Members martindcx1e Posted June 3, 2006 Members Share Posted June 3, 2006 I heard somewhere awhile back that tube watts are 3x as loud as SS watts. So if a tube amp is 30W it can get as loud as a 90W SS amp. I know tube amps are louder but just wondering about this 3x rule really. True or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members beno Posted June 3, 2006 Members Share Posted June 3, 2006 I dunno if it's precise, but it's a rule of thumb...I remember first reading about this on Guitar World. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Welladjusted Posted June 3, 2006 Members Share Posted June 3, 2006 I've heard this as well, but only when the tube amp is running at full volume. Which is why some amps are best paired with cabs rated at twice the amp's rating. This could very well be superstition, of course. The guy who told me this also mentioned that the Mesa 2:90 is a "cab killer" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jarick Posted June 3, 2006 Members Share Posted June 3, 2006 In my experience, tube amps kill solid state amps for volume. I've got a new band going where one guitarist is using a 100W Marshall Valvestate (which doesn't sound half bad) and the other is using a 50W Marshall DSL. Both are using humbuckers. When turned halfway up, the DSL cuts right through the band, while the Valvestate is running literally full tilt and can't be heard. I think it has something to do with the quality of the components. Solid state amps are usually rated close to their max output and have cheaper transformers than their tube counterparts. The tube amps seem to put out more wattage when they start clipping the output tubes. For example, the Univalve is rated at 15 watts, but with a 6L6 cranked, it puts out closer to 25 watts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members U R B& Posted June 3, 2006 Members Share Posted June 3, 2006 no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sglespaulartist Posted June 3, 2006 Members Share Posted June 3, 2006 It also has to do with the ouput. See, tube amps have tubes in the preamp and they have tubes for output, which boost the power rating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mangojeep66 Posted June 3, 2006 Members Share Posted June 3, 2006 I don't know the math, but I would say from experience that's close depending on the amp. Even a relatively low wattage Boogie will make your ears bleed. A ss can't do that...I've owned them. I will never go back to ss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members leadfootdriver Posted June 3, 2006 Members Share Posted June 3, 2006 I thought a Watt was a Watt. What's heavier, a pound of lead, or a pound of feathers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Alchemist Posted June 3, 2006 Members Share Posted June 3, 2006 One watt is one joule of energy per second. 1 W = 1 J/s = 1 newton meter per second = 1 kg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Randy Van Sykes Posted June 3, 2006 Members Share Posted June 3, 2006 The problem is the way alot of SS amps are rated.Those 100 watt SS amps usually go into clipping way before 100 watts...I hava an SS NAD amp that is rated at 70 watts but it's peak output it 250 watts. It's deceiving when thay say an SS amp is 100 watts...usually 100 watts at pure distortion. A 10 watt tube amp will usually go louder before breakup over a 10 watt SS amp. But the SS amp is rated wrong IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mangojeep66 Posted June 3, 2006 Members Share Posted June 3, 2006 Originally posted by Alchemist One watt is one joule of energy per second. 1 W = 1 J/s = 1 newton meter per second = 1 kg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Alchemist Posted June 3, 2006 Members Share Posted June 3, 2006 Originally posted by Randy Van Sykes The problem is the way alot of SS amps are rated.Those 100 watt amps go into clipping way before 100 watts...I hava a NAD amp that is rated at 70 watts but it's peak output it 250 watts. It's deceiving when thay say an SS amp is 100 watts...usually 100 watts at pure distortion. A 10 watt tube amp will usually go louder before breakup over a 10 watt SS amp. But the SS amp is rated wrong IMO. A lot of people also go comparing a cheap 100 watt SS combo versus $1000+ 30 watt tube amps. Again, its also the quality of projection from the speaker, the cabinet, the frequency emphasis that contribute to the myth of tube watts being louder. A watt is still a watt, it makes no difference. However TUBE AMPS are usualy louder than many SS amps because of other factors, but not because of the wattage difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Alchemist Posted June 3, 2006 Members Share Posted June 3, 2006 Originally posted by mangojeep66 ...than I can only attribute the difference in volume to SS manufactures inflating there specs for marketing purposes....'cause, my Boogie (50W) is louder than any SS I've owned with a higher rating. Its the quality of SS amps that you are comparing to. Most are cheap with crappy components. Even amongst tube amps, a 150 watt tube amp is barely! louder than your average 30-40 watt tube amp. So its the quality of the amp in question and the way in which it works. Another reason for SS amps typicaly being higher wattage is not because they are designed to be louder, but rather to avoid clipping, ie to maintain headroom. This is desireable in tube amps, sounds like ass for SS amps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members amplayer Posted June 3, 2006 Members Share Posted June 3, 2006 Of course, a watt is a watt. Manufacturers are not really allowed to claim things that are blatantly false. The difference is that you can distort the power tubes on a tube amp and still like the sound. If you overdrive the power stage on an SS amp, it usually sounds awful. So, for SS amps, either you don't overdrive them because you hate it, or else the manufacturer has actually built it so you can't overdrive the power stage. There is one other case, which is where the SS amp manufacturer has built the power stage with circuitry that allows it to go into an overdrive state similar to tube circuits. In that case, the SS amp should be nearly as loud as an equivalent tube amp. The Peavey Transtube amps are an example of this. I haven't done a direct comparison but I will say that these Peaveys are very loud. As we all know, distortion also compresses, so when you overdrive the power stage of a tube amp you are also compressing. Whether the difference is 3x or not is probably garbage because it matters which amp and which kind of tubes you're using, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Randy Van Sykes Posted June 3, 2006 Members Share Posted June 3, 2006 Originally posted by Alchemist A lot of people also go comparing a cheap 100 watt SS combo versus $1000+ 30 watt tube amps. Again, its also the quality of projection from the speaker, the cabinet, the frequency emphasis that contribute to the myth of tube watts being louder. A watt is still a watt, it makes no difference. However TUBE AMPS are usualy louder than many SS amps because of other factors, but not because of the wattage difference. Also tube amps run at a much higher voltage...much more robust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mangojeep66 Posted June 3, 2006 Members Share Posted June 3, 2006 Originally posted by Alchemist A lot of people also go comparing a cheap 100 watt SS combo versus $1000+ 30 watt tube amps. Again, its also the quality of projection from the speaker, the cabinet, the frequency emphasis that contribute to the myth of tube watts being louder. A watt is still a watt, it makes no difference. However TUBE AMPS are usualy louder than many SS amps because of other factors, but not because of the wattage difference. A watt is just a measured value...strictly mathematical; isn't it? It's a measure of energy converted to heat, I think. So, that would lead me to believe that a tube amp is just more efficient at converting that lossiness to sound pressure energy than an SS amp. NO???? You're a physics man; aren't you? What's the verdict? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members amplayer Posted June 3, 2006 Members Share Posted June 3, 2006 Originally posted by Alchemist One watt is one joule of energy per second. 1 W = 1 J/s = 1 newton meter per second = 1 kg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Randy Van Sykes Posted June 3, 2006 Members Share Posted June 3, 2006 Might as well wait for the amp builders to chime in...alot of misinformation is gonna happen in the meantime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SteinbergerHack Posted June 3, 2006 Members Share Posted June 3, 2006 So far, none of these statements have been correct, although the comment about the rating method is close. It has nothing to do with the quality of the components or the type of preamp. The power output rating for an amp is based on its clean output level - BEFORE clipping. When a SS amp begins to clip, it clips hard. If the current output at the 100W rating is 12.5 Amps RMS, then the peak current is 17.5 Amps (assuming a sine wave). A SS amp WILL NOT put out any more current than this - a transistor hits a hard clip and stops there - no more current is available. Although you can put out more RMS Watts distorted, you can't put out any more peak Amps - it just won't happen. A tube output, OTOH, does not clip hard. When the tube begins to clip, it does so in a different, 'softer' manner. Therefore, at the same 100W clean rating, the tube is still capable of putting out more than the 17.5 Amps peak, although it will not be clean power. Example, if you drive the output section of a tube amp to 120% of full-scale, it will put out more than 100%, but less than 120% (depending on the specific transfer function). Most tube amps will put out 30-50% more PEAK Amps than a similarly-rated SS amp, thus giving them the ability to drive more power than the clean rating would suggest. This is why tube amps will go far louder than SS amps of the same rating. This is also why SS amps (in general) sound harsher - the 'hard' clipping of the output transistors creates odd-order harmonics (a square wave, if you overdrive it enough). I know this is technical, but the final point is that tubes have a very different transfer function from transistors, so their ratings don't really mean the same thing for an overdriven signal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Alchemist Posted June 3, 2006 Members Share Posted June 3, 2006 Originally posted by Randy Van Sykes Might as well wait for the amp builders to chime in...alot of misinformation is gonna happen in the meantime. pffft what do they know:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Randy Van Sykes Posted June 3, 2006 Members Share Posted June 3, 2006 Originally posted by Alchemist pffft what do they know:D We're lucky to have those dudes hanging around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 64DUECE Posted June 3, 2006 Members Share Posted June 3, 2006 Originally posted by Randy Van Sykes The problem is the way alot of SS amps are rated. Those 100 watt SS amps usually go into clipping way before 100 watts...I hava an SS NAD amp that is rated at 70 watts but it's peak output it 250 watts. It's deceiving when thay say an SS amp is 100 watts...usually 100 watts at pure distortion. A 10 watt tube amp will usually go louder before breakup over a 10 watt SS amp. But the SS amp is rated wrong IMO. Yup. That's what I thought comparing my old 80w Randall es with my 50w Marshall 1987x through the same cabinet. And the last time I played at gig volume w/ a friend that has a Mode 4, my Vox kept up and cut through in a band setting waaay more than I thought it was capable of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Oblivion DC Posted June 3, 2006 Members Share Posted June 3, 2006 Originally posted by SteinbergerHack So far, none of these statements have been correct, although the comment about the rating method is close. It has nothing to do with the quality of the components or the type of preamp. The power output rating for an amp is based on its clean output level - BEFORE clipping. When a SS amp begins to clip, it clips hard. If the current output at the 100W rating is 12.5 Amps RMS, then the peak current is 17.5 Amps (assuming a sine wave). A SS amp WILL NOT put out any more current than this - a transistor hits a hard clip and stops there - no more current is available. Although you can put out more RMS Watts distorted, you can't put out any more peak Amps - it just won't happen. A tube output, OTOH, does not clip hard. When the tube begins to clip, it does so in a different, 'softer' manner. Therefore, at the same 100W clean rating, the tube is still capable of putting out more than the 17.5 Amps peak, although it will not be clean power. Example, if you drive the output section of a tube amp to 120% of full-scale, it will put out more than 100%, but less than 120% (depending on the specific transfer function). Most tube amps will put out 30-50% more PEAK Amps than a similarly-rated SS amp, thus giving them the ability to drive more power than the clean rating would suggest. This is why tube amps will go far louder than SS amps of the same rating. This is also why SS amps (in general) sound harsher - the 'hard' clipping of the output transistors creates odd-order harmonics (a square wave, if you overdrive it enough). I know this is technical, but the final point is that tubes have a very different transfer function than tubes, so their ratings don't really mean the same thing for an overdriven signal. +1 Well put - although your last sentence needs to be fixed. ...final point is that tubes have a very different transfer function than tubes, so... but other than that, spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SteinbergerHack Posted June 3, 2006 Members Share Posted June 3, 2006 Originally posted by Oblivion DC +1 Well put - although your last sentence needs to be fixed. ...final point is that tubes have a very different transfer function than tubes, so... Doh!!! ...fixed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Alchemist Posted June 3, 2006 Members Share Posted June 3, 2006 Originally posted by Randy Van Sykes We're lucky to have those dudes hanging around. Yep, thats one of the best things about this place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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