guitar shmoe

Originally posted by Loghead These words sound as if they were espoused by a Christian chauvinist. I'm not sure if it's still there, but at least there used to be this very small Black Baptist church on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, quite close to my father's place. They had the typical...whatchermacallit sign outside the door

Originally posted by potaetoes did somebody say the founding fathers agreed upon christianity definitively as a moral base? actual history shows that they specifically rejected it. Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination. -Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782 Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear. -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787 History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes. -Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813. Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814 In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814 And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors. -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823 Gosh you are tiring....do I really have to list all the quotes from Thomas Jefferson that are ABSOLUTELY supportive of a Christian led Union?? though he was an open Deist...(along with B Franklin) Here's some T Jefferson to put in your pipe: " The Bible is the cornerstone of liberty, our student's perusal of the Sacred Volume will make us better citizens" Jefferson approved a Congressional decision to ordain special lands "for the sole use of Christian Indians"....."to be entrusted to the Moravian Brethren for civilizing the Indians and promoting Christianity" and in 1796 "An act Regulating the Grants of Land Appropriated for Military Services and for the Society of the United Brethren for Propagating the Christian Gospel among the Heathen" 3 times Jefferson voted to extend this act... In foreign affairs Jefferson sought to represent America as a Christian nation. Before the Treaty of Peace and Amity at Tripoli was ratified on June 4, 1804, Jefferson PERSONALLY required a particular clause (article XI) to be removed from the articles language. This clause stated that the United States "is not, in any sense, founded on Christian religion". On and on and on it goes....I have hundreds of em!!! Let's PLAY! GAME ON!

Originally posted by indespise Regarding your initial statement, a line from tan Immolation song ( Storm of Terror) comes to mind: "Call yourself the victim, but it's you whio walks a vicious path" That sums up the topic of Christians claiming that there is a war (of Satan ) against their faith. Claiming to be persecuted makes moder Christians feel good about themselves. A world with a majority population of Christians isn't a world intolerant of them, but (some) Christains often whine that it is so because they can see their religion losing the chokehold on today's society (particularly in the US). Enter the facist neo-cons like Ann Coulter. There are much better sources for a code of liberty than the Bible. Study Taoism, Zen, Hindu and Buddhism if you want good examples. That said, there are some good foundations in the Bible. If the founding fathers wanted morals to be mandated entirely by Christianity, freedom of religion, nor seperation of church and state wouldn't have been in our framework. Your statement about "young know it alls"is spoken from the perspective that everyone belives your God got use here in the first place. Not everyone will choose the same fantasy you did, whether or not you want to look at it as fantasy. Accept it, and live your life, love thy neighbor as thyself, worship your God as you choose. Why didn't our founding Fathers choose any of the MANY available eastern religions to build our nation? Are you aware of the 'barbaric' state of China and the orient during those years? Why Christianity? If you want to live an 'anti-Christian' life...be my guest! But, for the sake of public safety, lets have some rules and laws restricting people from harming or injuring others. AND...in that debate of HOW to legislate those laws, I believe it is fair and right to include Christians as well as non Christians. There is a game being played by the liberal God-haters: 'I can teach my wacky left-wing/political correct/socialistic/humanistic/homosexual/relativistic morals and ethics etc....to young impressionable kids. BUT!!! You CANNOT teach anything dealing with your Christianity and Christian worldview (under the guise of a misinterpreted First Amendment "separation church and State" hoax).... A convenient little 'secular scam' to keep the poor Christian man down! I will agree NOT to teach Christianity to young kids that don't want to learn it "IF" Liberals will agree NOT to teach their leftist "religion' to kids in schools and stop trying to legislate Christian opposition to their view as a 'hate crime'...DEAL????

Originally posted by Loghead Sounds as if it might be a bit cooler in Wisconsin. Maybe not. yep...I live in the VERY northern part of the state and it is solid trees and lakes...and that is it! About 85 today...a little humid...not bad...

Originally posted by CheeseMustDie man and {censored} that freedom of religion this country was built on, completely bull{censored} ideal that was. WORSHIP THE LORD! your name and avatar rule!!! but.....I disagree with your post

Originally posted by Loghead Not much. nice avatar!...I was actually in San-ber-Dino last week...a big ugly desert...back in the good ol' N-woods now!

Originally posted by Loghead That's what you're trying to do. Why do you need something pinned to the wall? metaphorically...hey L-Head wassup?

Originally posted by indespise And how do you define those who belive the bible is infallible truth? A particular denomination, maybe? The Amish, perhaps? Evangelicals...I believe it was a Gallup pole @2003 or so...

Originally posted by 23miles Did you learn this {censored} in Latham, or have you moved to the Capital District from somewhere else??? Do you really think you have the right to criticize other people for the way they live?? The lifestyle choices of other citizens don't bother me at all. What bothers me is that nitwits like you get all hot an bothered about this stuff and don't seem to mind the fact the government doesn't seem to believe that american citizens actually need basic rights rights: no more knocking and announcing before the police carsh through your door, no right to privacy, no whistle-blower protections, no right of habeus corpus, no need for due process, no right of property ownership so that your local government can claim emminent domain of you property for sale to a private company. If I were you I start hollering loud and long about these current twistings of our old fashion America. Wake up and smell the {censored}ing coffee and stop feeling holier than thou over queer people. why don't you stop beating up on non-queer' people...bronxo-Bully. (hypocrite)

Originally posted by DirtyBird I dont mind that Christians try to live by their Christian moral code... What upsets me is how vehemently Christian want their moral code to be THE moral code. This push to legislate Christian morality into law. This is just not fair to the rest of us. This isn't accurate. Actually it is backward. The only thing our secular society seems to NOT tolerate is Christianity. Did you go to school?.... A history lesson your left-wing liberal God-hating teacher probably didn't teach you.... Our founding Fathers (though most weren't outright Christians or rather Deists) understood the importance of a foundational and stable moral code. Funny how they ALL agreed on the Christian Bible to follow....I have DOZENS and DOZENS of quotes from Jeffereson, Franklin, Henry, Hancock etc...stating that our country will FAIL if it strays from sound faith in the Christian God....they respected the Bible so much they FRAMED our Constitution and Bill of Rights from it's language. There is a reason and definition for 'LIBERTY' and it's basis is espoused NO OTHER PLACE but in the Bible, our ORIGINS as a nation are strickly Biblical...what alot of you young 'know-it-alls' are actually saying is: "Thanks for starting us up and getting us this far God, but, we can take it from here.." I would be MORE than happy to move to a state where Christianity ruled and allow for non-Christians to legislate their own 'morality'...I just don't want to be subject to liberal shifting situational (political correct) ethics and moral relativism...you want to see a real arguement? try discussing morality with a group of people that are moral relativists...no foundation...no standard...like trying to pin jello to the wall...

Originally posted by charliedango I thought I made it pretty clear before. A debate over gay marriage is useless because as society evolves it will be accepted into the mainstream. Resistance to this is a futile endeavor because it's not in sync with the changing times. That's not what you want to know though, is it? You want to know how I feel about homosexuality and gay marriage. You want to know if you should attack my opinion or support it based solely on my personal viewpoint on the matter. Well here it comes... I've never been close enough to anyone homosexual to say whether or not if it's genetic or just a lifestyle choice. With every fiber of my heterosexual being I oppose homosexuality because I cannot fathom being attracted to someone of the same sex as me. I can go the rest of my life with or without homosexuals in this world and not give it another thought. I know a lot of gay people and some members of my wife's family are gay, but I don't avoid them because of it. It costs me too much to put distance between me and the people I don't agree with. I don't actively protest the homosexual lifestyle, even though I don't agree with it. People are entitled to live their own lives and do as they feel. Who am I to tell someone else how to live? I do what I feel is right and I try my best to live happily. If I had a gay son or daughter, I wouldn't disown them. It would be just one of the many obstacles to overcome throughout life that would result in my changing frame of mind. I would evolve beyond the person I was before. That's my persepctive on that. I hope that makes more sense than the last 5 posts I've dedicated to this thread. I got ya now thanks....I agree with most of your post...we aren't that different at all.

Originally posted by Loghead It thinks!!! Oh my God! I never would have suspected. It was a temporary breakdown....I won't let it happen again!

Originally posted by charliedango So God gave us free will so he could be sure he was loved and that it wasn't forced? It makes me uncomfortable to think that God would create all of existence just to make himself feel better about himself. Actually, I'd prefer to believe that God doesn't resign himself to the emotional frailty we as humans sometimes possess. A long time ago I lost faith in the church because what I sought could not be found there. I was displeased with the level of immaturity I experienced on a daily level and placed my hope in the fact that God's teachings brought along with it an enlightemnment that would one day overcome childish ways. My hopes were shattered when I discovered that the elders of my church behaved in the same manner as the children at my school. These men of faith were no better than my schoolmates. I was extremely let down by that. Throughout life I've discovered more and more that there is no difference between childhood and adulthood as I once believed there was. I found that even the oldest and supposedly wisest people on this earth are still capable of acting like complete babies. To me, God represents a creation beyond our tangible reasoning. God isn't a manipulator, or a deceiver. God doesn't play by the same rules as man, that's what makes him God, so why do so many people believe that he is just like us and capable of the same childish behavior? I don't know. I don't pretend to know why God gave us free will, but I'm very certain in the fact that no one else knows either. So we put 'FAITH' toward that endeavor. My church experience, sadly isn't much different than yours...I cannot escape the truth claims of the bible though,... the church may be disfunctional but Jesus is still LORD.

Originally posted by doggage5050 Christianity is not about technicalities All of you looking at technicalities and pointing fingers, on both sides, have a lot of learning and growing up to do. what's your opinion? please....help us out! you seem to come from a place of superior authority.

Originally posted by Ultrahighgain I'm just sayin' I guess I'm braggin'....a little...

Originally posted by charliedango Asssumption number 2 Failed........at..........?? No one. Standard for life choices? That sounds like something you'd here on The View or something. Who said evolution makes things better? All evolution does is present new ideas and new problems. It's the course of life, it's not the path to utopia. Does it need to be fixed? Our society works it's problems out over time. I think the number one problem with most people today is that they want everything right now. I don't really understand that frame of mind anymore, however I used to be just like that. It was hard for me to accept the fact that I couldn't get what I wanted even though I applied myself in the areas I was supposed to and did the things I needed to do to acheive said things. It took me 10 years to realize that just because you work toward something doesn't mean it's guaranteed. Nothing in life is guaranteed, you just have to know how to relax, be patient and plan ahead for a better future......or perhaps that's just age talking. I don't know. Our society isn't that bad. It's got it's ups and downs, but all in all everyone has the power within themselves to overcome and acheive. Goals are important. I guess If there was one thing I would do, it would be to impart onto the next generation a desire to set and acheive goals. Other than that, I'm not complaining. I guess I'm just not understanding your position or worldview on social issues?...you seem to 'borrow' terms from the Christian worldview though...

Originally posted by Ultrahighgain I think a lot of people, Christians included get married because it's the "right thing to do." Perhaps far too many people of all walks in modern society are looking for a relationship with another person to complete them and get married or otherwise committed out of fear and insercurity with themselves. They can't imagine a life alone being complete and fullfilling. Our culture places tremendous pressure on us to marry, have a home, and a family. If a person chooses to remain single, it must be because he or she is undesirable or has some other "issues." I've been MOST happily married for 21 years and happen to be in the category of Christians that believe that The Bible is absolute, 100% accurate and inerrant.

Originally posted by Ultrahighgain Regarding free will: I suppose that God gave us free will because of the reasons for which he created us; love, worship, and companionship. To create is an act of love. Consider how valueless love and worship are unless they are given freely. exactly. God gave us freewill so that our decisions have significance. We 'determine' our destiny per our decision making. We can 'choose' to love God or hate Him...or not believe He exists at all. God is not intimidated by unbelievers.

Originally posted by Lgehrig4 I think it does. Going through the motions, which is pretty much what most people do isn't faith in my opinion. Saying you believe because you're afraid not to believe, but then living life in ways contradictory to your religion is not faith. I think the faith was more genuine in the old days. I'm not religious and I'm only 37, but if you observe the way our elders practice their religions you will see much more dedication, sacrifice and deep seeded faith than you will with younger people (in general). My grandmother is 86 and she lost her husband in 1965. She never remarried or dated because she says that she is still married. I have a friend who's late grandmother did the same. I'm Italian and he's Albanian so the cultures are different, but the results were the same. Lets see how many poeple show that kind of dedication these days. For people that 'claim' to be Christian the divorce rate is: 54%..... For those that believe that the Bible is God's inerrant Word and absolutely true, the divorce rate is: maybe there's something to that Bible

Originally posted by charliedango 1. Did I say I was the authority? Life goes on and people gather more and more information over time. It's a natural occurance and no one can prevent that from happening as it's been tried in the past and has failed. The information people gather forces each of us to evaluate and re-evaluate our ever changing world. There are people who are afraid to grow and there are those who welcome growth with open arms. The world presents everyone with obstacles to overcome. Some are easy and some are very difficult, but the only way for people to move on is to overcome. 2. That's an assumption on your part. I'm following historical trends and using that as a basis of my opinion on the present and my assumptions of the future. Whether I agree with it or not is a moot point. 3. The hope is that we would not use it for selfish endeavors, but still selfish endeavors are undertaken daily by all. That's why forgiveness is in place, to remedy those who indulge in the daily sins of life. What I was saying was that if God were adamant about his law and his commandments, he wouldn't have given people free will. Free will is our gift to use as we see fit, yet people still insist that God means for us to live a certain way. I think God knows better than his subjects what he intended. Besides, most Christians abide by double-standards all the time. Defending the sanctity of marriage when it comes to homosexual union, but doing nothing to oppose divorce. Why not take up legislation to ban divorce if the sanctity of marriage should be upheld? It's a double-standard that there is no getting around. What's good for one should be good for all, no? Like I said before, this entire gay marriage ban debate is just a time-waster and in 20 years will be as relevent as debates over whether or not women deserve the right to vote. You can't stop progress. Well, if you don't believe in God, and Christianity has failed....who do YOU trust? What is your 'standard' for life choices? and, if we live in 'modern' times and society has 'evolved', then, how come things aren't better? How would YOU 'fix' society? (answer in order please)

Originally posted by charliedango No, it shouldn't be dismissed based on it's origin, but if it's counterproductive to the advancement of our modern society and an attempt to keep us from expanding our cultural horizons as a nation, then it should be dismissed. A person who interprets the Bible as irrefutable law and will not budge on that concept should be ignored because their steadfast dedication to their faith makes it impossible for them to change. A person who is more faith-concious, but flexible on the terms of Biblical law will most likely present a more level-headed debate and is more willing to concede to ideas that make sense as opposed to hardliners who feel it should be God's way or the highway. According to the Bible, God gave us free will to do with the world and our lives as we felt. If God was truly that adamant about keeping us in-line, he certainly wouldn't have given us free will. 1) Who appointed YOU authority over what is "counterproductive to modern society"? and what criteria do you use for your isoteric conclusions? 2) It is YOU that refuses to 'budge' when negotiating and discussing issues. 3) Free will is given, yes! but that we would use it for love and peace.... not selfish endeavors (and that does not mean we cannot defend ourselves from those that are murderous and self serving at the expense of others).

Originally posted by Loghead Is this a political or a religious thread? I think this statement demonstrates part of the communication problem. People generally view 'religion' as being only 'faith' based and therefore separate and invalid from commentary dealing with social issues. The frustration on the part of the Christian or person of faith is scaling this communication barrier to demonstrate that his/her opinion although biblically based is VERY relevant to solving the social issues facing society. The non-Christian or person without faith believes that ANYTHING biblical isn't valid in secular society and should remain ONLY within the walls of a church. Possible solution: 1) We all have preconceptions and worldviews (faith or non faith) and ideas about solving social issues. A biblical view should not be dismissed just because it's from the bible and a non-biblical view should not be dismissed just because it isn't in the bible....simple. 2) We aren't gonna agree on everything. 3) That's OK 'IF' we are seeking the common good for all, and our purpose is peace.

Originally posted by indespise That was not the issue behind this thread. re-read the first post and then read my post again...keep doing it until it makes sense...

Originally posted by indespise That's great, use a verse from the bible to "prove" that people need it. In the beginning God created......

Originally posted by outtahear Ann Coulter is the {censored} that tells the football team that the retarded girls parents are out of town, feeds her beer, and tells the police that the football team couldn't have raped her, because they were @ a bible study with her, and it's typical that everyone is jealous, and it's not fair that everyone picks on them, bla, bla, bla, ...................................................................................................Then there is the lowlife half-mongoloids that would actually admire/quote that walking half-bag of syphalis..... what the heck are you talkin' about...