guitar shmoe

Originally posted by Loghead These words sound as if they were espoused by a Christian chauvinist. I'm not sure if it's still there, but at least there used to be this very small Black Baptist church on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, quite close to my father's place. They had the typical...whatchermacallit sign outside the door

Originally posted by potaetoes did somebody say the founding fathers agreed upon christianity definitively as a moral base? actual history shows that they specifically rejected it. Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination. -Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782 Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear. -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787 History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes. -Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813. Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814 In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814 And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors. -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823 Gosh you are tiring....do I really have to list all the quotes from Thomas Jefferson that are ABSOLUTELY supportive of a Christian led Union?? though he was an open Deist...(along with B Franklin) Here's some T Jefferson to put in your pipe: " The Bible is the cornerstone of liberty, our student's perusal of the Sacred Volume will make us better citizens" Jefferson approved a Congressional decision to ordain special lands "for the sole use of Christian Indians"....."to be entrusted to the Moravian Brethren for civilizing the Indians and promoting Christianity" and in 1796 "An act Regulating the Grants of Land Appropriated for Military Services and for the Society of the United Brethren for Propagating the Christian Gospel among the Heathen" 3 times Jefferson voted to extend this act... In foreign affairs Jefferson sought to represent America as a Christian nation. Before the Treaty of Peace and Amity at Tripoli was ratified on June 4, 1804, Jefferson PERSONALLY required a particular clause (article XI) to be removed from the articles language. This clause stated that the United States "is not, in any sense, founded on Christian religion". On and on and on it goes....I have hundreds of em!!! Let's PLAY! GAME ON!

Originally posted by indespise Regarding your initial statement, a line from tan Immolation song ( Storm of Terror) comes to mind: "Call yourself the victim, but it's you whio walks a vicious path" That sums up the topic of Christians claiming that there is a war (of Satan ) against their faith. Claiming to be persecuted makes moder Christians feel good about themselves. A world with a majority population of Christians isn't a world intolerant of them, but (some) Christains often whine that it is so because they can see their religion losing the chokehold on today's society (particularly in the US). Enter the facist neo-cons like Ann Coulter. There are much better sources for a code of liberty than the Bible. Study Taoism, Zen, Hindu and Buddhism if you want good examples. That said, there are some good foundations in the Bible. If the founding fathers wanted morals to be mandated entirely by Christianity, freedom of religion, nor seperation of church and state wouldn't have been in our framework. Your statement about "young know it alls"is spoken from the perspective that everyone belives your God got use here in the first place. Not everyone will choose the same fantasy you did, whether or not you want to look at it as fantasy. Accept it, and live your life, love thy neighbor as thyself, worship your God as you choose. Why didn't our founding Fathers choose any of the MANY available eastern religions to build our nation? Are you aware of the 'barbaric' state of China and the orient during those years? Why Christianity? If you want to live an 'anti-Christian' life...be my guest! But, for the sake of public safety, lets have some rules and laws restricting people from harming or injuring others. AND...in that debate of HOW to legislate those laws, I believe it is fair and right to include Christians as well as non Christians. There is a game being played by the liberal God-haters: 'I can teach my wacky left-wing/political correct/socialistic/humanistic/homosexual/relativistic morals and ethics etc....to young impressionable kids. BUT!!! You CANNOT teach anything dealing with your Christianity and Christian worldview (under the guise of a misinterpreted First Amendment "separation church and State" hoax).... A convenient little 'secular scam' to keep the poor Christian man down! I will agree NOT to teach Christianity to young kids that don't want to learn it "IF" Liberals will agree NOT to teach their leftist "religion' to kids in schools and stop trying to legislate Christian opposition to their view as a 'hate crime'...DEAL????

Originally posted by Loghead Sounds as if it might be a bit cooler in Wisconsin. Maybe not. yep...I live in the VERY northern part of the state and it is solid trees and lakes...and that is it! About 85 today...a little humid...not bad...

Originally posted by CheeseMustDie man and {censored} that freedom of religion this country was built on, completely bull{censored} ideal that was. WORSHIP THE LORD! your name and avatar rule!!! but.....I disagree with your post

Originally posted by Loghead Not much. nice avatar!...I was actually in San-ber-Dino last week...a big ugly desert...back in the good ol' N-woods now!

Originally posted by Loghead That's what you're trying to do. Why do you need something pinned to the wall? metaphorically...hey L-Head wassup?

Originally posted by indespise And how do you define those who belive the bible is infallible truth? A particular denomination, maybe? The Amish, perhaps? Evangelicals...I believe it was a Gallup pole @2003 or so...

Originally posted by 23miles Did you learn this {censored} in Latham, or have you moved to the Capital District from somewhere else??? Do you really think you have the right to criticize other people for the way they live?? The lifestyle choices of other citizens don't bother me at all. What bothers me is that nitwits like you get all hot an bothered about this stuff and don't seem to mind the fact the government doesn't seem to believe that american citizens actually need basic rights rights: no more knocking and announcing before the police carsh through your door, no right to privacy, no whistle-blower protections, no right of habeus corpus, no need for due process, no right of property ownership so that your local government can claim emminent domain of you property for sale to a private company. If I were you I start hollering loud and long about these current twistings of our old fashion America. Wake up and smell the {censored}ing coffee and stop feeling holier than thou over queer people. why don't you stop beating up on non-queer' people...bronxo-Bully. (hypocrite)

Originally posted by DirtyBird I dont mind that Christians try to live by their Christian moral code... What upsets me is how vehemently Christian want their moral code to be THE moral code. This push to legislate Christian morality into law. This is just not fair to the rest of us. This isn't accurate. Actually it is backward. The only thing our secular society seems to NOT tolerate is Christianity. Did you go to school?.... A history lesson your left-wing liberal God-hating teacher probably didn't teach you.... Our founding Fathers (though most weren't outright Christians or rather Deists) understood the importance of a foundational and stable moral code. Funny how they ALL agreed on the Christian Bible to follow....I have DOZENS and DOZENS of quotes from Jeffereson, Franklin, Henry, Hancock etc...stating that our country will FAIL if it strays from sound faith in the Christian God....they respected the Bible so much they FRAMED our Constitution and Bill of Rights from it's language. There is a reason and definition for 'LIBERTY' and it's basis is espoused NO OTHER PLACE but in the Bible, our ORIGINS as a nation are strickly Biblical...what alot of you young 'know-it-alls' are actually saying is: "Thanks for starting us up and getting us this far God, but, we can take it from here.." I would be MORE than happy to move to a state where Christianity ruled and allow for non-Christians to legislate their own 'morality'...I just don't want to be subject to liberal shifting situational (political correct) ethics and moral relativism...you want to see a real arguement? try discussing morality with a group of people that are moral relativists...no foundation...no standard...like trying to pin jello to the wall...

Originally posted by charliedango I thought I made it pretty clear before. A debate over gay marriage is useless because as society evolves it will be accepted into the mainstream. Resistance to this is a futile endeavor because it's not in sync with the changing times. That's not what you want to know though, is it? You want to know how I feel about homosexuality and gay marriage. You want to know if you should attack my opinion or support it based solely on my personal viewpoint on the matter. Well here it comes... I've never been close enough to anyone homosexual to say whether or not if it's genetic or just a lifestyle choice. With every fiber of my heterosexual being I oppose homosexuality because I cannot fathom being attracted to someone of the same sex as me. I can go the rest of my life with or without homosexuals in this world and not give it another thought. I know a lot of gay people and some members of my wife's family are gay, but I don't avoid them because of it. It costs me too much to put distance between me and the people I don't agree with. I don't actively protest the homosexual lifestyle, even though I don't agree with it. People are entitled to live their own lives and do as they feel. Who am I to tell someone else how to live? I do what I feel is right and I try my best to live happily. If I had a gay son or daughter, I wouldn't disown them. It would be just one of the many obstacles to overcome throughout life that would result in my changing frame of mind. I would evolve beyond the person I was before. That's my persepctive on that. I hope that makes more sense than the last 5 posts I've dedicated to this thread. I got ya now thanks....I agree with most of your post...we aren't that different at all.

Originally posted by Loghead It thinks!!! Oh my God! I never would have suspected. It was a temporary breakdown....I won't let it happen again!

Originally posted by charliedango So God gave us free will so he could be sure he was loved and that it wasn't forced? It makes me uncomfortable to think that God would create all of existence just to make himself feel better about himself. Actually, I'd prefer to believe that God doesn't resign himself to the emotional frailty we as humans sometimes possess. A long time ago I lost faith in the church because what I sought could not be found there. I was displeased with the level of immaturity I experienced on a daily level and placed my hope in the fact that God's teachings brought along with it an enlightemnment that would one day overcome childish ways. My hopes were shattered when I discovered that the elders of my church behaved in the same manner as the children at my school. These men of faith were no better than my schoolmates. I was extremely let down by that. Throughout life I've discovered more and more that there is no difference between childhood and adulthood as I once believed there was. I found that even the oldest and supposedly wisest people on this earth are still capable of acting like complete babies. To me, God represents a creation beyond our tangible reasoning. God isn't a manipulator, or a deceiver. God doesn't play by the same rules as man, that's what makes him God, so why do so many people believe that he is just like us and capable of the same childish behavior? I don't know. I don't pretend to know why God gave us free will, but I'm very certain in the fact that no one else knows either. So we put 'FAITH' toward that endeavor. My church experience, sadly isn't much different than yours...I cannot escape the truth claims of the bible though,... the church may be disfunctional but Jesus is still LORD.

Originally posted by doggage5050 Christianity is not about technicalities All of you looking at technicalities and pointing fingers, on both sides, have a lot of learning and growing up to do. what's your opinion? please....help us out! you seem to come from a place of superior authority.

Originally posted by Ultrahighgain I'm just sayin' I guess I'm braggin'....a little...