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attn: I apologize for this (politics inside)


FWAxeIbanez

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Originally posted by FWAxeIbanez



Reread what I've said on this page, and I'm not being an ass about it this time... I don't really side with any republicans these days because they are all slimy and too busy playing word games... at the same time I still feel like liberals "have the market cornered" on it


Where I stand on Bush is complicated, to say the least, but I'm hitting the sack now I think, I'll bump this tomorrow with some clarification on that, but basically I feel like he is a mediocre president, nothing more nothing less... lackluster in both positive and negative light

 

 

I hadn't read the whole thread by the time I posted that. I agree that both sides are a mess, our current system of either/or is inherently {censored}ed.

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Originally posted by indespise



Our country is based on freedom and liberty. To give up what our nation was founded on because you're scared or pissed is not loving your country.

Who was it that said that the most patriotic thing you can do is watch your elected leaders closely with suspicion? I think they hit the nail on the head. Blind patriotism, closing your eyes and doing whatever the politicians want while waving your flag (or yellow ribbon) is a spit in the face of what we were founded on.

 

 

Not agreeing or disagreeing with you, just saying that patriotism means to support your country's interests. If your not, your not being pariotic according to the definition.

 

Who's giving up what our nation was founded on? Where does this fit in with our current situation? You must have specific things in mind when writing this so please explain.

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Originally posted by la0tsu



Okay, nevermind. I misinterpreted what you were saying. Sorry.


Honestly, I don't like it when people hold positions I agree with, but don't know how to support them.


Iraq, for example. I thought it was wrong from the start, but it certainly wasn't done for religious reasons or to secure oil. I think it was a combination of honorable but misguided beliefs, such as the notion that we could foster democracy throughout the region by overthrowing Hussein, to give another display of strength, and to win elections. Simplifying it with statements like "blood for oil", or "they started it on 9/11" is a shame on our house.


My opposition to the war was for four reasons: I believed the inspectors were doing the job, I thought the risk of destabilization way too great, I didn't think the job was done in Afghanistan (a war I supported), and I feared it would weaken our ability to respond to other crises around the world (I was thinking militarily at the time, but Katrina showed that it went beyond that).


I think my positions have all been confirmed, but because there are jerkwads out there who spew crap like "it's a holy war" or "it's all about oil", my valid points get swept to the side.

 

 

+1

 

One of the more rare, sensible things I've read someone post about the war in a while.

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Originally posted by FWAxeIbanez



I will laugh and find this funny without making myself a hypocrite by agreeing in part... Libs that would wear a shirt like that in public would
have
to hate piss tests.


Not that there is anything particularly wrong with "herbal experimentation" as long as its only yourself you're hurting... You go smoke and drive, and as far as I'm concerned you can eat a dick and blow your brains out... if you sit at home and use it in comparable manner to say, alcohol, then who cares what you do... Thats kind of the core of my Conservatism actually, the less the government has to do with my life and business, the better... but this is a tangent for another day

 

 

You, my friend, sound like a libertarian and a sensible person. I think a lot of younger people these days want to associate themselves with and vote for republicans, because of their {censored}ed up views of what a republican is. "republicans are successful people" "republicans are powerful people" "republicans don't give a {censored} what everyone else ("crybaby liberals/democrats") thinks about them". Republicans have become the new "cool", "tough" thing to be. This all stems from ignorance of the way our government works. Hell, I'd say probably 80+% of our country's population thinks that the president "makes laws".

 

In addendum, the media has totally {censored}ed up everyone's perspective on war. Wars only began to be protested when media coverage of them began. People need to get a grip on reality; war is a horrible, ugly, and sometimes necessary thing. Do people honestly think that innocent people, including women and children did not die horrible deaths by our soldiers' hands in wars prior to Viet Nam? I'm not pro-war or anti-war. Just make sure we need to be involved and don't {censored} around and play {censored}ing patty-cake.

 

I don't know if I can agree with you, however, about time and lives spent on Iraq when it would be easier just to raze the cities and take over the country to get the oil. Bush is just about "stupit" enough to believe that he can pull the wool over everyone's eyes by sacrificing our economy and our soldiers' lives to show his "good intentions". I'm not saying this is ,for a fact, what is going on, but I don't trust that it is not. I'm very distrustful of our government. I think they're mostly out for themselves, republicans and democrats.

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Originally posted by FWAxeIbanez



Well of course, we weren't looking for trouble, but Hussein's lack of cooperation made sure we found it. It was the harboring of terrorists that brought our eyes to iraq. I don't think anybody needs to realize this, because I think everyone would agree with you




Agree'd, I feel like Bush let us down by worrying too much about iraqi's, and thats a {censored}ty thing to say, I know it, but as far as I'm concerned its Americans I'm worried about... I'm not saying we should have nuked them, no way no how, and all the efforts to keep lives lost to a minimum should be present regardless of where they were born, but I really feel like we are pillowfighting right now... I mean, there 's so much red tape regarding when our soldiers are able to shoot. Think of unmarked and supposed "civilian" vehicles speeding past a waypoint straight toward you, 1 or more warning shots (assuming there was proper signage) and I don't care, open fire with my blessing...


in recap: All possible effort to minimize life lost is expected, but if its us or them, I have to say I'd rather see an American able to come home... its a lesser of two evils type of statement, if someone has to die, I hope its not an American. I'm not saying kill 'em all by any means


Where did all this pillowfighting get us anyway? Haditha and Abu Ghraib both got us accused of everything we were trying to avoid in the first place, so now we have egg on our face and too many dead americans... thats Bush's biggest failure in my book

 

 

i think we should've come into iraq with a much more massive attack, preferrably when we were able to pull some troops with afghanistan...we should've had every major border crossing patrolled, air force ready to strike anywhere at will, and twice the boots on the ground we had

 

things never would've escalated like they did, and even tho the early death toll would've been high, in the end we could've saved a lot of lives by taking on full control quickly, compared to how things are going now

 

but it's easy to look back and say that now, knowing things we didn't know then...in all honestly i don't think we would've gone in there at all if we had any idea it would turn out like this

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Originally posted by FWAxeIbanez

I think of it kind of like cops going to a known drug dealers house to get information on a wanted man... conversations might go something like:


"I know you've got tons of (insert some heavy drug here) in there, so how about you tell us where (insert name here) is and we won't bust down this door?"


They don't cooperate so the cops bust on in and take every last one of them to jail, meanwhile they find pounds and pounds and pounds of pot, but only remnants of the crazy drugs they were originally looking for... still illegal and worthy of the laws attention tho.

 

 

This is a false analogy. Hussein never had any contact with Bin Laden, nor did Bin Laden have ANY love for Hussein. Hussein was a secular leader, which meant that he was as much the enemy as the US from Bin Laden's perspective. So, if we were knocking on his door looking for Bin Laden, it would be like knocking on a weed dealer's door looking for information on Enron. No connection!

 

Once again, if we really were interested in taking out those with connections to Bin Laden and 9/11, we would have gone after Saudi Arabia.

 

to say Iraq had
nothing
to do with 9/11 is folly. I felt like we leaned on them to find Bin Laden, and then uncovered a {censored} storm that forced us into action

 

 

How is it folly? Give me something that shows a connection. Regardless of what you felt like, Hussein knew nothing of Bin Laden's whereabouts, and I don't remember anyone in even the Bush administration saying that we thought he did, or that we were going to war because he had such knowledge which he wouldn't share.

 

I understand why some might not feel like thats justified, but to say its for oil or religous reasons is something I definitely disagree with

 

 

Well, I've already stated that we're in agreement on this. But it sounds like you're basing your opinions on similar mis- or dis-information from the other side.

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Originally posted by la0tsu

Hussein never had any contact with Bin Laden, nor did Bin Laden have ANY love for Hussein.

 

 

And you know this for sure because you used to work for the FBI, CIA or had direct contact with Bin Laden?

 

Lets face it, none of us really knows whats going on behind the scenes. We can only draw our conclusions from the tid bits of information we receive from the news agencies.

 

I'm not 100% trusting of the gov't, but I do know that they know more than I and I trust that there was good reason to invade Iraq. I also believe that our people in power in the US generally care about people. When you talk about Hussein your talking about a deranged sociopath who killed and tortured for entertainment. Why do we care about him in the least. I can't see how what we did cannot be good for the Iraqis in the long run.

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Originally posted by Lgehrig4



And you know this for sure because you used to work for the FBI, CIA or had direct contact with Bin Laden?

 

 

No, I know this because Bin Laden volunteered to come to Saudi Arabia's defense against Iraq in 1991, and because if there were any sort of connection, it would have been all over the news. The best the administration could come up with was that an al-qaeda member was in an Iraqi hospital. And I bet there have been al-qaeda members in US hospitals, so that means nothing.

 

Also, as I stated, Hussein was a secularist. Bin Laden HATES secular arab governments. You don't need to work for the FBI, CIA, or have direct contact with Bin Laden to know this. You just need an internet connection and a willingness to read what's out there.

 

Lets face it, none of us really knows whats going on behind the scenes. We can only draw our conclusions from the tid bits of information we receive from the news agencies.

 

 

Just because you don't appear to have the dedication to keep up with what's going on doesn't mean that we're only getting "tid-bits".

 

I'm not 100% trusting of the gov't, but I do know that they know more than I and I trust that there was good reason to invade Iraq.

 

 

You are WAAAY too trusting of the government. We should not go to war if the government can't tell us why. That's not how our nation was founded, and it's not becoming of an open society.

 

I also believe that our people in power in the US generally care about people.

 

 

I agree with this 100%. This is why you shouldn't trust them to go to war without a good explanation.

 

When you talk about Hussein your talking about a deranged sociopath who killed and tortured for entertainment.

 

 

That's not entirely correct. Hussein cared about power, and that is why he killed people (another reason why you shouldn't just trust any government). His sons really enjoyed carrying the {censored} out, to the point of doing it for pleasure, but Hussein's motivation was to maintain power.

 

Why do we care about him in the least. I can't see how what we did cannot be good for the Iraqis in the long run.

 

 

I certainly don't care about Hussein, but at least he maintained order. Perhaps in the long run things will work out better for the Iraqis without him, but I think it's far more likely that we are looking at a decade or two of religious fighting taking out innocent people followed by another torturous dictator.

 

If you go back and read why I always opposed this war, you'll see that it basically comes down to what is in the interest of our nation. It is not in our interest to spend hundreds of billions of dollars and thousands of American lives (to say nothing of the tens of thousands of Iraqi lives) to destabilize the region and degrade our ability to respond to national and international crises.

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Originally posted by Lgehrig4



I can't see how what we did cannot be good for the Iraqis in the long run.

 

 

You'd better be ready for a long long run, dude. The only way things are going to get better now is if we kill everybody in the mideast. Thanks to boy George things are boiling over, and nobody seems to know how to turn off the stove.

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Originally posted by la0tsu

Also, as I stated, Hussein was a secularist. Bin Laden HATES secular arab governments. You don't need to work for the FBI, CIA, or have direct contact with Bin Laden to know this. You just need an internet connection and a willingness to read what's out there.

 

 

I guess I wasn't clear enough. If you can read something, then it wasn't classified. If you don't have access to classified info, if you are not in the private meetings between leaders then you really don't know exactly what is going on. You can make an educated guess, but that is all it is.

 

Same reason why you can work for a corporation and then all of a sudden find out that it's been sold. The leaders allow you to know only what they feel you need to know.

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Originally posted by savoldi



You'd better be ready for a long long run, dude. The only way things are going to get better now is if we kill everybody in the mideast. Thanks to boy George things are boiling over, and nobody seems to know how to turn off the stove.

 

 

Things usually get worse before they get better. Take care of the leak while it's still manageable or evenually you will have a flood. All this turmoil is causing other countries to show us their cards.....bring it on.

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Originally posted by savoldi



You'd better be ready for a long long run, dude. The only way things are going to get better now is if we kill everybody in the mideast. Thanks to boy George things are boiling over, and nobody seems to know how to turn off the stove.

 

 

What did "boy George" do to perpetuate THIS particular problem?(current problems) Ill agree hes been a lil slow to get involved but its not his fault, sorry not this time..

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im a registered libertarian and thats about as conservative as it gets but do you really think we would be in iraq in any way, shape, or form that we are right now if it wasn't for 9/11?

i also firmly believe that statement made earlier about giving a {censored} about iraqi lives is pretty horrible. the worse we treat those people the worse they will hate us and the more terrorists we create. you think they will just roll over and not care if we just start showing genocidal tendencies? there was a great point made on the daily show the other night- if bush is such a preserver of life and a human rights activist(and yes i am against most abortions) then why is he so non-chalant about blowing away 30,000 iraqi civilians?

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Originally posted by The Realm








You know America could do it's part just by relocating Isreal to Utah and BAM! Middle East conflict over forever!


Nobody has to worry about election cheating theocracies or silly T-shirts anymore.
:wave:



It wouldn't be over, it would just begin to really start to happen. Then, once when the AI have reduced the many ideological factions of their populations down to one, they'll begin to wage war beyond their AI empire claiming a right to all the world by divine decree to make all people bow down to the AI.

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Originally posted by feintguitarist



He's talking about drawing a line in the sand, Dude. Across this line, you DO NOT... Also, Dude, chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature. Asian-American, please.

 

 

You are either American or you are not.

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Originally posted by Lgehrig4



Things usually get worse before they get better. Take care of the leak while it's still manageable or evenually you will have a flood. All this turmoil is causing other countries to show us their cards.....bring it on.



If it's just a leak...you probably won't have a flood.


What you will have is rot and mold. The Silent Killer. ;)

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Originally posted by DADGADammit

im a registered libertarian and thats about as conservative as it gets but do you really think we would be in iraq in any way, shape, or form that we are right now if it wasn't for 9/11?

 

 

I find it a disgusting manipulation of patriotic sentiments. The government is taking advantage of the "patriotic" to extents that just sicken me.

 

I'm also libertarian. I'd rather "waste" a vote on Badnarik that waste one on someone I dont agree with.

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Originally posted by DirtyBird



I find it a disgusting manipulation of patriotic sentiments. The government is taking advantage of the "patriotic" to extents that just sicken me.


I'm also libertarian. I'd rather "waste" a vote on Badnarik that waste one on someone I dont agree with.

 

 

 

This will be debated forever and ever..

 

Saddam HAD WMD's, no ifs/ends/butts -- he used em on his own people, previous presidents said he had em, other countries said he had em and the U.N. said he had em..

 

Im NOT giving anyone a "free pass" for the {censored} in Iraq, (im not) BUTTTTTT lets not pretend it was only George Bush who thought/said he had WMD's, when many many other people, presidents, countries, organizations said the same thing!

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Originally posted by ***1776***




This will be debated forever and ever..


Saddam HAD WMD's, no ifs/ends/butts -- he used em on his own people, previous presidents said he had em, other countries said he had em and the U.N. said he had em..


Im NOT giving anyone a "free pass" for the {censored} in Iraq, (im not) BUTTTTTT lets not pretend it was only George Bush who thought/said he had WMD's, when many many other people, presidents, countries, organizations said the same thing!

 

 

Thanks...great post.

 

 

The personal agenda of some people gets in the way of seeking truth, justice and WRG.

 

They blind themsleves to reality...by taking extremist views.

 

 

I'm not going to pretend for one mintute the GWB is brillinat....but he's hardly the only blame for our modern day ills.

 

 

Most of that you'll have to look in the mirror.

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Originally posted by DirtyBird



I find it a disgusting manipulation of patriotic sentiments. The government is taking advantage of the "patriotic" to extents that just sicken me.


I'm also libertarian. I'd rather "waste" a vote on Badnarik that waste one on someone I dont agree with.

 

 

 

Let's look at what a "patriot" really is.

 

Todays modern patriot finds it fashionable and cool to protest. Anything. Doesn't matter what it is, long as their is a protest going on.

 

 

The true patriot will do what is best for himself and his fellow countrymen. Sometimes that is taking up arms and blowing {censored} up.

 

A true patriot will take the risks in his own hands, rather than simply bitching about it on the internet.

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Originally posted by ***1776***




This will be debated forever and ever..


Saddam HAD WMD's, no ifs/ends/butts -- he used em on his own people, previous presidents said he had em, other countries said he had em and the U.N. said he had em..


Im NOT giving anyone a "free pass" for the {censored} in Iraq, (im not) BUTTTTTT lets not pretend it was only George Bush who thought/said he had WMD's, when many many other people, presidents, countries, organizations said the same thing!

 

 

The WMDs he used in the Iran/Iraq war could not have lasted until the present day. They are chemically unstable and break down within a few years. That is a fact. So, yes, he had them at one point. BUT, between the fact that they don't have an indefinite shelf life and the fact that we destroyed their production capabilities in the first Iraq war (which I supported, BTW), the inspectors were sufficient to contain the situation, and a hell of a lot cheaper.

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