attn: I apologize for this (politics inside)

[Lgehrig4]

Originally posted by la0tsu And when has it ever worked out for the best of the less civilized culture? Just because it's been done doesn't mean it's right or in keeping with our culture.

 

 

It works for the civilized cultures.

 

 

Originally posted by la0tsu That's not too far from what's been happening in Darfur, the Sudan. I would love it if we could intervene there, but we have such a massive troop commitment in Iraq that we don't have the resources. This is what I mean when I say that I opposed the war because it would degrade our ability to respond to international crises.

 

 

Please embellish. I would like to know more about this.

 

 

 

Originally posted by la0tsu Well, you have to draw the line somewhere. Unfortunately, there is way more bad {censored} going on in the world than we can take care of. For example, most of Africa.

 

 

No one says it all has to be fixed in our lifetimes. It takes about 20 minutes to clean up your room. Might take 20yrs to clean up a country. Be patient

 

 

Originally posted by la0tsu I REALLY hope that you aren't implying that lack of support for the mission equates to lack of support for our troops.

 

 

No, just a show of support on my part. If I have a point to make I will say it outright.

 

 

 

Originally posted by la0tsu It was agriculture that allowed humans to settle and leave behind the hunter-gatherer life. War is unfortunately necessary sometimes, when thrust upon us (1939 in Europe for example), but it should never be untaken by choice. Aggressive war has never been to the long-term benefit of those waging it.

 

 

Agriculture was obviously an advancement that originated in with intelligent/civil tribes. Tribes that most likely at some point had to fight and kill less intelligent/civil tribes to survive for whatever reason, thus continuing their agricultural ways.

[Lgehrig4]

Originally posted by Urban Ghandi You seem like a very intelligent and peaceful guy...I respect and admire that. "We" might be beyond war but it's not all about "us." It takes the whole world to think this way before there is a lasting peace. The world is full of "haves" and "have nots." If you "have it" you want to keep it you you "don't have it" you want it. I am always reminded of this everytime I travel abroad. This is where the problems arise. The problem with turning a blind eye to something like radical Islam is this stuff spills over into what you might call civilized countries. You see, these people have an agenda...To be the last one's standing when the music stops...a world of Islam or die trying. It's a sad state of affairs with no easy answer. All I know is my wife would look silly in a Burka!

+1
Couldn't have put it any better and can't understand why this is not clear to all these history/philosophy buffs on this site.

[DirtyBird]

I have no problem with war on terror (other than the sweeping vagueities of such a "war", and how easily it can be manipulated to violate American civil liberties). Killing extremists that want to kill us is fine.

I also dont think we need ot pull out of Iraq and leave the mess or we'll be in a much worse position than we're in now.

But I do feel like the War on Terror has nothing to do with "liberating" Iraq. Saddam has nothing to do with Osama Bin Laden or Al Qaeda.

So why are we there?

If they would just tell me it's for oil so we dont have to deal with oil cartels (and I do believe this is for the good of the American people, it's just somewhat selfish) and so we can have a prime chunk of real estate from which to keep tabs on the rest of the middle east... that's fine. I disagree... but at least I feel like they're being honest.

Sometimes these things are necessary, and even if I dont think they are, I understand why those in power DO think so.

I feel like our presence in Iraq is like poking a stick at a hornet's nest.

I feel like Muslim extremist resentment towards us is much worse than it otherwise would be due to our military support of Israel.

It's a gigantic cluster{censored} and I honestly wish the crazies over there would just kill each other off but... probably not gonna happen.

To me Israel is the cluster{censored}, and we've got our hands in their backpockets... not good for us.

There's no easy way out, moreover, I still see Iraq as mostly irrelevant. But I'd feel better about it if they were just honest about it. As it is I feel like our government has no respect whatsoever for its constituents.

[telephant]

Originally posted by guitar shmoe naive are those that don't respect the resolve of our enemies (MILLIONS of middle eastern extremist/terrorists) to kill all Americans possible....at ANY COST! (not just soldiers but ALL AMERICANS!!!) If these 'enemies' are allowed (at any level) to operate, we WILL EVENTUALLY, have more 9/11's...many more! It is part of our culture to show mercy and establish liberty, freedom and democratic/people rule. Our enemies DO NOT operate on such a cultural/social notion. They will NOT show any mercy and will not stop until they KILL ALL AMERICANS and subjugate the planet to their whacked-out/extremist idealism. Why is it sooooo hard for liberals to understand this most basic principle? It isn't semantics anymore...it is kill or be killed. SIMPLE! We shouldn't be ashamed (as some liberals tend to act..) because we are winning the 'war' and stemming the TIDE of terrorism....this is most commendable.

 

 

You know, I always wondered how they fit all those damn midgets in those tiny little clown cars. How do they do it?

[***1776***]

Originally posted by DirtyBird I have no problem with war on terror (other than the sweeping vagueities of such a "war", and how easily it can be manipulated to violate American civil liberties). Killing extremists that want to kill us is fine. I also dont think we need ot pull out of Iraq and leave the mess or we'll be in a much worse position than we're in now. But I do feel like the War on Terror has nothing to do with "liberating" Iraq. Saddam has nothing to do with Osama Bin Laden or Al Qaeda. So why are we there? If they would just tell me it's for oil so we dont have to deal with oil cartels (and I do believe this is for the good of the American people, it's just somewhat selfish) and so we can have a prime chunk of real estate from which to keep tabs on the rest of the middle east... that's fine. I disagree... but at least I feel like they're being honest. Sometimes these things are necessary, and even if I dont think they are, I understand why those in power DO think so. I feel like our presence in Iraq is like poking a stick at a hornet's nest. I feel like Muslim extremist resentment towards us is much worse than it otherwise would be due to our military support of Israel. It's a gigantic cluster{censored} and I honestly wish the crazies over there would just kill each other off but... probably not gonna happen. To me Israel is the cluster{censored}, and we've got our hands in their backpockets... not good for us. There's no easy way out, moreover, I still see Iraq as mostly irrelevant. But I'd feel better about it if they were just honest about it. As it is I feel like our government has no respect whatsoever for its constituents.

Sounds like your just questioning yourself and others about some crazy {censored} in the world, i think thats a healthy good thing 2 do..


1 thing i will point out as far as Isreal is that they basically didnt do anything to start this particular fighting (started over a week ago) This time its ALL HEZBOLLA who started this {censored}!!

They started by invading Isreali territory (appointed by U.N.) UNPROVOKED - Attacking/Killing Isreali soldiers UNPROVOKED, Kiddnapping Isreali Soldiers UNPROVOKED, launching hundreds and hundreds of missles at Isreali UNPROVOKED, trying to kill Isreali civilians on purpose UNPROVOKED!

Sorry but Isreal has every right to defend itselves , i cant blame Isreal on this 1! As long as they are killing the Hezbolla scumbags i think its ok, also remember that Hezbolla "doctrine" says they are for the Annihilation of Isreal", i dont know but that doesnt sound 2 friendly to me..

[DirtyBird]

Originally posted by ***1776*** Sounds like your just questioning yourself and others about some crazy {censored} in the world, i think thats a healthy good thing 2 do.. 1 thing i will point out as far as Isreal is that they basically didnt do anything to start this particular fighting (started over a week ago) This time its ALL HEZBOLLA who started this {censored}!! They started by invading Isreali territory (appointed by U.N.) UNPROVOKED - Attacking/Killing Isreali soldiers UNPROVOKED, Kiddnapping Isreali Soldiers UNPROVOKED, launching hundreds and hundreds of missles at Isreali UNPROVOKED, trying to kill Isreali civilians on purpose UNPROVOKED! Sorry but Isreal has every right to defend itselves , i cant blame Isreal on this 1! As long as they are killing the Hezbolla scumbags i think its ok, also remember that Hezbolla "doctrine" says they are for the Annihilation of Isreal", i dont know but that doesnt sound 2 friendly to me..

Thanks for hte kind words.


As far as my feelings on Israel.

I feel like we displaced "conquered" peoples and put our own friends there. Like we stole someone's house, gave it to our friends, and made the previous occupants live in a shanty in the backyard because we had the bigger guns.

That's perfectly fine, but obviously Hezbollah and others object to Israel's existence.

I dont mind Israel being there. But I believe if Israel can't defend itself with its own resources then it has no right to exist. If they could just .... pay for the support we give them, I wouldn't care. But they fight because we help them. And this fight has been going on since Israel was put there after WWII.

I'm not going to get into who deserves that land, it's obviously important to both of them, but I feel that Israel needs to be able to support its own war efforts with its own resources in order to have the right to exist as a soverign nation.

They definitely have a right to defend themselves, but that's not my issue with them.

[la0tsu]

Originally posted by Lgehrig4 It works for the civilized cultures.

 

 

It led to the downfall of Rome, Spain, France, Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, and many more minor civilizations. If you spend too many resources on war, your economy eventually suffers. Even Britain couldn't maintain a primarily economic based empire. It takes a lot more money and manpower to maintain overseas holdings than it does the homeland. This is a fact.

 

And even if you accept the fact that it works for the civilized nations (which I categorically refuse), how is that moral? What is the value of ruling the earth if you give up your soul in the process?

 

 

Please embellish. I would like to know more about this.

 

 

Here's a decent primer. It's Wikipedia, so it probably has some errors in it, but the general information is pretty accurate.

 

Wikipedia: Darfur Conflict

 

No one says it all has to be fixed in our lifetimes. It takes about 20 minutes to clean up your room. Might take 20yrs to clean up a country. Be patient

 

 

Hmmm. It seems to me like we've got enough to worry about in the US without adding "Clean up world" to the list. Besides, if it takes 20 years to clean up a country, and there are at least 100 nations in need of cleanup (and there are - most of Africa, for example), we're looking at a 2000 year project. There are only two civilizations that have been around that long, China and India. Only China has had self determination that long, and it has never been a nation to fight wars on foreign soil. No nation that has had an imperialistic bent has lasted long enough to do what you're talking about. It just isn't economically, politically, or morally viable.

 

No, just a show of support on my part. If I have a point to make I will say it outright.

 

 

Fair enough. I have very strong feelings on that subject.

 

Agriculture was obviously an advancement that originated in with intelligent/civil tribes. Tribes that most likely at some point had to fight and kill less intelligent/civil tribes to survive for whatever reason, thus continuing their agricultural ways.

 

 

Your first sentence is correct, but I just don't know that the second one is. Even if it is, it is probable that they fought only after being assaulted by hunter-gatherer tribes. Unfortunately, we don't have any records from that time, so anything either of us says is going to be conjecture.

[guitar shmoe]

Originally posted by ***1776*** PS --- NOT all arabs want us "dead", its the EXTREMISTS like Hezbolla, Hamas, and the 72 virgin "kooks"... PSS - Lets not paint all the arabs with 1 brush, its simply not correct!

 

 

You are not aquanted with the sociology of the masses...

 

when the Nazi Army marched into Paris (and many other occupying territories...) the populace CHEERED and waved Nazi flags WELCOMING their conquering occupying heroes!

 

They did the same thing when British and American armies liberated the regions...

 

My point: if you think for one minute that the Arab/Middle East countries wouldn't ALL (total populace) mass together against America (should the war against terror begin to lean in the direction of the radical extremists...)...then, you know NOTHING about world history or the sociology of societies....they, by and large HATE/Envy America and would be VERY quick to jump on the 'Kill America' bandwagon...if they thought it were possible they would!

[la0tsu]

Originally posted by ***1776*** 1 thing i will point out as far as Isreal is that they basically didnt do anything to start this particular fighting (started over a week ago) This time its ALL HEZBOLLA who started this {censored}!

 

 

Well, I don't think you can look at it as a separate event from the rest of the history of Israel. This has roots more than 100 years deep.

 

That's not to say that Israel is wrong and Hezbollah is right. It just is a much more complex situation than the last 10 days. Israel certainly has a right to defend itself. I personally think that they go about it like a bull in a china shop (cue Family Guy clip), and that while it might get them a brief respite, this approach has been tried for decades without success. Obviously, I feel the same way about Hezbollah, and denounce their tactics as well. The problem is neither side has demonstrated through their actions a desire for peace.

 

On a related note, this is an interesting read:

 

NY Times: He Who Cast the First Stone Probably Didn't

 

Quick summary: Humans are more likely to see other people's actions and their own motivations, and not the other way around.

[***1776***]

Originally posted by la0tsu Well, I don't think you can look at it as a separate event from the rest of the history of Israel. This has roots more than 100 years deep. That's not to say that Israel is wrong and Hezbollah is right. It just is a much more complex situation than the last 10 days. Israel certainly has a right to defend itself. I personally think that they go about it like a bull in a china shop (cue Family Guy clip), and that while it might get them a brief respite, this approach has been tried for decades without success. Obviously, I feel the same way about Hezbollah, and denounce their tactics as well. The problem is neither side has demonstrated through their actions a desire for peace. On a related note, this is an interesting read: NY Times: He Who Cast the First Stone Probably Didn't Quick summary: Humans are more likely to see other people's actions and their own motivations, and not the other way around.

 

 

Ok fair enough, thats why i SPECIFICLY said "this time", (not 6 months ago, not 2 yrs ago) im not giving Isreal a pass, but like i said they were attacked/assualted, etc by Hezbolla unprovoked!

 

There are alot of Arabs in the region (younger students, etc) who DESPISE the xtreme "loonacy" of the 72 virgin kooks, while they may not "love" America, they are NOT precoccupied with the death/destruction BS that the extremists are..

 

1 more time, i dont think its fair to paint them all with 1 brush..

[guitar shmoe]

Originally posted by la0tsu The problem is neither side has demonstrated through their actions a desire for peace.

 

 

This isn't accurate...Israel has not 'attacked' (initiated conflict..) Palestine or Hezbollah etc...the Arab nations will not allow them to exist on the same planet, they continue to attack and provoke...then cry when they get their butts beat...Israel has proven that they can exist for long periods without any aggression/war, the same cannot be said of the Arab/Palestinian Nations, where war and killing is part of their culture (defines their culture really...). Peace will not exist unless the Arab/Palestinians relent (hahahah...) or, are completely and utterly destroyed.

[Craggin]

Originally posted by guitar shmoe naive are those that don't respect the resolve of our enemies (MILLIONS of middle eastern extremist/terrorists) to kill all Americans possible....at ANY COST! (not just soldiers but ALL AMERICANS!!!) If these 'enemies' are allowed (at any level) to operate, we WILL EVENTUALLY, have more 9/11's...many more! It is part of our culture to show mercy and establish liberty, freedom and democratic/people rule. Our enemies DO NOT operate on such a cultural/social notion. They will NOT show any mercy and will not stop until they KILL ALL AMERICANS and subjugate the planet to their whacked-out/extremist idealism. Why is it sooooo hard for liberals to understand this most basic principle? It isn't semantics anymore...it is kill or be killed. SIMPLE! We shouldn't be ashamed (as some liberals tend to act..) because we are winning the 'war' and stemming the TIDE of terrorism....this is most commendable.

 

 

So on one hand you say we show mercy, but then you go on to state "kill or be killed"???

 

Please let me know how we're winning the war and stemming the tide of terrorism?

[la0tsu]

Originally posted by guitar shmoe This isn't accurate...Israel has not 'attacked' (initiated conflict..) Palestine or Hezbollah etc...the Arab nations will not allow them to exist on the same planet, they continue to attack and provoke...then cry when they get their butts beat...Israel has proven that they can exist for long periods without any aggression/war, the same cannot be said of the Arab/Palestinian Nations, where war and killing is part of their culture (defines their culture really...). Peace will not exist unless the Arab/Palestinians relent (hahahah...) or, are completely and utterly destroyed.

 

 

Look, if you want to be taken seriously, you need to make some cogent points, instead of broad generalizations. Jordan and Egypt, both Arab nations, have been at peace with Israel for decades. There are other Arab nations that may not approve of Israel's actions, but nevertheless are not at war with them.

 

On top of that, you completely miss the point. Just because you have the right to respond in kind doesn't make it the wise thing to do.

 

I'm sorry, but you haven't demonstrated much credibility in this discussion.

[guitar shmoe]

Originally posted by la0tsu Look, if you want to be taken seriously, you need to have peace with Israel for decades. There are other Arab nations that approve of Israel's actions, but are at war with them. On top of that, you wise. I'm sorry, you have demonstrated much credibility in this discussion.

 

 

I'm not trying to win a 'forum debate' and I don't mind if you think I am over generalizing the issue...at the end of the day, what I am saying here is true and will continue to be true as it hasn't changed for decades....

[la0tsu]

Originally posted by guitar shmoe I'm not trying to win a 'forum debate' and I don't mind if you think I am over generalizing the issue...at the end of the day, what I am saying here is true and will continue to be true as it hasn't changed for decades....

 

 

It seems that you aren't interested in discussing this, so why bother posting at all?

 

See ya!

[guitar shmoe]

Originally posted by la0tsu It seems that you aren't interested in discussing this, so why bother posting at all? See ya!

 

 

no, it just doesn't take alot of words to come up with a simple 'solution' to the Middle East problem....

 

1) As long as the Palestinian/Arab Nations continue to attack Israel there will not be peace in that region.

 

2) The Palestinian/Arab Nations are unwilling to stop attacking Israel

 

3) Therefore, there will not be peace in that region.

 

SOLUTION FORTHCOMING:

 

The Palestinian/Arab Nations must be FORCED to cease hostilities/attacks against Israel....

 

Then, they may HATE each other, but, there can be at least a co-existence with a modicum of peace...

 

that's all I wanted to say....

[Lgehrig4]

Originally posted by DirtyBird I have no problem with war on terror (other than the sweeping vagueities of such a "war", and how easily it can be manipulated to violate American civil liberties). Killing extremists that want to kill us is fine.

What do you mean by the manipulation of civil liberties? I keep reading comments like this and I'm not quite sure what liberties have been comprimised.

I also dont think we need ot pull out of Iraq and leave the mess or we'll be in a much worse position than we're in now.

Agreed. Wouldn't be right for the Iraqis at this point either.

But I do feel like the War on Terror has nothing to do with "liberating" Iraq. Saddam has nothing to do with Osama Bin Laden or Al Qaeda.

I'm sure it didn't and don't care. We needed to establish a presence because if we didn't our grandchildren would be reading from the Koran.

So why are we there?

See above

If they would just tell me it's for oil so we dont have to deal with oil cartels (and I do believe this is for the good of the American people, it's just somewhat selfish) and so we can have a prime chunk of real estate from which to keep tabs on the rest of the middle east... that's fine. I disagree... but at least I feel like they're being honest.

Taking down these countries that support Muslim extremists is a good thing for us regardless of the reasons we are given.

I feel like our presence in Iraq is like poking a stick at a hornet's nest.

If you ever have a hornet's nest in your backyard, make sure you don't leave it there unless you want to be stung. Just poking a stick isn't too helpful either........hmmm, mayby a nuclear spray would help?

I feel like Muslim extremist resentment towards us is much worse than it otherwise would be due to our military support of Israel.

Of course, we are getting in their way. Your friend's enemies will become your enemies as well. Support your friends!

It's a gigantic cluster{censored} and I honestly wish the crazies over there would just kill each other off but... probably not gonna happen.

Unfortunately the ones we consider bad would be killing the ones we consider good.

To me Israel is the cluster{censored}, and we've got our hands in their backpockets... not good for us.

Better than their front pockets. That would be gay

There's no easy way out, moreover, I still see Iraq as mostly irrelevant. But I'd feel better about it if they were just honest about it. As it is I feel like our government has no respect whatsoever for its constituents.

I trust the gov't more on foreign policies than domestic. At least with foreign we are on the same team.

[la0tsu]

Originally posted by guitar shmoe no, it just doesn't take alot of words to come up with a simple 'solution' to the Middle East problem.... 1) As long as the Palestinian/Arab Nations continue to attack Israel there will not be peace in that region. 2) The Palestinian/Arab Nations are unwilling to stop attacking Israel 3) Therefore, there will not be peace in that region. SOLUTION FORTHCOMING: The Palestinian/Arab Nations must be FORCED to cease hostilities/attacks against Israel.... Then, they may HATE each other, but, there can be at least a co-existence with a modicum of peace... that's all I wanted to say....

 

 

I see your point, but two things:

 

1) No nation of any sort, Arab or otherwise, has attacked Israel in decades. Certainly there have been far too many terrorist attacks, but not attacks by any nation.

 

2) Israel needs to show some willingness to help improve the Palestinian situation. Leaving Gaza was a good first step, or rather, would have been had it not been accompanied by a unilateral annexation of parts of the West bank. But things like rounding up all Palestinian men in a city and putting them in prison camps and large scale demolition of Palestinian homes do nothing to improve relations.

 

3) Force has been used ad nauseum against the Palestinians, and it has gotten Israel nowhere. If people are willing to blow themselves up for a cause, how are you going to force them to do anything?

 

Look at it like this: if the Crips are operating in your neighborhood, and the police came and destroyed ALL housing in the area, including yours, how understanding are you going to be? This isn't to justify what the Crips (or Hezbollah, or Hamas) are doing. Just because one side is wrong doesn't mean the other side is correct.

 

One could just as easily say:

 

1) As long as Israel continues to exact collective punishment, there will not be peace in the region.

 

2) The Israelis are unwilling to stop using collective punishment.

 

3) Therefore, there will not be peace in the region.

 

That's not a solution, is it? Well, neither is what you stated. It is not a simple situation, and treating it as such is only going to make it worse. This goes for both sides.

 

I don't know what the solution is, but military force is not it, or else this problem would have been solved decades ago.

[la0tsu]

Originally posted by Lgehrig4 What do you mean by the manipulation of civil liberties? I keep reading comments like this and I'm not quite sure what liberties have been comprimised.

 

 

I'm not sure what he's referring to, but there's the matter of hundreds of prisoners being held without charges or communication with anyone for years on end. There's also the matter of prisoners being sent for interrogation to countries that permit torture.

 

 

We needed to establish a presence because if we didn't our grandchildren would be reading from the Koran.

 

 

Wow. That is one hell of a leap. Man, I don't think Jesse Owens could leap that high on the moon. There is NO WAY that islamic extremists will ever be in any position other than to make an occasional attack on us. There is NO WAY they have the man power, machinery or resources to take over the US. NONE.

 

 

Taking down these countries that support Muslim extremists is a good thing for us regardless of the reasons we are given.

 

 

Except for one thing: taking out any government creates a power vacuum. Power Vacuums lead to extremists taking over. It is much better to work with a government to try to make it more palatable for them to cut ties with extremists than it is to take them out and leave a power vacuum. I mean, look at Iraq. We have basically provided a training ground for islamic operatives where they had no foothold to begin with.

 

 

If you ever have a hornet's nest in your backyard, make sure you don't leave it there unless you want to be stung. Just poking a stick isn't too helpful either........hmmm, mayby a nuclear spray would help?

 

 

Well, unfortunately there are two problems here. We're not dealing with hornets, we're dealing with human beings. Secondly, there isn't a fixed number of terrorists out there. If you go in guns ablazing, you will create more terrorists than you kill.

 

 

Unfortunately the ones we consider bad would be killing the ones we consider good.

 

 

Or perhaps without the image of the great American Satan, the terrorists would lose their power of persuasion. Extremists suck, but without the ability to focus their followers on an enemy, they have no power. Without that foil, it becomes clear that they have no clothes.

 

Look, there is no easy solution to any of this mess. If a bunch of idiots on an amp discussion board (myself included to be sure) could come up with an answer, this wouldn't be an issue anymore. That said, it seems clear to me that you can't keep trying the same thing over and over again and hope that one of these times it'll give a different result. That's the definition of insanity.

[guitar shmoe]

Originally posted by la0tsu I see your point, but two things: 1) No nation of any sort, Arab or otherwise, has attacked Israel in decades. Certainly there have been far too many terrorist attacks, but not attacks by any nation. 2) Israel needs to show some willingness to help improve the Palestinian situation. Leaving Gaza was a good first step, or rather, would have been had it not been accompanied by a unilateral annexation of parts of the West bank. But things like rounding up all Palestinian men in a city and putting them in prison camps and large scale demolition of Palestinian homes do nothing to improve relations. 3) Force has been used ad nauseum against the Palestinians, and it has gotten Israel nowhere. If people are willing to blow themselves up for a cause, how are you going to force them to do anything? Look at it like this: One could just as easily say: 1) As long as Israel continues to exact collective punishment, there will not be peace in the region. 2) The Israelis are unwilling to stop using collective punishment. 3) Therefore, there will not be peace in the region. That's not a solution, is it? Well, neither is what you stated. It is not a simple situation, and treating it as such is only going to make it worse. This goes for both sides. I don't know what the solution is, but military force is not it, or else this problem would have been solved decades ago.

 

 

actually...you listed 3 things...

at least we are following each other logically. I disagree with your assertion that Israel is as 'guilty' as the Terrorists/Palestinians/Arab side...you keep FORGETTING one IMPORTANT...yes, VERY IMPORTANT FACT: Israel does not INITIATE the fighting....why are you NOT getting this?

 

Israel doesn't have 'terrorists' training to go out and blow-up Palestinians because they hate them...they don't have suicide murderers of innocent citizens.

 

Israel doesn't just decide one day to go out and (for no other reason than hate) rocket launch a bunch of Palestinians...or, kidnap and torture them etc...

 

Israel does not parade a bunch of Nationally backed followers on national TV and swear to kill all Palestinians until they are ALL DEAD....

 

Israel WILL defend itself from such attacks though!

 

my point is: The Palestinian/Arab/Terrorists 'DO' all these things and worse....

 

WHY?????

 

Cause they HATE ISRAEL!.....therefore, as with dealing with ALL BULLIES...they must be stopped.

[draelyc]

Originally posted by FWAxeIbanez a disclaimer if you will: I have no problem with liberals, I'm not one to disagree and take it personally... as far as I'm concerned, liberals and conservatives are both after the same thing, just with different methods of getting there. But every now and then I hear something or see something and I can't understand what goes through thier heads... Obviously this person isn't speaking for all liberals, so I'm not taking it that way, but the fact that there is a market for a T-shirt like this, and the fact that people are actually buying enough of them for one to show up in my small town scares me, so here it is _____________________________ So I work at a grocery store, and a guy walks in wearing a shirt that says: The Fundamentalists Voted for a Holy War and All I Got Was This Lousy Draft Notice I don't even know what to say... how would someone come to the conclusion that this statement has any pertinence to the war in Iraq? To be honest, the shirt might have nothing to do with Iraq and might be regarding a war I'm not aware of, if so, please clue me in... But I don't remember anyone voting for a war, and I definitely don't remember any draft, all I remember are some left wing nuts starting up a draft scare during election time and giving hard working liberal americans a bad name... And to call the war in Iraq a holy war makes my head hurt... the only ones who brought religion into this were the ones in the planes... We are in Iraq because Hussein was toying with us during weapons inspections and wasn't cooperating in finding Bin Laden... These left wing nuts are lucky that most Americans have a bad memory, because these days everyone thinks we are fighting because "they" slammed the planes into the twin towers, and they have ceased to remember who "they" is exactly. I remember well all the chances we've given Hussein since the last war, and I remember that a lot happened between 9/11 and our actual attack... Sadly, most don't, and the crazies prey on that Seriously tho, lets hear from some liberals, what does this shirt have to do with anything? How is this anything other than willful verbal manipulation? I know (most) conservatives will agree with me, so lets hear from someone that this shirt is supposed to speak for... really, this thread is not about justifying the war, or my opinions about the war, its about the shirt and the growing trend lately of throwing out these highly loaded phrases that don't actually ever hold water ... this is what scares me the most, just because a statement draws a very real emotion out of you doesn't mean its truthful or honest (and yes there is a difference between the two)

Let me explain it like this: Jonathan Swift, in 1729, wasn't *really* trying to get people to sell their one year old infants to be used by the rich for a luxurious food, despite the fact that that's what he said on the surface (the "t-shirt," if you will) of his argument.

Irony.

[la0tsu]

Originally posted by guitar shmoe actually...you listed 3 things...

 

 

Ooops! That's what happens when you get this blowhard goin'!

 

 

I disagree with your assertion that Israel is as 'guilty' as the Terrorists/Palestinians/Arab side...you keep FORGETTING one IMPORTANT...yes, VERY IMPORTANT FACT: Israel does not INITIATE the fighting....why are you NOT getting this?

 

 

I never said anything about equality of guilt. But, if you are one of the moderate palestinians who never attacked Israel, and whose home was demolished, or who lost your brother/sister/mother/daughter/father/son, it would seem that Israel DID start it to you. This is what YOU are not getting. Hey, I have repeatedly said that I don't think the terrorists should be attacking Israel. Why don't you get that?

 

 

Israel doesn't have 'terrorists' training to go out and blow-up Palestinians because they hate them...they don't have suicide murderers of innocent citizens.

 

 

No, they have a trained military that kills innocent palestinians from afar. That may not be their goal, but it IS the result.

 

 

my point is: The Palestinian/Arab/Terrorists 'DO' all these things and worse.... WHY????? Cause they HATE ISRAEL!.....therefore, as with dealing with ALL BULLIES...they must be stopped.

 

 

You keep ignoring the fact that NOT ALL ARABS OR PALESTINIANS carry out these acts or support them, yet all are subject to Israeli retaliation. That is not justice. If your neighbor kills my wife, am I justified in killing everyone in your neighborhood?

 

I am NOT defending terrorists, and I don't see why you don't understand that. I am trying to show you what is wrong with the Israeli response. Should they defend themselves? Absolutely. But responding with excessive force is NOT going to make the terror stop.

[Lgehrig4]

Originally posted by draelyc Let me explain it like this: Jonathan Swift, in 1729, wasn't *really* trying to get people to sell their one year old infants to be used by the rich for a luxurious food, despite the fact that that's what he said on the surface (the "t-shirt," if you will) of his argument. Irony .

So you don't know what it means either.

[draelyc]

Originally posted by Lgehrig4 So you don't know what it means either.

I have a pretty good idea. Think about it ... it'll come to you.

[guitar shmoe]

Originally posted by la0tsu I never said anything about equality of guilt. But, if you are one of the moderate palestinians who never attacked Israel, and whose home was demolished, or who lost your brother/sister/mother/daughter/father/son, it would seem that Israel DID start it to you. This is what YOU are not getting. Hey, I have repeatedly said that I don't think the terrorists should be attacking Israel. Why don't you get that? No, they have a trained military that kills innocent palestinians from afar. That may not be their goal, but it IS the result. You keep ignoring the fact that NOT ALL ARABS OR PALESTINIANS carry out these acts or support them, yet all are subject to Israeli retaliation. That is not justice. If your neighbor kills my wife, am I justified in killing everyone in your neighborhood? I am NOT defending terrorists, and I don't see why you don't understand that. I am trying to show you what is wrong with the Israeli response. Should they defend themselves? Absolutely. But responding with excessive force is NOT going to make the terror stop.

 

 

I get cha now! and I agree with you pretty much...though, do you think Israel can 'negotiate' with these people? What do you suggest they do?