attn: I apologize for this (politics inside)

[Lgehrig4]

Originally posted by indespise You can't use terrorism to justify everything our nation has done. Bending over because you're scared is letting terrorism work, the only difference here is that our own government are the ones who seized the power granted by the terror. Our government would have had a much more difficult time getting away with some of the {censored} they've pulled if people who were scared/sad/pissed about 9/11 hadn't thrown so much blind support at them. I find it very ironic that these are the same people who pride themselves as "patriots", they don't know what being a patriot is.

 

 

Pa.tri.ot

Pronunciation: 'pA-trE-&t, -"

[dughaze]

Originally posted by FWAxeIbanez a disclaimer if you will: I have no problem with liberals, I'm not one to disagree and take it personally... as far as I'm concerned, liberals and conservatives are both after the same thing, just with different methods of getting there. But every now and then I hear something or see something and I can't understand what goes through thier heads... Obviously this person isn't speaking for all liberals, so I'm not taking it that way, but the fact that there is a market for a T-shirt like this, and the fact that people are actually buying enough of them for one to show up in my small town scares me, so here it is _____________________________ So I work at a grocery store, and a guy walks in wearing a shirt that says: The Fundamentalists Voted for a Holy War and All I Got Was This Lousy Draft Notice I don't even know what to say... how would someone come to the conclusion that this statement has any pertinence to the war in Iraq? To be honest, the shirt might have nothing to do with Iraq and might be regarding a war I'm not aware of, if so, please clue me in... But I don't remember anyone voting for a war, and I definitely don't remember any draft, all I remember are some left wing nuts starting up a draft scare during election time and giving hard working liberal americans a bad name... And to call the war in Iraq a holy war makes my head hurt... the only ones who brought religion into this were the ones in the planes... We are in Iraq because Hussein was toying with us during weapons inspections and wasn't cooperating in finding Bin Laden... These left wing nuts are lucky that most Americans have a bad memory, because these days everyone thinks we are fighting because "they" slammed the planes into the twin towers, and they have ceased to remember who "they" is exactly. I remember well all the chances we've given Hussein since the last war, and I remember that a lot happened between 9/11 and our actual attack... Sadly, most don't, and the crazies prey on that Seriously tho, lets hear from some liberals, what does this shirt have to do with anything? How is this anything other than willful verbal manipulation? I know (most) conservatives will agree with me, so lets hear from someone that this shirt is supposed to speak for... really, this thread is not about justifying the war, or my opinions about the war, its about the shirt and the growing trend lately of throwing out these highly loaded phrases that don't actually ever hold water ... this is what scares me the most, just because a statement draws a very real emotion out of you doesn't mean its truthful or honest (and yes there is a difference between the two)

 

 

His t-shirt would have been more accurate if it said

 

I hate piss tests.

 

...libs always hate piss tests.

[cobrahead1030]

Originally posted by indespise You can't use terrorism to justify everything our nation has done. Bending over because you're scared is letting terrorism work, the only difference here is that our own government are the ones who seized the power granted by the terror. Our government would have had a much more difficult time getting away with some of the {censored} they've pulled if people who were scared/sad/pissed about 9/11 hadn't thrown so much blind support at them. I find it very ironic that these are the same people who pride themselves as "patriots", they don't know what being a patriot is.

 

 

i can't really disagree with some of what you said...but i don't think the current admin. would've saw the need to do a lot of what they did had it not been for 9/11, and that's something more people need to realize

 

the consequences of some of their decisions have been disastrous, no doubt about that...but both sides were initially in support of a lot of it

[FWAxeIbanez]

Originally posted by dughaze His t-shirt would have been more accurate if it said I hate piss tests. ...libs always hate piss tests.

 

 

I will laugh and find this funny without making myself a hypocrite by agreeing in part... Libs that would wear a shirt like that in public would have to hate piss tests.

 

Not that there is anything particularly wrong with "herbal experimentation" as long as its only yourself you're hurting... You go smoke and drive, and as far as I'm concerned you can eat a dick and blow your brains out... if you sit at home and use it in comparable manner to say, alcohol, then who cares what you do... Thats kind of the core of my Conservatism actually, the less the government has to do with my life and business, the better... but this is a tangent for another day

[AtillaTheHungry]

Originally posted by FWAxeIbanez It helps to read sir, but, if you really are honestly lost or need something to get you interested in the short novel I typed up, I'm commenting on a T-Shirt I saw at the grocery store I work at, and I guess a trend that the shirt represents

 

 

There you go man. You hit the nail on the head. It's a trend. This political crap is like a football game. I just wish they'd actually play football. It'd work so much better and make so much more sense.

[Tonemeister87]

Give peace a chance.

[la0tsu]

Originally posted by FWAxeIbanez who said that? I sure didn't... I'm pretty sure I picked on her pretty hard... like I said, there is money to be made in demagoguery these days honestly, when ever I think of whackos in the right, I think of Coulter first... probably Sean Hannity next

 

 

Okay, nevermind. I misinterpreted what you were saying. Sorry.

 

Honestly, I don't like it when people hold positions I agree with, but don't know how to support them.

 

Iraq, for example. I thought it was wrong from the start, but it certainly wasn't done for religious reasons or to secure oil. I think it was a combination of honorable but misguided beliefs, such as the notion that we could foster democracy throughout the region by overthrowing Hussein, to give another display of strength, and to win elections. Simplifying it with statements like "blood for oil", or "they started it on 9/11" is a shame on our house.

 

My opposition to the war was for four reasons: I believed the inspectors were doing the job, I thought the risk of destabilization way too great, I didn't think the job was done in Afghanistan (a war I supported), and I feared it would weaken our ability to respond to other crises around the world (I was thinking militarily at the time, but Katrina showed that it went beyond that).

 

I think my positions have all been confirmed, but because there are jerkwads out there who spew crap like "it's a holy war" or "it's all about oil", my valid points get swept to the side.

[cobrahead1030]

Originally posted by OneArmedScissors There you go man. You hit the nail on the head. It's a trend. This political crap is like a football game. I just wish they'd actually play football. It'd work so much better and make so much more sense.

i think boxing matches would be more organized...very entertaining, and probably just as effective as our current democratic system

[la0tsu]

Originally posted by dughaze His t-shirt would have been more accurate if it said I hate piss tests. ...libs always hate piss tests.

 

 

What's not to hate? Piss tests only show what you've done in the last month, and they don't show alcohol or cocaine. If you happen to like lemon poppyseed muffins, you'll test positive for heroin. Seriously, someone who says, "I'm gonna need some piss from you," is WAAAAY more {censored}ed up than someone who likes the occasional joint.

[la0tsu]

Oops.

[FWAxeIbanez]

Originally posted by cobrahead1030 i can't really disagree with some of what you said...but i don't think the current admin. would've saw the need to do a lot of what they did had it not been for 9/11, and that's something more people need to realize

 

 

Well of course, we weren't looking for trouble, but Hussein's lack of cooperation made sure we found it. It was the harboring of terrorists that brought our eyes to iraq. I don't think anybody needs to realize this, because I think everyone would agree with you

 

 

Originally posted by cobrahead1030 the consequences of some of their decisions have been disastrous, no doubt about that...but both sides were initially in support of a lot of it

 

 

Agree'd, I feel like Bush let us down by worrying too much about iraqi's, and thats a {censored}ty thing to say, I know it, but as far as I'm concerned its Americans I'm worried about... I'm not saying we should have nuked them, no way no how, and all the efforts to keep lives lost to a minimum should be present regardless of where they were born, but I really feel like we are pillowfighting right now... I mean, there 's so much red tape regarding when our soldiers are able to shoot. Think of unmarked and supposed "civilian" vehicles speeding past a waypoint straight toward you, 1 or more warning shots (assuming there was proper signage) and I don't care, open fire with my blessing...

 

in recap: All possible effort to minimize life lost is expected, but if its us or them, I have to say I'd rather see an American able to come home... its a lesser of two evils type of statement, if someone has to die, I hope its not an American. I'm not saying kill 'em all by any means

 

Where did all this pillowfighting get us anyway? Haditha and Abu Ghraib both got us accused of everything we were trying to avoid in the first place, so now we have egg on our face and too many dead americans... thats Bush's biggest failure in my book

[la0tsu]

Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11. And if harboring terrorists had anything to do with it, we would have invaded Saudi Arabia, not Iraq.

[rushtallica]

Originally posted by la0tsu Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11. And if harboring terrorists had anything to do with it, we would have invaded Saudi Arabia, not Iraq.

And combined with the fact that there have not been found any legitimate MWOD, therein lies the rub and why I'm no longer a Bush or Republican party supporter, though I'm no liberal, either. Both parties are totally f*%#ed in my opinion. From this point, I'm just trying to be careful to vote for the one that seemingly is less likely to f*%k things up as bad as the other would.

[FWAxeIbanez]

Originally posted by la0tsu Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11. And if harboring terrorists had anything to do with it, we would have invaded Saudi Arabia, not Iraq.

 

 

I think of it kind of like cops going to a known drug dealers house to get information on a wanted man... conversations might go something like:

 

"I know you've got tons of (insert some heavy drug here) in there, so how about you tell us where (insert name here) is and we won't bust down this door?"

 

They don't cooperate so the cops bust on in and take every last one of them to jail, meanwhile they find pounds and pounds and pounds of pot, but only remnants of the crazy drugs they were originally looking for... still illegal and worthy of the laws attention tho.

 

to say Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 is folly. I felt like we leaned on them to find Bin Laden, and then uncovered a {censored} storm that forced us into action

 

I understand why some might not feel like thats justified, but to say its for oil or religous reasons is something I definitely disagree with

[FWAxeIbanez]

Originally posted by rushtallica And combined with the fact that there have not been found any legitimate MWOD, therein lies the rub and why I'm no longer a Bush or Republican party supporter, though I'm no liberal, either. Both parties are totally f*%#ed in my opinion. From this point, I'm just trying to be careful to vote for the one that seemingly is less likely to f*%k things up as bad as the other would.

there were no weapons of mass destruction, but there were plenty of weapons that were in direct violation of our agreement with Iraq.

other than that, I agree with you... I think republicans and democrats have been playing way too many games, and I now no longer call myself a republican... but the fact really does remain that all of that has to do with bad republicans and democrats as opposed to flaws in the central theories and values...

I'm definitely conservative, I just don't want to be associated with a lot of the trash calling themselves republican these days

[DirtyBird]

Originally posted by FWAxeIbanez seriously, think about it guys. If we had leveled the entire country just about, we would have our oil prices where we wanted them a lot quicker and with a lot less casualties (on our part at least) than with all this waiting around bulll{censored}

 

 

You dont get it.

 

Do you honestly think we could get away with that without Bush being put on trial for war crimes, or worse yet, the rest of the free world allying against us and invading.

 

We at least made it LOOK like we cared and were justified only for the sake of simply tarnishing our reputation in teh international arena as opposed to {censored}ting on it and the rest of hte world uniting against us.

 

Dont think it wouldn't happen... it would. International uproar is what kept us from doing it the scary way... and the scary way is probably a lot more expensive too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for the shirt, I find it kind of amusing that a conservative is talking about liberals using loaded phrases. There's no difference between that and constantly talking about 9/11, constantly talking about the WTC, and constantly saying things like "well if you dont like it, git out!" and "that just ain amur'can!"

 

Disagree with the prez and you're "unamur'can".

 

People forget what true patriotism is, and true patriotism is loving your country and the beliefs it was founded on, and yet these so-called right-wing patriots were first in line to sign the patriot act which is undermining hte very liberties that makes this country great.

 

How free of a country can we be when teh government has a right to go to a library and ask what books you've been reading and go search your house without needing any proof of wrong-doing?

[indespise]

Originally posted by Lgehrig4 Pa.tri.ot Pronunciation: 'pA-trE-&t, -"

[indespise]

Originally posted by dughaze His t-shirt would have been more accurate if it said I hate piss tests. ...libs always hate piss tests.

 

 

Pretentious self-righteousness kicks ass, doesn't it?

[FWAxeIbanez]

Originally posted by DirtyBird Do you honestly think we could get away with that without Bush being put on trial for war crimes, or worse yet, the rest of the free world allying against us and invading.

 

 

yes.

 

Infact I KNOW we could've. Could we have flown over and nuked them completely without talking to them whatsoever, no... I was trying to illustrate two ways we could have ravaged thier oil fields had that been our original intent, one of them involved threatening them with a wall of nukes and various scary devices in a bullying fashion. Think about it like an offer they can't refuse.

 

My other illustration very well could have involved nukes, but the main factor would be complete annihlation... Had we not cared about the rebuilding process, we could have saved a lot of money...

 

please understand, none of these are options I'd advocate

 

 

Originally posted by DirtyBird As for the shirt, I find it kind of amusing that a conservative is talking about liberals using loaded phrases. There's no difference between that and constantly talking about 9/11, constantly talking about the WTC, and constantly saying things like "well if you dont like it, git out!" and "that just ain amur'can!" Disagree with the prez and you're "unamur'can".

 

 

I find it more amusing that you obviously didn't read the whole thread yet felt like commenting on this... Maybe you can pull that statement out on some dumb redneck, but go ahead, do some reading and then come back when you have a full understanding of my stance, thank you

[indespise]

Originally posted by cobrahead1030 i can't really disagree with some of what you said...but i don't think the current admin. would've saw the need to do a lot of what they did had it not been for 9/11, and that's something more people need to realize the consequences of some of their decisions have been disastrous, no doubt about that...but both sides were initially in support of a lot of it

 

 

Then how do you explain the Patriot Act, a very long and detailed document which flushes our constitutional rights, being ready to go as soon as 9/11 happened?

I don't see it as the government seeing the need to do something (if the precautions that were already in place had been enforced, 9/11 could've been prevented) in the wake of 9/11 as much as I see the government seizing a powerful window of opportunity.

To a degree, both sides are working towards the same goal, I don't think it's just the Republicans pulling this {censored} (although the current administration has definiely taken an unprecedented amount of steps at an alarming rate), "quiet acts" killing our rights have slowly been inplemented for a long time. We're like a frog being cooked so slowly that it doesn't realize it until it's too late.

Besides, even if someone was against the {censored} that passed in the direct wake of 9/11, they were branded as cowards, unpatriotic, terrorist sympathizers, America haters, etc. Even now, this mentality lingers among supporters of Bush and co.

A line in one of my songs comes to mind:

Terror, the all purpose enemy, the dog they use to heard the sheep.

[indespise]

Originally posted by FWAxeIbanez I will laugh and find this funny without making myself a hypocrite by agreeing in part... Libs that would wear a shirt like that in public would have to hate piss tests. Not that there is anything particularly wrong with "herbal experimentation" as long as its only yourself you're hurting... You go smoke and drive, and as far as I'm concerned you can eat a dick and blow your brains out... if you sit at home and use it in comparable manner to say, alcohol, then who cares what you do... Thats kind of the core of my Conservatism actually, the less the government has to do with my life and business, the better... but this is a tangent for another day

 

 

If that's your view of conservatism, then you're siding with the wrong people right now. These are Neo-cons, they call themselves conservative in the same way that the Chinese communists call themselves a republic. The bull{censored} they've pulled in the wake of 9/11 means quite the opposite of the government having less involvement with your life. There is much more at stake here than taxes and financial economics.

[jshaft37]

anyone who cant see the problems with the current administration isn't worth any effort in trying to debate.

[FWAxeIbanez]

Originally posted by jshaft37 anyone who cant see the problems with the current administration isn't worth any effort in trying to debate.

 

 

Awesome.

 

Bye.

[FWAxeIbanez]

Originally posted by indespise If that's your view of conservatism, then you're siding with the wrong people right now. These are Neo-cons, they call themselves conservative in the same way that the Chinese communists call themselves a republic. The bull{censored} they've pulled in the wake of 9/11 means quite the opposite of the government having less involvement with your life. There is much more at stake here than taxes and financial economics.

 

 

Reread what I've said on this page, and I'm not being an ass about it this time... I don't really side with any republicans these days because they are all slimy and too busy playing word games... at the same time I still feel like liberals "have the market cornered" on it

 

Where I stand on Bush is complicated, to say the least, but I'm hitting the sack now I think, I'll bump this tomorrow with some clarification on that, but basically I feel like he is a mediocre president, nothing more nothing less... lackluster in both positive and negative light

[DirtyBird]

Originally posted by FWAxeIbanez yes. Infact I KNOW we could've. Could we have flown over and nuked them completely without talking to them whatsoever, no... I was trying to illustrate two ways we could have ravaged thier oil fields had that been our original intent, one of them involved threatening them with a wall of nukes and various scary devices in a bullying fashion. Think about it like an offer they can't refuse. My other illustration very well could have involved nukes, but the main factor would be complete annihlation... Had we not cared about the rebuilding process, we could have saved a lot of money...

 

 

You misunderstand, these methods of doing things would definitely be much more frowned upon in the international community than the invasion is as it stands. It's petty theft on an international scale, no one would stand for it. Every country would ally with other countries and vow not to let hte big bad US hold them hostage for their oil. It just wouldn't fly.

 

 

I find it more amusing that you obviously didn't read the whole thread yet felt like commenting on this... Maybe you can pull that statement out on some dumb redneck, but go ahead, do some reading and then come back when you have a full understanding of my stance, thank you

 

 

Has nothing to do with your stance.