attn: I apologize for this (politics inside)

[la0tsu]

Originally posted by guitar shmoe I get cha now! and I agree with you pretty much...though, do you think Israel can 'negotiate' with these people? What do you suggest they do?

 

 

Unfortunately, I think what we need is for the Palestinians to all get behind one leader. As many faults as he had, at least Arafat could represent the palestinians as a whole. Without that, there is no partner.

 

I think that while Israel is unilaterally responding to terrorist attacks, they should also unilaterally do things like provide infrastructure for the palestinians. Not that they have a moral duty, but rather because they don't. That is the kind of thing that could help build a foundation of trust.

 

I'm sure that that isn't anywhere near enough, but I think it is the kind of "outside the box" thinking that is needed to get past the standoff we currently are looking at. Anyway, I've got to get out of here. Thanks for the argument! It was fun.

[17 Tubes]

Originally posted by la0tsu The inspectors certainly kept him occupied. He certainly wasn't going to deal with Iran. Syria, perhaps, but if any existed and went to Syria, it's because we invaded and didn't secure the borders. .

 

 

I like how you go point for point. Itmakes you look more of an authority on the subject.

 

 

However, I have to take issue with something you said. I haven't decided if it takes away ALL of your credibility (whcih I am sure that you couldn't care any less) becuase o fyou spinning the issue, or it was just a minor word choice.

 

 

You say "the inspectors kept him(saddam) busy)".

 

 

 

I don't feel that is quite accurate. What REALLY happened is Saddam kept the inspectors occupied. For 12 years. I distinctly recall the inspectors comlained of mysterious and sudden traffic jams along their routes. And other odd things that kept them from doing their job.

 

 

Funny how a traffic jam can keep one occupied for 12 years.

 

 

But you already know it's not always WHAT you say. A slight juggle of words can make things appear to have a totally different meaning.

[guitar shmoe]

Originally posted by la0tsu Unfortunately, I think what we need is for the Palestinians to all get behind one leader. As many faults as he had, at least Arafat could represent the palestinians as a whole. Without that, there is no partner. I think that while Israel is unilaterally responding to terrorist attacks, they should also unilaterally do things like provide infrastructure for the palestinians. Not that they have a moral duty, but rather because they don't. That is the kind of thing that could help build a foundation of trust. I'm sure that that isn't anywhere near enough, but I think it is the kind of "outside the box" thinking that is needed to get past the standoff we currently are looking at. Anyway, I've got to get out of here. Thanks for the argument! It was fun.

 

 

Your ideas are worth a try.....benevolence is always a good thing!

[17 Tubes]

Originally posted by la0tsu Ooops! That's what happens when you get this blowhard goin'! I never said anything about equality of guilt. But, if you are one of the moderate palestinians who never attacked Israel, and whose home was demolished, or who lost your brother/sister/mother/daughter/father/son, it would seem that Israel DID start it to you. This is what YOU are not getting. Hey, I have repeatedly said that I don't think the terrorists should be attacking Israel. Why don't you get that? No, they have a trained military that kills innocent palestinians from afar. That may not be their goal, but it IS the result. You keep ignoring the fact that NOT ALL ARABS OR PALESTINIANS carry out these acts or support them, yet all are subject to Israeli retaliation. That is not justice. If your neighbor kills my wife, am I justified in killing everyone in your neighborhood? I am NOT defending terrorists, and I don't see why you don't understand that. I am trying to show you what is wrong with the Israeli response. Should they defend themselves? Absolutely. But responding with excessive force is NOT going to make the terror stop.

 

 

 

People hate America becuase of a faction. They have condemendn all Americans based on the policy of the leaders.

 

 

SO that makes us...the citzens not responsible for annything the government does?

 

No...the people of Palestine share anything their "governement" does, just like we do, the French, the Germans.

 

 

What is "excessive force". I think most of us have no idea WHAT "xcessive force" is to a Middle East person or nation.

 

Israel is not like Spain or France...where they wait for a certain threshold of murder and genocide before they (might) decide to act. Hezbellah decided on their own to ESCULATE the situation, not Israel. Israel is telling them they will not stand for it.

 

 

 

IS it right for the innocent Palestinians to suffer...no. But then, thatseems to be the way for many terrorists. They don't give a Allah-damn about any innocents, do they? Yet some people would ask it of Israel?

[17 Tubes]

Originally posted by guitar shmoe Your ideas are worth a try.....benevolence is always a good thing!

 

 

Until they chop your head off.

[draelyc]

Originally posted by 17 Tubes People hate America becuase of a faction. They have condemendn all Americans based on the policy of the leaders. SO that makes us...the citzens not responsible for annything the government does? No...the people of Palestine share anything their "governement" does, just like we do, the French, the Germans.

Just got to pop in to point out where this "logic" leads, bro: if the citizens are guilty for what their government does, then the terrorists were right to kill 3000 American citizens on 9/11.

Personally, *I* don't think the terrorists were right to do that.

[la0tsu]

Originally posted by 17 Tubes People hate America becuase of a faction. They have condemendn all Americans based on the policy of the leaders. SO that makes us...the citzens not responsible for annything the government does?

 

 

I personally don't feel responsible for the policies of a leadership I didn't vote for. Why should I? I did everything within my legal rights and economic means to oppose them.

 

 

No...the people of Palestine share anything their "governement" does, just like we do, the French, the Germans.

 

 

The flaw with you logic is that the actions you denounce are not made by the leadership of the nations in question. They are made by a minority faction. It would be similar to if the Michigan Militia started throwing rockets into Sault Saint Marie.

 

 

What is "excessive force". I think most of us have no idea WHAT "xcessive force" is to a Middle East person or nation. Israel is not like Spain or France...where they wait for a certain threshold of murder and genocide before they (might) decide to act. Hezbellah decided on their own to ESCULATE the situation, not Israel. Israel is telling them they will not stand for it.

 

 

I already addressed this. Do some reading.

 

 

IS it right for the innocent Palestinians to suffer...no. But then, thatseems to be the way for many terrorists. They don't give a Allah-damn about any innocents, do they? Yet some people would ask it of Israel?

 

 

Frankly, yes, I would ask it of Israel. If they are the representative of Democracy, the west, and "good' in the area, if they are going to accept the largest foreign aid package we offer, then yes I would ask them to give a damn about innocents. If that's so hard to understand, I don't know what to say. I strongly believe that if you want to hold the moral high ground, you need to find a way to achieve your goals without lowering yourself to the standard you abhor.

[la0tsu]

Originally posted by guitar shmoe Your ideas are worth a try.....benevolence is always a good thing!

 

 

I doubt that it would be the solution in and of itself, but I think if you're prepared to use the stick, you need to be prepared to use the carot, and if you want to deall in good faith, you should be willing to demonstrate good faith.

[la0tsu]

Originally posted by 17 Tubes I like how you go point for point. Itmakes you look more of an authority on the subject. However, I have to take issue with something you said. I haven't decided if it takes away ALL of your credibility (whcih I am sure that you couldn't care any less) becuase o fyou spinning the issue, or it was just a minor word choice. You say "the inspectors kept him(saddam) busy)". I don't feel that is quite accurate. What REALLY happened is Saddam kept the inspectors occupied. For 12 years. I distinctly recall the inspectors comlained of mysterious and sudden traffic jams along their routes. And other odd things that kept them from doing their job. Funny how a traffic jam can keep one occupied for 12 years. But you already know it's not always WHAT you say. A slight juggle of words can make things appear to have a totally different meaning.

 

 

You ignore the fact that (assuming there were weapons or a weapons program at this point, something that has not been demonstrated on any level), arranging traffic jams and moving labratories took resources away from any such activity, and prevented any further production or research. It takes two to tango.

 

And while you mention complaints of the inspectors, you negect to mention that the inspectors also said that they felt Hussein was contained.

[Lgehrig4]

Originally posted by draelyc Just got to pop in to point out where this "logic" leads, bro: if the citizens are guilty for what their government does, then the terrorists were right to kill 3000 American citizens on 9/11. Personally, *I* don't think the terrorists were right to do that.

In their eyes yes

[Lgehrig4]

Originally posted by la0tsu I personally don't feel responsible for the policies of a leadership I didn't vote for. Why should I? I did everything within my legal rights and economic means to oppose them.

 

 

Feel however you want. In the eyes of the enemy you are responsible and thats all the matters. It doesn't matter who you voted for, you're American. If you truly want to disassociate yourself, move to another country.............

 

.....I heard that Yusef Islam (Cat Stevens) is giving discounted guitar lessons to all who convert.

[dughaze]

Originally posted by Lgehrig4 Feel however you want. In the eyes of the enemy you are responsible and thats all the matters. It doesn't matter who you voted for, you're American. If you truly want to disassociate yourself, move to another country.............

 

 

How I wish some people would disassociate themselves from this country.

 

I also wish Israel would take care of business in the Middle East, then we might have a small shot at world peace.

[la0tsu]

Originally posted by Lgehrig4 Feel however you want. In the eyes of the enemy you are responsible and thats all the matters. It doesn't matter who you voted for, you're American.

 

 

Honestly, I doubt that the enemy, whoever they might be, have given one tenth of a second's thought to my person level of responsibility. And even if they have, so? Why should that have any impact on my course of action?

 

If you truly want to disassociate yourself, move to another country....

 

 

I have no desire to disassociate myself from my country. I'd rather try to fix it.

[17 Tubes]

Originally posted by la0tsu Honestly, I doubt that the enemy, whoever they might be, have given one tenth of a second's thought to my person level of responsibility. And even if they have, so? Why should that have any impact on my course of action? I have no desire to disassociate myself from my country. I'd rather try to fix it.

 

 

You missed the point ENTIRELY!

 

 

Terrorists don't hate governments. Oh sure, their was that plane that nosed the pentagon. But for the most part, they hate PEOPLE.

 

That would be.... you. You are just notaround at the right place and time.

 

If we sit back...or "chat"...you're time may come after all. You or someone you love (if any).

 

 

And after all....

 

 

a big fat {censored} you. Because I asked you a simple direct question, and you're a smug bitch enough to say "do some reading".

 

 

You typed enough in that answer to answer the godamn question, but you chose to be a smug asshole about it.

 

 

I'd want to blow up a bunch of people to if i knew everyone were like you.

 

 

But hey...you know it all and have the answers.

 

 

DOn't bother rsponding, unless you want to continue your smug asshole parade.

[17 Tubes]

Originally posted by draelyc Just got to pop in to point out where this "logic" leads, bro: if the citizens are guilty for what their government does, then the terrorists were right to kill 3000 American citizens on 9/11. Personally, *I* don't think the terrorists were right to do that.

I didn't say it was "right". I never said *I* think citizens are guilty for their governemnts.





You leap to conclusions. Judge jury and executioner.


I don't think everything leads down the path of your particular "logic".




I know there's a lot I don't know, but maybe you could enlighten me.



Why do the terrorists kill citizens? As a threat to the governemnt?


That threat doesn't work....except Israel, who will call you out on your threats.


No...they keep blowing up PEOPLE. Citizens. Either in punishment for supporting the reigning regime, or as an incentive to oust the regime and install who the terrorists want, like Kerry for example.

Not saying it's tryu, just a theory.

[17 Tubes]

Originally posted by Lgehrig4 Feel however you want. In the eyes of the enemy you are responsible and thats all the matters. It doesn't matter who you voted for, you're American. If you truly want to disassociate yourself, move to another country............. .....I heard that Yusef Islam (Cat Stevens) is giving discounted guitar lessons to all who convert.

Indeed.


Peopel can't seem to look at the problem from others perspective.

SOME people feel that EVRYONE uses the same..."logic" that they employ.


As if logic is always a standard, a rule, an equation. Fixed.


Not so. MAybe in the classroom, but not in the real world.

[la0tsu]

Originally posted by 17 Tubes You missed the point ENTIRELY! Terrorists don't hate governments. Oh sure, their was that plane that nosed the pentagon. But for the most part, they hate PEOPLE. That would be.... you. You are just notaround at the right place and time. If we sit back...or "chat"...you're time may come after all. You or someone you love (if any). And after all.... a big fat {censored} you. Because I asked you a simple direct question, and you're a smug bitch enough to say "do some reading". You typed enough in that answer to answer the godamn question, but you chose to be a smug asshole about it. I'd want to blow up a bunch of people to if i knew everyone were like you. But hey...you know it all and have the answers. DOn't bother rsponding, unless you want to continue your smug asshole parade.

 

 

Hey, look. I have been coversing back and forth here with several people who disagree with me, and civilly, I might add. Then you come in and act like it's my job to reiterate everything I've already said? I don't think so. Just because you're too lazy to read what I wrote doesn't mean that I didn't write it. If you disagree with something I wrote, by all means call me out on it. But there's no need to call me a "smug bitch" because I wanted to keep the conversation moving forward. You say that I typed enough in my response to answer your question. Did you ever consider that if I took the time to go over what I said again for you, I wouldn't have had time to address the new stuff that you brought up? No, I'm just a "smug bitch".

 

So, a big fat whatever. If you want to throw a tantrum and make yourself look foolish, more power to you. I'll just put you on IP and stick with civil conversation with those who are interested in an exchange of ideas. Even if that makes me a "smug bitch".

[DirtyBird]

Originally posted by Lgehrig4 What do you mean by the manipulation of civil liberties? I keep reading comments like this and I'm not quite sure what liberties have been comprimised.

 

 

For the record I'm referring to The Patriot Act, among other things. The most recent that I'm aware of is the NSA's warrantless wiretapping practices.

[Tonemeister87]

Make love not war.

[guitar shmoe]

Originally posted by la0tsu I doubt that it would be the solution in and of itself, but I think if you're prepared to use the stick, you need to be prepared to use the carot, and if you want to deall in good faith, you should be willing to demonstrate good faith.

 

 

I never thought far a second it would work....try it? sure! but, benevolence has already been tried and came back with a slit throat and a burned American flag wrapped around it's torso.....there is no negotiating with these people...

[Lgehrig4]

Originally posted by DirtyBird For the record I'm referring to The Patriot Act, among other things. The most recent that I'm aware of is the NSA's warrantless wiretapping practices.

 

 

Ok, this affects me because a lot of this acts attention is placed on the banking & brokerage business.

 

What is wrong with taking precautions to prevent further attacks? We live in a day and age that could not have been imagined by the men who drafted the constitution. Adjustments have to be made for good reason.

 

I watched the planes hit the towers and then watched them crumble. I was stuck roaming the streets with colleagues who were freaking out because they had friends/family in the building who they couldn't contact. I take the subway every day and the thought never completely leaves my mind that someone next to me can be carrying a bomb and if I see a Muslim over dressed in 90 degree heat and praying my eyes don't leave him/her until one of us gets off.

 

I say let the gov't implement anything that helps keep us safe.

[la0tsu]

Originally posted by Lgehrig4 Ok, this affects me because a lot of this acts attention is placed on the banking & brokerage business. What is wrong with taking precautions to prevent further attacks? We live in a day and age that could not have been imagined by the men who drafted the constitution. Adjustments have to be made for good reason. I watched the planes hit the towers and then watched them crumble. I was stuck roaming the streets with colleagues who were freaking out because they had friends/family in the building who they couldn't contact. I take the subway every day and the thought never completely leaves my mind that someone next to me can be carrying a bomb and if I see a Muslim over dressed in 90 degree heat and praying my eyes don't leave him/her until one of us gets off. I say let the gov't implement anything that helps keep us safe.

 

 

The main problem, IMHO, is the lack of oversight. There are plenty of tools in the belt of those charged to protect us. I have no problem with adding more, as long as there is some sort of accountability. I fear that granting broad powers to the executive without good checks and balances would lead to the use of those powers to "take care" of political opponents.

 

I've been reading The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer (a CBS reporter who was in Austria and Germany during the war), and that is exactly the situation that led to the rise of Hitler. I'm not saying Bush is HItler, mind you. I have major disagreements with his policies and ability, but Hitler was evil beyond almost anything we've seen.

 

No, my concern is for the future of this country. I want to make sure that the people remain solidly in control, and giving the president unchecked powers is the road to dictatorship.

 

Does that make any sense?

[la0tsu]

Originally posted by guitar shmoe I never thought far a second it would work....try it? sure! but, benevolence has already been tried and came back with a slit throat and a burned American flag wrapped around it's torso.....there is no negotiating with these people...

 

 

First, Israel has never done anything that benevolent for the Palestinians. The closest they came was leaving Gaza, while the same time continuing expansion into the West Bank. Not that the rest of the Arab world has been any better to the Palestinians ....

 

Second, if this is what you believe, it seems the only outcome is the complete extermination of "these people". And seeing as we don't have a way to readily identify who is a terrorist and who isn't, it would seem to logically mean that we need to eliminate all Palestinians (9 million, more than all the jews killed in the holocaust), or all Arabs (250 million people, or somewhat less than the population of the US) or perhaps even all Muslims (more than 1 Billion people world wide).

 

Now, I don't mean to say that this is what you have in mind. You have shown that you aren't that kind of person. So, I would ask, what is your solution? What should we try that hasn't been tried and failed? And how do we encourage moderates within the Arab world? (I know that may have come across as dickish due to the limitations of text, but I am sincerely asking).

[17 Tubes]

Originally posted by la0tsu Hey, look. I have been coversing back and forth here with several people who disagree with me, and civilly, I might add. Then you come in and act like it's my job to reiterate everything I've already said? I don't think so. Just because you're too lazy to read what I wrote doesn't mean that I didn't write it. If you disagree with something I wrote, by all means call me out on it. But there's no need to call me a "smug bitch" because I wanted to keep the conversation moving forward. You say that I typed enough in my response to answer your question. Did you ever consider that if I took the time to go over what I said again for you, I wouldn't have had time to address the new stuff that you brought up? No, I'm just a "smug bitch". So, a big fat whatever. If you want to throw a tantrum and make yourself look foolish, more power to you. I'll just put you on IP and stick with civil conversation with those who are interested in an exchange of ideas. Even if that makes me a "smug bitch".

 

 

 

YEs. I looked foolish. YEs. I had a tantrum.

 

 

But I came in read what I could, and asked a simple question. You responded with as much effort and time as it would have taken to answer the question. So...IM foolish and tratramatic opinion, you were smug dick.

 

Hey think whatever you like. We can both play the game just fine.

 

 

Were/are you here under another moniker? I'm onlyu asking becuase you sound/look familiar. Eh...prolly a coincidence. But I'm nearly 100% on these hunches.

[17 Tubes]

Originally posted by la0tsu You ignore the fact that (assuming there were weapons or a weapons program at this point, something that has not been demonstrated on any level), arranging traffic jams and moving labratories took resources away from any such activity, and prevented any further production or research. It takes two to tango. And while you mention complaints of the inspectors, you negect to mention that the inspectors also said that they felt Hussein was contained.

 

 

 

Correct me if I don;t follow you.

 

So...getting a bunch of Iraqi yahoos to drive up to the UN motorcade and stop is taking away from the "activity and production or research"?

 

 

Okay there MR. cool slick calm know it all. That's pretty deep thinking.

 

But maybe I misunderstood you after all.

 

And forgive me if I don't entirely trust the UN. A fountain of integrity, focus, and accomplsihments.

 

 

In bed with France and Germany the whole time? Yes.

 

 

No...you think *I'M* the moron? That's rich. You haven't answered any issues with anything other than your opinion, specualtion and guesswork.