---etc.

 

Has no use in real music.

 

My comment is meant in general terms.

 

There are many scale fragments that can be used for speed exercises and also in playing music.

 

Some of these other "exercises" are useless.

 

Paul Gilbert's exercises for example are mostly all scale based so you can actually use them. Batio too.

 

You can make up your own.

[Santuzzo]

Here's my thoughts. And I don't know exactly which one #25 in Speed Mechanics is. I prefer "exercises" that relate directly to a useful music situation. For example a scale fragment that can be played in a real situation is good. Example: --9--7--6-- ----9--7--6-- -------7--6--4-- ----------7--6--4-- -------------------- ---------------------- That's from the G major scale. But this is a waste of time: 1-2-3-4------ ---------1-2-3-4---etc. Has no use in real music. My comment is meant in general terms. There are many scale fragments that can be used for speed exercises and also in playing music. Some of these other "exercises" are useless.

OK, I get your point, eventhough I only partially agree.

This 1234 stuff could be useful for chromatics, like if you wanted to play flight of the bumble bee.
Actually, most of Stetina's exercises do make use of scale patterns and are thus usable in a musical context. Only very few of his exercises are not in a tonal/scalar context.
I think Speed Mechanics is a great book !

[Jasco]

But this is a waste of time: 1-2-3-4------ ---------1-2-3-4---etc. Has no use in real music.

 

 

I find chromatic runs useful in real music quite often.

[Virgman]

OK, I get your point, eventhough I only partially agree. This 1234 stuff could be useful for chromatics, like if you wanted to play flight of the bumble bee. Actually, most of Stetina's exercises do make use of scale patterns and are thus usable in a musical context. Only very few of his exercises are not in a tonal/scalar context. I think Speed Mechanics is a great book !

 

The Bebop scale uses the 4-3-2-1 but it would be more useful in that case to practice actual bebop licks that contain it.

 

My point is make sure what you are spending hours practicing is truly worthwhile.

 

Try to build your exercises around stuff you will use.

[Santuzzo]

The Bebop scale uses the 4-3-2-1 but it would be more useful in that case to practice actual bebop licks that contain it. My point is make sure what you are spending hours practicing is truly worthwhile. Try to build your exercises around stuff you will use.

Yeah, I get your point !
And, I agree !

[Knottyhed]

Lately I been working on this exercise for tremolo picking out of Troy Stetina's Speed Mechanics book (exercise 25). And instead of getting better, it just seems to get worse. This is so frustrating. I don't know why that is? 2 weeks ago I could play that exercise faster and at much more ease...I really don't understand this. It even drives me to the point of having rage-fits:mad: I also noticed, I can motsly get rid off all the tension in my picking hand/arm/shoulder, but my lower back will tense up. Practicing while sitting seems to help, but I think, I should practice while standing most of the time.... Anybody else have this???

 

 

I looked it up, that's the tremolo picking 16th note one. Yeh - it is a very good exercise for being able to internalise 16th's at high speed. I suspect you're doing a number of things wrong -

 

You're obsessing about it, putting yourself under pressure and every time you start doing the exercise you're getting stressed about it. You're trying to hard and getting worse - is there anything you do better when you get frustrated and tense? No.

 

You're also probably trying to play faster than you're comfortable all the time. Slow right down to around 60bpm, concentrate on your picking, concentrate on using as little movement as possible on getting a smooth release of the string, concentrate on picking in time. Get your technique together at a lower speed and you'll naturally be able to go faster - it you're trying to pick faster by simply moving your arm faster with your existing (probably not very good) technique you'll just get tension build up and cramp. You have to work out how to play fast and practice it slow.

 

The thing about that exercise is you should never feel like you're picking fast, not even when you are. You should be relaxed and in control. You should be able to feel the beat and empathise it. If you can't 'feel' 16th notes at 160-200 bpm how the hell are you going to play them? Part of that process is slowly pushing the metronome faster, if your technique is good - the main barrier you'll have to get fast it the mental one of actually being able keep playing your 16ths on the beat. So rather than thinking of speed as a physical thing - take a more mental approach. Focus on perfect technique, perfect timing and keep working accross a full range of tempo's and speed will take care of itself.

 

If you're getting worse at it, take a couple of couple of days off it, play some stuff you enjoy, come back to it with a fresh perspective.

[Santuzzo]

I looked it up, that's the tremolo picking 16th note one. Yeh - it is a very good exercise for being able to internalise 16th's at high speed. I suspect you're doing a number of things wrong - You're obsessing about it, putting yourself under pressure and every time you start doing the exercise you're getting stressed about it. You're trying to hard and getting worse - is there anything you do better when you get frustrated and tense? No. You're also probably trying to play faster than you're comfortable all the time. Slow right down to around 60bpm, concentrate on your picking, concentrate on using as little movement as possible on getting a smooth release of the string, concentrate on picking in time. Get your technique together at a lower speed and you'll naturally be able to go faster - it you're trying to pick faster by simply moving your arm faster with your existing (probably not very good) technique you'll just get tension build up and cramp. You have to work out how to play fast and practice it slow. The thing about that exercise is you should never feel like you're picking fast, not even when you are. You should be relaxed and in control. You should be able to feel the beat and empathise it. If you can't 'feel' 16th notes at 160-200 bpm how the hell are you going to play them? Part of that process is slowly pushing the metronome faster, if your technique is good - the main barrier you'll have to get fast it the mental one of actually being able keep playing your 16ths on the beat. So rather than thinking of speed as a physical thing - take a more mental approach. Focus on perfect technique, perfect timing and keep working accross a full range of tempo's and speed will take care of itself. If you're getting worse at it, take a couple of couple of days off it, play some stuff you enjoy, come back to it with a fresh perspective.

Thanks a lot !

You're right, it is mostly a mental thing, and I'm getting obsessive about reaching the same speed or an even higher sepeed each time I practice this.
I honestly don't think my technique is that bad, unless you consider elbow picking bad technique in general.
I'm using this technique because it is the only way I can reach reasonable speed in picking. But I know it is very important NOT to tense up in the arm and/or shoulder, and I think I'm doing pretty good at that. I used to be very tense there, but I have managed to loosen that up, so I think technique-wise it's not bad.

I think I just need to focus on slowing down the metronome as sson as it's not accurate, no matter how fast it is, and to only push up the speed if I can play it perfectly, accurately and with no tension at any given speed.

Maybe it's a good idea to change tremolo picking exercises, too, so, to maybe take a new exercise for tremolo picking every week or every two weeks or month or whatever.

Again, thanks for your advice and help !

[Knottyhed]

Thanks a lot ! I think I just need to focus on slowing down the metronome as sson as it's not accurate, no matter how fast it is, and to only push up the speed if I can play it perfectly, accurately and with no tension at any given speed. Maybe it's a good idea to change tremolo picking exercises, too, so, to maybe take a new exercise for tremolo picking every week or every two weeks or month or whatever.

 

 

Yeh - whenever I've been working on speed I've found the worst thing you can do is just keep trying to push yourself to play faster or kid yourself about how fast you can play.

 

I've found the most effective thing to do is practice something really slow, think between 40-60bpm for 16th notes. Get the technique down, really feel it, get it so that it is effortless, relaxed, so you're using the minimum of motion and can play it easily enough to hold a conversion if need be without slipping out of time. That feeling and control is what you want to bring into your playing at high speed. So with that particular exercise, totally master it at 60bpm, then start increasing the tempo - the moment you loose that feeling of total control and precision, just drop the tempo down 20bpm and work back up. I think that is the key - setting your max speed as the max speed you are comfortable at, rather than the max speed you can play at - which is no doubt a speed at which you are sloppy and out of control.

 

Even so, every now and again you'll still hit a plateau, and i've found that then it can be helpful to push it - say I'm stuck at 120bpm, I'll play it through once at 132bpm and it'll be a train wreck, then I'll play it at 112bpm concentrating on playing it properly, then I'll try 120 again. Perhaps I'll do a few times, then go back to 60bpm and work back up to 120 in 10bpm increments.

 

Generally it seems to work. If I start getting worse at an exercise (like you're doing) then I take a long break, because at that point I run the risk of practicing something badly and practing something wrong is worse than not practicing it at all.

[Jesse G]

Yeh - whenever I've been working on speed I've found the worst thing you can do is just keep trying to push yourself to play faster or kid yourself about how fast you can play. I've found the most effective thing to do is practice something really slow, think between 40-60bpm for 16th notes. Get the technique down, really feel it, get it so that it is effortless, relaxed, so you're using the minimum of motion and can play it easily enough to hold a conversion if need be without slipping out of time. That feeling and control is what you want to bring into your playing at high speed. So with that particular exercise, totally master it at 60bpm, then start increasing the tempo - the moment you loose that feeling of total control and precision, just drop the tempo down 20bpm and work back up. I think that is the key - setting your max speed as the max speed you are comfortable at, rather than the max speed you can play at - which is no doubt a speed at which you are sloppy and out of control. Even so, every now and again you'll still hit a plateau, and i've found that then it can be helpful to push it - say I'm stuck at 120bpm, I'll play it through once at 132bpm and it'll be a train wreck, then I'll play it at 112bpm concentrating on playing it properly, then I'll try 120 again. Perhaps I'll do a few times, then go back to 60bpm and work back up to 120 in 10bpm increments. Generally it seems to work. If I start getting worse at an exercise (like you're doing) then I take a long break, because at that point I run the risk of practicing something badly and practing something wrong is worse than not practicing it at all.

Fecking amazing post


Also, if you have recording software on your computer, you can make metronome tracks that gradually get faster. You can make it go from a low speed to a higher speed over 8 minutes or so.

[Jasco]

Fecking amazing post Also, if you have recording software on your computer, you can make metronome tracks that gradually get faster. You can make it go from a low speed to a higher speed over 8 minutes or so.

Personally I wouldn't recommend that. You'd be training yourself to rush songs.

[Santuzzo]

Yeh - whenever I've been working on speed I've found the worst thing you can do is just keep trying to push yourself to play faster or kid yourself about how fast you can play. I've found the most effective thing to do is practice something really slow, think between 40-60bpm for 16th notes. Get the technique down, really feel it, get it so that it is effortless, relaxed, so you're using the minimum of motion and can play it easily enough to hold a conversion if need be without slipping out of time. That feeling and control is what you want to bring into your playing at high speed. So with that particular exercise, totally master it at 60bpm, then start increasing the tempo - the moment you loose that feeling of total control and precision, just drop the tempo down 20bpm and work back up. I think that is the key - setting your max speed as the max speed you are comfortable at, rather than the max speed you can play at - which is no doubt a speed at which you are sloppy and out of control. Even so, every now and again you'll still hit a plateau, and i've found that then it can be helpful to push it - say I'm stuck at 120bpm, I'll play it through once at 132bpm and it'll be a train wreck, then I'll play it at 112bpm concentrating on playing it properly, then I'll try 120 again. Perhaps I'll do a few times, then go back to 60bpm and work back up to 120 in 10bpm increments. Generally it seems to work. If I start getting worse at an exercise (like you're doing) then I take a long break, because at that point I run the risk of practicing something badly and practing something wrong is worse than not practicing it at all.

More great ideas !

Thanks so much for your input ! I appreciate it !

In gerneal I tihnk what I will do, is go over mroe different speed settings while prasctcing something like that.
Like today I started exercise 25 at 120, and worekld my way up by 5BPM increments until I wasn't relaxed anymore, which was at about 140 already, and instead of pushing it I went back to 130 and then back to 140 and frome there up to 150, again, that was not relaxed nor accurate, so I went back to 140 and then again worked back up to 150, played it at 150 and 140 a few times and went back down to 120.

I think I'm on the right track now and your ideas have helped me a lot !!!

[Knottyhed]

Cool, sounds like you've got it. Finding the right way to practice is even more important than how much you practice.

[Santuzzo]

It's still so frustrating, though.

 

Now I'm doing that exercise at 130 BPM, picking 16ths.

that's just ridiculous, I'm by no means a beginner, I have been playing for 20 (!!!) years, and have always been practicing lots, and I mean LOTS.

I just seem not to have any talent for technique, and that is what's frustratinga the {censored} out of me.

I see 16 year olds, who have been playing for maybe only a few years, and they just shred away at ease. And I'm putting in countless hours into technique practicng, with near to ZERO RESULTS.

And I am not doing it wrong, I do concentrate on good technique on relaxation and all that. But I'm getting hardly any results.

Right now I really feel like smashing all of my guitars....:mad:

[Knottyhed]

It's still so frustrating, though. Now I'm doing that exercise at 130 BPM, picking 16ths. that's just ridiculous, I'm by no means a beginner, I have been playing for 20 (!!!) years, and have always been practicing lots, and I mean LOTS. I just seem not to have any talent for technique, and that is what's frustratinga the {censored} out of me. I see 16 year olds, who have been playing for maybe only a few years, and they just shred away at ease. And I'm putting in countless hours into technique practicng, with near to ZERO RESULTS. And I am not doing it wrong, I do concentrate on good technique on relaxation and all that. But I'm getting hardly any results. Right now I really feel like smashing all of my guitars.... :mad:

A few points to consider:

1.) These 16 year olds you mention have probably practiced their technique 4 to 8 hours a day for the last 6 years (that's anywhere between 8,000 and 16,000 hours). In short, they are no doubt obsessed and have the luxury of being kids, when you don't have life and responsibilities to impinge on your practice time.

Conversely most relatively 'serious' guitarists probably do an hour a day - meaning they'd have to practice for 24 years before they'd put in the same amount of time... and there's probably a benefit to the intensity of a 4 hour a day plus practice regimen on top of that.

Roughly how many hours have you put in to developing your technique? If you've spent around 8,000 hours on it and still can't shred then maybe you can complain. Otherwise, shut up and go practice

2. You're a lefty playing right handed aren't you? So things are going to be a bit harder for you if you obsess about your alt picking - you'll get there (MA Batio did and he is also left handed), but you'll need to work harder than other people. On the plus side you probably have an advantage with legato type playing over most right handed people.

Of course playing cack handed you could decide alt picking isn't your thing, maybe you need a different approach/mind set. EVH and Brett Garsed are two guitarists that do comparitively little alt picking, Satch is another one that springs to mind as a mostly legato player. All of these guys can shred without neccessarily having amazing alternate picking chops.

3. Don't compare yourself to other people - how does that help you improve? Worry about how good you are, not how good some spotty kid on YouTube is.

4. Stop whining, go practice, you can't rush progress. Your body and mind need time to adapt.

[Virgman]

Right now I really feel like smashing all of my guitars.... :mad:

Don't smash YOUR guitars.

Smash those punk teenagers' guitars.

[Knottyhed]

Don't smash YOUR guitars. Smash those punk teenagers' guitars.

LOL - best advice yet.

[Santuzzo]

A few points to consider: 1.) These 16 year olds you mention have probably practiced their technique 4 to 8 hours a day for the last 6 years (that's anywhere between 8,000 and 16,000 hours). In short, they are no doubt obsessed and have the luxury of being kids, when you don't have life and responsibilities to impinge on your practice time. Conversely most relatively 'serious' guitarists probably do an hour a day - meaning they'd have to practice for 24 years before they'd put in the same amount of time... and there's probably a benefit to the intensity of a 4 hour a day plus practice regimen on top of that. Roughly how many hours have you put in to developing your technique? If you've spent around 8,000 hours on it and still can't shred then maybe you can complain. Otherwise, shut up and go practice 2. You're a lefty playing right handed aren't you? So things are going to be a bit harder for you if you obsess about your alt picking - you'll get there (MA Batio did and he is also left handed), but you'll need to work harder than other people. On the plus side you probably have an advantage with legato type playing over most right handed people. Of course playing cack handed you could decide alt picking isn't your thing, maybe you need a different approach/mind set. EVH and Brett Garsed are two guitarists that do comparitively little alt picking, Satch is another one that springs to mind as a mostly legato player. All of these guys can shred without neccessarily having amazing alternate picking chops. 3. Don't compare yourself to other people - how does that help you improve? Worry about how good you are, not how good some spotty kid on YouTube is. 4. Stop whining, go practice, you can't rush progress. Your body and mind need time to adapt.

Thanks !

You are damn right whne you're telling me to stop whining and just practice.
Could not agree more !

But honestly, I do really think I have put in thoe 8000 hours if not more.
And, yes, I'm a lefty playing right. But so is MAB, like you said, and alos are Vinnie Moore and Steve Morse, both are incredible alternate pickers.
Funny thing is, Vinnie Moore picks from the elbow when he does all the fast picking, I pick like that, too. But, needless to say, nowhere near his speed.

I just actually think, technique doe not come very easyliy to me, I think most other players develop good technique and speed in so much less time. But again, whining about it does not help, only practicing does!

Thanks, again. And sorry about the rant. Just from time to time I get so frustrated....

[Santuzzo]

Don't smash YOUR guitars. Smash those punk teenagers' guitars.

Dude, you crack me up !



You're right, it would be such a pity if I smahsed my new RG1527 7-string that I just bought a few weeks ago, cuz I so love that guitar !

[Virgman]

You know what?

 

We can only do what we can do.

 

Everybody is not Steve Morse or Vinnie Moore, EVH, or Frank Gambale.

 

How many guys can play like that? Not too many.

 

We don't all look like Brad Pitt or George Clooney or sing like Frank Sinatra.

 

Me, I'm just happy to sit in my easy chair, watch TV and smoke a good cigar.

[Santuzzo]

You know what? We can only do what we can do. Everybody is not Steve Morse or Vinnie Moore, EVH, or Frank Gambale. How many guys can play like that? Not too many. We don't all look like Brad Pitt or George Clooney or sing like Frank Sinatra. Me, I'm just happy to sit in my easy chair, watch TV and smoke a good cigar.

No kiddin', man !

Quit being such a smart-ass...:poke:

Just joking, well, sort of.....

It just lies in my nature to always strive for BETTER !

[Knottyhed]

Thanks ! You are damn right whne you're telling me to stop whining and just practice. Could not agree more ! But honestly, I do really think I have put in thoe 8000 hours if not more. And, yes, I'm a lefty playing right. But so is MAB, like you said, and alos are Vinnie Moore and Steve Morse, both are incredible alternate pickers. Funny thing is, Vinnie Moore picks from the elbow when he does all the fast picking, I pick like that, too. But, needless to say, nowhere near his speed. I just actually think, technique doe not come very easyliy to me, I think most other players develop good technique and speed in so much less time. But again, whining about it does not help, only practicing does! Thanks, again. And sorry about the rant. Just from time to time I get so frustrated....

There's always going to be somebody with more technique than you, you can only ever be the best at playing like you. Do you think EVH gets all pissed off cos he can't sweep pick like Frank Gambale? Do you think Steve Vai get all pissed off cos he can't play as fast as Yngwie? To an extent you have to accept your limitations and realise that you can't be better than everyone else at everything - but that's no reason not to try

I don't think technique comes very easily to anyone, I know that I've worked really hard at it, but I know that guys like Yngwie, Vai, Batio etc. worked even harder; in most interviews these guys say that they practiced upwards of 8 hours a day - now why were they putting in all that practice if their chops were happening naturally?

I've definately felt like you alot of times, the negative thoughts - "I've got no talent for this", "I've put in all this time and effort and am no where near as good as I should be" Eventually you just realise that thinking along those lines is irrelevant at best and counterproductive at worst. If you want it badly enough, you've just got to stop stop feeling sorry for yourself and work for it. It doesn't matter how good you are now, you can't change that, you can only change how good you'll be in the future.

[Santuzzo]

Do you think EVH gets all pissed off cos he can't sweep pick like Frank Gambale?

No, I think he only gets pissed off, if the monitor mix isn't right.....:poke:

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?t=1845477