The Delay Lounge

[VicShat]

Originally posted by Cow4prez the delay lounge aint dead yet

*wipes sweat off forehead*
thank god!

[Robzilla]

Originally posted by mrmisse or this pearl one?..

i was just playing the single version of that (AD08) and it rocks!

[bucket_brigadier]

this looks like it was a pretty good deal
univox tape echo

[VicShat]

Originally posted by bluefalcon this looks like it was a pretty good deal univox tape echo

 

i have 2 of those. that is pretty high for those.

[bucket_brigadier]

Originally posted by VicShat i have 2 of those. that is pretty high for those.

 

 

how are they?

[VicShat]

Originally posted by bluefalcon how are they?

 

awesomely unreliable. one of mine is totally shot, the other cuts in and out. tape is hard as a bitch to find. analog man sells them for $45! they sound great though. best self ocilation anywhere.

[gjhardwick]

Originally posted by VicShat awesomely unreliable. one of mine is totally shot, the other cuts in and out. tape is hard as a bitch to find. analog man sells them for $45! they sound great though. best self ocilation anywhere.

 

 

that Univox echo looks exactly the same as a tape echo i own which is made by a company called Melos. Only difference cosmetically is that the melos has an aluminum front panel.

 

sounds great too!

[Cow4prez]

this is from http://www.amnesta.net/edge_delay/

A Study of The Edge's (U2) Guitar Delay
by Tim Darling ( tdarling@amnesta.net )




(I may update this page in the future. It was last updated in December, 2004.)
Norway, 1983. Photo © Hans Arne Nakrem





Overview / Summary
Go to the list of songs




What's so interesting about The Edge's guitar delay?
Most of us won't ever play in a U2 tribute band or try to cover a U2 song in the studio, but discovering how The Edge uses his 'trademark' guitar delay is not limited to that. How his delay sounds and how he uses them are a great resource for any serious guitar player. If you're happy with just plugging in a digital delay pedal and tapping it in time with the song you're playing, then you probably won't care to read much further. I put this page up for the people who realize how much difference the attention to detail can make and who won't ever be happy getting things '95%' right.

The most common question posted about U2's sound on websites and chatrooms devoted to that subject is "what is The Edge's delay setting on Where the Streets Have No Name?". The usual answer is "set it to 3/16 tempo, about 340-350ms". (The same answer is roughly given for questions about any of their songs actually). So out of curiosity, I studied the audio tracks closely and calculated the exact settings he used for that song and others and I found out that the real answer is a little more interesting. That's good news though: maybe the reason that The Edge sounds a little better than you when he plays 'Streets' is because of his 'secrets' that are revealed here. Hopefully it will help you think a little bit differently about how you use delay in your own songs.

Note: This page is strictly limited to discussion about The Edge's delay times. Occassionally I mention other things like the modulation effect of the SDD-3000 delay unit and I include some tablature as needed.



The Edge usually uses 2 different 'types' of delay in any given song: short and long.





The Edge's usual signal path:

Guitar --> [some effects] --> short delay(s) --> [other effects] --> signal split to A/B:

(A) --> long delay #1 --> amp #1 (usually a 1960's Vox AC30)
(A / B are sometimes panned left/right)
(B) --> long delay #2 --> amp #2 (usually a 1960's Vox AC30)

Note that The Edge also seems to use a good compression on his guitar. That's a key piece to getting the delay
to sound right. I won't discuss it much more here, but it's probably used on almost all of the recordings.


Disclaimer:
The above is a generalization. See the pages for each of the individual songs for specifics.

Futher, for the purposes of these pages, I'm not really concerned about his signal path. I presented the 'evidence'
for the types of delays he's using - where, when, how long for each of the songs.
From that, I reconstructed what I think would be the most likely signal path.

And also, for the most part, I only studied the album recordings. For any given tour, he may change his setup.





The short delay (5-20ms, 3-4 repeats) is not audible to the naked ear as a delay. The Edge uses it to thicken and warm his guitar sound.

In all cases, the short delay is earlier in the signal chain than the long delays. (Since Edge usually uses 2 long delays at a time in a song, then if this were not true and the short delays were placed after each of the long delays, then his initial attack would sound muddier since there would be more than one short delay units hitting right after the attack- one from each of the long delays' signal chains).

For the short delays, the settings rarely need to be changed and he appears to leave it on all the time.

Occassionally, Edge chains 2 of these short delays together - see 'Wire' or 'Bullet the Blue Sky'. Also, occassionally, Edge doesn't use this (at least with as noticeable an effect) - see 'All I Want Is You'.



Update: There are some people who claim that the 'short delays' I propose he uses are caused by either his guitar picks or room echo. Both are possibilities, here's more info. Discussion of Edge's guitar picks is out of the scope of this discussion, but I'll mention it as it could relate to a 'delay' effect:

For the guitar picks: Edge's guitar picks (Herdims) have a dimpled half and a flat half. The dimpled half is supposed to be where you hold the pick (it gives it a better grip). Apparently Edge holds the pick either backwards or sideways so that the dimpled part of the pick grates the strings, causing what some have suggested could create the 'short delay' sound (its main effect is to sharpen the sound and give it a slightly grating punch.) I studied the effect of the Herdim dimpled picks on a guitar signal and I posted the results here. The result: the Herdim picks are not the cause of the 'short delay' effect.

Further points: The short delay effect is very consistent during a given song. For instance, it's exactly 4-5 repeats and they're all the same speed (5ms or 20 ms). A pick effect would not be as precise. Further a pick effect would be more consistent from song to song, whereas I hear a much longer 'short delay' during Streets (20 ms) and it varies from song to song. Incidentally, people have emailed me saying that Edge started holding his guitar pick backwards because he never had any formal training and had been doing that incorrectly from early on. He was using the Herdims at least by the Unforgettable Fire, and perhaps earlier.

For the room echo: This may well be a good argument. I think room echoes tend to have 1 bounceback and then get muddy. The short delays I hear are very precise. I don't know though. It's possible this could be a room echo. Listening to the effect in live recordings maybe a good clue (for instance, I heard the same 20ms short delay in the Streets record version as in the live version). But recording in a good room that gives a good echo is about the same as having an echo pedal, so I'll leave that for someone else to decide.


The long delays (150ms-550ms, almost always set in tempo with the song) make up a big part of Edge's sound. He uses modulated delays which add a vibrato/chorus effect to the delay repeats. In most songs, he uses 2 long delays in parallel set to different tempos and sends them to different amps, as in the diagram above. Occassionally (such as in 'Streets'), he chains the 2 long delays together so that the later delay is fed the delay repeat (wet out only) of the first delay.

His Korg SDD-3000s are mostly used for the long delays. Though the SDD-3000 is a digital delay (it allows you to exactly dial in the delay length which is crucial), the modulation section of it adds a nice warmth. He splits usually his signal at the end of his other effects chains and runs it into 2 SDD-3000s. Those feed directly into his amps (usually Vox AC30s). One reason he does this is to make use of the +10dB output on the SDD-3000s, as Daniel Lanois explained in the quote below.



Quotes about Edge's delay:

"Yeah. I started using them [sDD-3000s] shortly after first working with Edge on The Unforgettable Fire. Basically, I stole his sound. It wasn't a complicated rig: just a guitar he liked through a Korg SDD-3000 digital delay into a Vox. Three components, mono - that's it. The great thing about the Korgs is its three-position level switch, which lets you hit the amp with about 10 extra dB. It's more overdriven than if you just plugged the guitar straight into the amp, even when it's on bypass. But a lot of the guitar sounds on Achtung Baby were recorded through a Korg A3 effects processor." - Daniel Lanois, 'Guitar Player', 1993 ('U2 Producer & 6-String Wizard Daniel Lanois Says You Don't Need Big Money To Make Big Music')


"Everybody's going to remember your songs, it's just that nobody's gonna be able to play them" - Bob Dylan (in reference to Edge's delay-ridden riffs)


"... I became the timekeeper with the band for a while, and Larry would play to me, because everything had to sync with my echo- you can hear that is "Pride," for example. Eventually we made a decision to leave out the echo on War, and the guitar became much more dry and forceful. That sound reappeared, in a sense, on Unforgettable Fire, because of the Hawaiian guitar [a 1939 Epiphone Electar lap steel, as heard on 'Surrender'], but in any case, the guitar treatments almost always came out of things that I was doing." - The Edge, 'Musician' magazine, 1986.






The Songs and their Delay Settings






War (1983)
Edge's delay wasn't used much on this album (see the above quote from 'Musician' magazine)
The Unforgettable Fire (1984)
Pride (includes a 'demo' mp3 with the delay before/after)
Wire
Bad (includes a 'demo' mp3 with the delay before/after)
The Joshua Tree (1987)
Where the Streets Have No Name (includes a 'demo' mp3 with the delay before/after)
I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For
With Or Without You
Bullet the Blue Sky
In God's Country
Rattle And Hum (1989)
Silver and Gold _ (new)
Heartland _ (new)
All I Want Is You _ (new)
Achtung Baby (1991)
One
Until the End of the World
Zooropa (1993)
Zooropa _ (new)
.

[Cow4prez]

Songs that use 3/16 delay *:
Electric Co / The Cry (280ms)
Pride (425ms)
Wire (317ms)
Bad (467ms)
I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For panned left (450ms)
With or Without You (410ms)
In God's Country solo (360ms)
Heartland (420ms)
Silver and Gold (360ms)
All I Want Is You (425ms - almost 3/16)
Until the End of the World (420ms)
Walk On (425ms)

Songs that use 1/16 delay:
An Cat Dubh / Into the Heart panned right (140ms)
Bullet the Blue Sky (200ms)
I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For panned right (150ms)
Beautiful Day (220ms)

Songs that use 2/16 (1/8) delay:
Exit (250ms)

Songs that use 4/16 (1/4) delay:
New Year's Day chorus (450ms)
Do You Feel Loved? (520ms)

Songs that chain 2 delays:
Streets: 3/16 (350ms) with later repeats at 3/32 (175ms)
Zooropa: 2/16 (320ms) with later repeats at 1/16 (160ms)








* What is a '3/16' delay (or 1/16)?

Edge almost always has his delay times in tempo with the song. His favorite setting is '3/16', which is where the delay length is equal to 3 '1/16th' notes. This setting works very well if you're playing straight 1/8th notes, which Edge does often (such as 'Pride' or 'Streets') since the 3/16th delay will fall in between the notes you play.

If the song is 100 beats per minute (bpm), that means that there are 100 quarter (1/4) notes per minute. For example, at 100 bpm:
Each 1/4 note lasts exactly 600 milliseconds (600ms = 60 seconds / 100 bpm).
Each 1/16th note would last 150ms (150ms = 600ms / 4).
And a 3/16th note would last 450 ms (450ms = 150ms * 3).
There's 2 simple 'shortcut' formulas for calculating the delay time when you know the tempo of the song:
1/16 = 15,000 / # of bpm.
3/16 = 45,000 / # of bpm. (Testing with the example above: 45,000 / 100 bpm = 450ms which matches the above calculation).






tdarling@amnesta.net

Your Comments

Hi...and thanks for all your precious study about edge's delay effects. I've been very involved to learn how edge create his own special delay set-up. I've tried on my set-up and ...wow sounds great!! I'm trying to focus my attention during these years on the EQ that Edge always use on his sounds...a sort of mid boost type I guess... Did you try to study also the EQ'ing in the future? I hope so ... Thanks again for all your work. Regards Fabrizio from Italy

-- Landini Fabrizio, Oct 26, 2004

You have done incredible job studying Edge's sound! Thank you very much for this interesting article!

-- Karppinen, Finland, Nov 14, 2004

Like the rest, i'm very pleased with your work and the fact that you have made an effort to share it. Your work has been very helpful! Regards from jonathan in spain.

-- Jonathan Chhugani Mena, Nov 22, 2004

This is the website ive been waiting for. This site has helped me get just the right delay and sound i needed. awsome job thanks alot!

-- Austin Hinegardner, Nov 27, 2004

very impressive. must say i never expected this to be so complex. good work. it seems to me though, that in, i suppose what you'd call the "solo" of "one" at the very end (from about 3:35 to the end), there seems to be the 3/16's delay. its also very noticeable on the slane castle dvd.

-- joel, Dec 1, 2004

i recently began work to recreate edges delay similar to the one heard in 'where the streets have no name." Im using a boss DD3 delay with the 3/16 temp at 340- 550ms. Iv notices that some is just missing. maybe its the panning split (A/B split of the 2 AC30's) or maybe the DD3 just isnt sutable.

-- Gabe martine, Dec 6, 2004

This is a Great piece of research on the edge, his delay effects really are brilliant, but I was wondering if anyone knows what effect he is using when he plays the solo part on Discotheque with that odd distortion.thanks.

-- Jesse, Jan 2, 2005

This is the most thought out explanation I have ever seen. What a great job you have done in defining Dave Evans sound. Also curious what modulation pedals and eq "The Edge uses with this type setup. Regards.

-- Tim, Jan 4, 2005

Thanks for your study of "The edge" guitar tone. I have been working on this for some time but limited by proper equipment and not enough time on my hands. There something about that tone that makes me want to play my guitar. Just got my copy of "vertigo" keep up the good work work.

-- Donald stringer, Jan 15, 2005

In musical terms, 3/16 is said "dotted eight" (1/8+ 1/2*1/8=3/16), and this feature is now more frequently implemented in digital delay units that have a tap tempo function.

-- Carlo Veronelli, Jan 26, 2005

Awesome study...I can't tell you how many guitar players I've asked to help me figure out how to create "the edge's" sound...and none of them had an answer. Of love the delay...there are so many cool things you can do with it. 'The Edge' has obviously capitalized on this one effect.

-- Paul Daigle, Jan 28, 2005

Thanks to your website, I've strung together some effects that are getting me very close to Edge's sound. If you don't have analog delay w/modulation, you can't really get there. I have run a Boss digital delay for the short delay, into a Boss DD20 Gigadelay (use the setting for modulation), into a Line 6 DL4 (analog w/modulation setting) and am getting some great Edge- like sounds. Adding compression really helps. Keep posting songs to the site - keeps us guitar players motivated out here!

-- Jeff , Jan 31, 2005

Thats an amazing study about edge's sound! I'd like to know what delay's brand he uses. I think thats a rack..

-- Dud, Feb 8, 2005
Add a comment

All text and pictures copyright

[jaredge]

As a long time Edge freak, I just wanted to say that this write up on Edge's delay usage is utter crap. There is some truth to the article, but Edge mainly uses one mono delay. Those delay times are also off the mark. Very rarely, for special sounds does Edge ever use stereo delay...ala the version of Bullet the Blue Sky on the Elevation tour.

Jared

[MrSage]

Originally posted by jaredge As a long time Edge freak, I just wanted to say that this write up on Edge's delay usage is utter crap. There is some truth to the article, but Edge mainly uses one mono delay. Those delay times are also off the mark. Very rarely, for special sounds does Edge ever use stereo delay...ala the version of Bullet the Blue Sky on the Elevation tour. Jared

Yeah, it seems like the guy put a lot of time and effort into something that can be done a lot more simply...

 

I listened to those clips, and he's way off on some of the riffs...like Streets, Bad, etc. If you're not doing the riffs right, it doesn't matter how much delay you put on them.

[mischultz]

I'll try and grab a photo here in the next few, but I have a Maxon DD01, which I believe has been there only digital delay thus far. Clean, simple, good.

Michael

[spoonie g]

let's see if I can remember them all.....

danelectro dan-echo: actually a pretty cool echo and I somewhat regret selling it.

boss dd-5 reverse mod: the mod is pretty cool, delay is decent, though admittedly a bit cold on the repeats.

electro harmonix memory man: Great tape-esque sound. But, it broke. Estimate for repair was ridiculous so I ebay'd it as parts. Has some noise on longer repeats (nature of the beast for analog chips), but definitely would like to own another at some point.

Maxon ad-900: Cool delay and has good amount of delay time, but didn't have the "mojo" of the memory man.

Boss dd-6: same as dd-5 in my book.

guyatone md-3: forgot this one.... probably the best "standard" digital delay out there. I still prefer some of the models on the line 6 better though.

line 6 dl-4: Great unit, and exactly what I need with my band. Actually, I could use another delay, but I don't know if I have room (I have two of these on my board). A couple of the models are useless to me, but most of them are pretty cool and useful. I especially like the multi-head, tube echo, and reverse effect. Isn't an exact copy of it's models, but for what I'm doing right now, and the amount of money I can spend, it's a godsend.

[triumphant_gleam]

I've got a DD-3 but I'd really like to find a nice analogue pedal. I'm watching a few on eBay at the moment (AD-9, DM-2, DM-3).

[terryg]

Originally posted by Cow4prez i've been playing the delay feature on the ehx 16 sec dealy a bit. It is nice. I hear that it might sound just the the ehx memory man, but i haven't verify this for myself. The delay is maxed at 1 sec. You control the features...wet, repeat, etc... with sliders.. it's a bit more difficult than knobs but with practice isn't so bad. Will self-oscillate with the feedback slider control. True bypass.

 

 

Cow4prez,

I'm glad you mentioned this. Can anyone compare the EH DMM with the delay functions of the EH 16 Second delay?

Thanks in advance, and this is a very helpful pre-purchase thread.

 

My delayed past: DM-2 in the 80s, sold or lost. Roland SDE-1000 in my rack. I like it, but I need (i.e. "exponentially want") an analog-feeling delay under my feet. The EH 16S seems like it would be a nice package if the delay function is a cloned DMM. Heck, if it isn't DMM-like does it stand up on its own as a respectable delay? Will it effectively modulate like the DMM?

 

Cheers everyone,

Terry

[MrSage]

Do you mean you need something like the Roland that you can stomp on?

I had an SDE-1000 (actually a couple of them), and they were great...I preferred my Korg SDD-2000s (the 3000's baby brother), though, so I kept them instead (I'm down to just one of those now).

But I digress...

I love my Ibanez DML-10. It's Boss-sized, but it has modulated delays on it. Ibanez made four of them, the DML, the DML10, the DML20, and the PDM1. The first three were very similar, with the main difference being delay time. The DML10 is generally recognized as being the best combination of warm tone and delay time (about 900ms tops). The 20 has longer times, but feels a bit more like a boss digital delay...

The PDM1 is much harder to find, but it stores presets.

The DML series are a lot like Deluxe Memory Men...except with a smaller footprint and none of the mushyness that I disliked about the DMMs I had (three so far...none have had quite the right "mojo" to them).

Bottom line is that the Ibanez DMLs are great. You can find them for under $100 from time to time, but people seem to be realizing how great they are. Prices are more like this recently:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=41415&item=7304400456

If mine broke, I'd buy that one immediately. It's hard to lay out that kind of cash for something you haven't had before...but once I tried it, I realized it was the stompbox delay I'd been looking for all my life.

[Vatican]

For those of you who are analog delay-aholics, and who've tried the new half breeds (Carl Martin Delayla XL, and T-Rex Replica), what do you think?

[Blungo]

Originally posted by Vatican For those of you who are analog delay-aholics, and who've tried the new half breeds (Carl Martin Delayla XL, and T-Rex Replica), what do you think?

 

 

I don't know if i qualify as an anologoholic (wow! i just coined term.) but i've had and played quite a few analog (including tape) delays and my DD-20 really does it for me. Never tried the replica or XL although i'd like to.

[bushido]

which would you say is the best delay i can get with the reverse option?

if i cant find one, ill just get the guyatone.

[terryg]

Originally posted by MrSage Do you mean you need something like the Roland that you can stomp on? I had an SDE-1000 (actually a couple of them), and they were great...I preferred my Korg SDD-2000s (the 3000's baby brother), though, so I kept them instead (I'm down to just one of those now).

 

 

MrSage,

I made a vague statement - I'm actually not looking for an SDE-1000 in a stompbox form factor.

 

 

Originally posted by MrSage But I digress... I love my Ibanez DML-10. It's Boss-sized, but it has modulated delays on it. Ibanez made four of them, the DML, the DML10, the DML20, and the PDM1. The first three were very similar, with the main difference being delay time. The DML10 is generally recognized as being the best combination of warm tone and delay time (about 900ms tops). The 20 has longer times, but feels a bit more like a boss digital delay...

 

 

Thanks for the DML notes. I noticed other references to them in this excellent thread, but I think my GAS has added blinders to me as well.

 

The 16S Delay's recording function and attached "gimmicks" caused me to think of it as having potential as an excellent practice tool, especially with its MIDI sync. Having a good solid "normal" delay with DMM flavoring sweetens it for me. When I started to consider what I'm looking for and how I think I'd use such a device, the Line 6 DL4 appeared on the radar. The stereo ins/outs are particularly handy, and it has a ton of possibly useful features. It doesn't appear to provide the sync functions, so it might be sunk (bleh). Then again, it could be an excellent live performance tool in place of the EH 16S. Both, however, are big real estate eaters.

 

Going the stompbox route for "live" use probably makes the most sense, which obviously opens me up to a lot of options. Who knows? I'll probably end up with a big box like the EH or the DL4 and eventually I'll find myself using and depending on short/simple/conventional delays in my "everyday" playing. Hopefully by then the Next Big Thing in pedal delays will hit the scene, GASsing me all over again (analogman, anyone?).

 

This really is an excellent thread.

[ganpachi]

I get my DD-20 in the mail tomorrow! Yeeha!

Now all I have to do is rebuy an Ibanez DE-7, and I will be swimming in echos again!

[Uchison]

I am trying to mail a really nice picture of my beautifull analog delay, but it's too big:( . Haven't figured out yet how to make it smaller.
Any ideas? Anybody?

[David Jatt]

Try posting it to www.2and2.net or if that doesn't work you could email it to me (stevera at gmail dot com) and I'll put it up for you.

[MrSage]

You could also put it up at www.tinypic.com

Then just use the {IMG} button to insert the URL that TinyPic gives you.

For instance, my new delay:

[Uchison]

Ok let's see if this works
http://www.2and2.net/Uploads/Images/Guyatone.jpg

I hope it does. It's a nice delay. I have more pictures I could mail...if intrested..