attn: I apologize for this (politics inside)

[Craggin]

Originally posted by 17 Tubes How about when we liberated Kuwait. You can say it was for whatever reason...but why in the hell didn't we bulldoze Iraq THEN?

 

 

That wasn't the mission, and we would've destroyed the coalition. Remember, the coalition was comprised of a lot of Arab nations, and actually protected Israel while Iraq shot SCUDs at them.

 

But yes, the Generals who went in to negotiate the peace treaty with Iraq did a horrendous job, essentially letting Sadam stay armed.

[Urban Ghandi]

Originally posted by Craggin Sure...and if that doesn't work we can bomb them into submission.

Hey...not saying its a bad idea....I just wanted some additional ideas (hence the "next").

I do think you're forgetting the part about radical Islam wanting to kill all non-muslims.

Think about it: How do you reason with a man (or people) who is/are getting divine messages from heaven telling them to kill non-muslims???

I think you know the answer...

[17 Tubes]

Originally posted by draelyc A) Classrooms exist in the real world. Get over yourself. B) Logic IS fixed -- by its very nature. Do the rules of mathematics change from person to person? C) You're being asked to look at the situation at hand from other people's and other culture's perspectives; you're refusing, and now you're criticizing others for their unwillingness to see things from others' points of view? Noice.

When did I say that classroom do not exist in the reall world. ANother of your made-up areguments shot DOWN.


Don't pretend the classroom, especillay YOURS! is the real world. If you think so, it is the root of YOUR problem.


Oh...*I'M* the one here that can't see other people's culture?

Right Chris, right. Whatever you say makes it true.


Logic is NOT "fixed". Only in the books pal.

The Middle East extremists are using their form of logic. They...must?... think it is perfectly logical to strap a bomb to a child's back to blow up a crowded buss or plaza.

According to YOUR logic...maybe YOU would say they only THINK it is logical?


Does it matter? Sure, there are textbook forms of logic. But in the {don't look now!)...."real"... world, everyone follows their OWN brand.

[Craggin]

Originally posted by Urban Ghandi Hey...not saying its a bad idea....I just wanted some additional ideas (hence the "next"). I do think you're forgetting the part about radical Islam wanting to kill all non-muslims.

And I think you know less about radical Islam than you think.

[17 Tubes]

Originally posted by Craggin That wasn't the mission, and we would've destroyed the coalition. Remember, the coalition was comprised of a lot of Arab nations, and actually protected Israel while Iraq shot SCUDs at them. But yes, the Generals who went in to negotiate the peace treaty with Iraq did a horrendous job, essentially letting Sadam stay armed.

 

 

I totallyunderstand what you say.

 

What I meant was that if we were so evil, hell bent on oil and conquest, it would have HAPPENED RIGHT THEN.

[Urban Ghandi]

Originally posted by Craggin And I think you know less about radical Islam than you think.

At least you're thinking now....it's a start.

[Craggin]

Originally posted by Urban Ghandi At least you're thinking now....it's a start.

 

 

Up until this post, I was thinking you might have had something interesting to add to this discussion.

[guitar shmoe]

Originally posted by Craggin Sure...and if that doesn't work we can bomb them into submission.

Now your talkin!!!!

[guitar shmoe]

Originally posted by 17 Tubes And he's teaching our kids? Especially with the hideous attitude? One of the things a professor should teach is an open mind. Here are a few quotes form wise men ...and women!...that seem to be unfathomably lost upon our esteemed Professor:

Please ....please...please don't tell me that 'draelyc' is a teacher/professor...

I guess, in retrospect, it makes perfect sense....

parading around with a bit of intellectual pomp and pride...

shame on me!

I should have recognized the symptoms earlier... ...

Most of my best friends are teachers/professors....and hold doctorates and masters degrees in their fields, and I never have any issues with them concerning discussions of logic and morality....but with draelyc, man...

[DirtyBird]

Draelyc, just give up.

The 2-party system is permanently turning us all against each other, it's practically a religion. There's no way any of us are going to change each other's minds.

[draelyc]

Originally posted by Craggin However, regarding dealing with "terrorists", fighting ideologies with weapons is just plain stupid.

+ eleventy-billion!

If we really want to fight an ideology effectively, we *must* understand how that ideology evolved, what informs it in the present, and (perhaps most importantly) what material and cultural circumstances make that ideology so powerfully attractive to so many people.

Simply dismissing the ideology by saying "they're crazy" or "they're jealous" or "they hate us" solves nothing -- and significantly increases the danger such idealists pose to us.

(That last bit isn't directed at anyone specifically in this thread; those are just generic versions of various conservative viewpoints that have been expressed to me over the past several years regarding fighting terrorism.)

[draelyc]

Originally posted by Urban Ghandi Hahaha...no, I'm saying you stand idle on the sidelines and let the political lanscape get chewed up and then you come in and attempt to clean it up and smooth it out with your knowledge and beliefs.

Uh... I wouldn't do that... I mean, I like my father....






(Smothers Brothers fans may catch that one... )

[draelyc]

Here's where the rose-tinted shades come in handy, eh?

Originally posted by guitar shmoe let's see: Totalitarian murderous government toppled (check)

At what cost in human lives, human suffering, and sheer carnage (not to mention $$$)?

Compare the carnage going under under that toppled regime to that which has become the norm since...

Totalitarian Dictator toppled (check)

Creating the chaos of a dagerous power vacuum, allowing for a nightmare of insurgency and providing both breeding and training grounds for whole new generations of terrorists...

And it ought to go without saying the number of WORSE totalitarian dictators we've left UNTOUCHED whilst foolishly and *needlessly* engaging this one....

Totalitarian leaders killed or jailed (check)

See note above about chaos...

Subjugated citizens liberated from murderous dictator (check)

And liberated from food, shelter, stability, safety -- not to mention liberated from basic human rights....

Let me pause here to remind those too dim to see it that my comments here are not, in ANY IMAGINABLE WAY, "supporting terrorism" or even remotely suggesting that Saddam was some sort of "good" guy. NOBODY is disputing that Saddam was "bad."

But at the same time, no REASONABLE person can dispute that what we have done, taken altogether, is, as Dubya described, a "catastrophic success."

BENEVOLENT style of democratic govt. established (check)

That seems to be in some dispute....

And even if it weren't, again, REASONABLE people must ask "at what cost?" How benevolent can it be, if it were brought about by horrific acts of atrocity? "Don't worry -- this torture is for your own good," right?

People having FREEDOM to decide and vote for govt. (check)

Again, in dispute -- how much freedom can there be, when thugs beat and threaten people who try to vote, for example?

Food, medicine, doctors, shelter, jobs and countless other humanitarian aid (check)

Which is in such dire need there BECAUSE WE BLEW UP THEIR COUNTRY!!!

on and on and on I can go...I can go into MUCH MORE detail cause it's there IF you want to 'SEE' it....

It's interesting that you bring up the concept of choosing what to see. I can see perfectly well the "good" things being done over there. Just like I can see the "good" commercials that RJ Reynolds Tobacco puts on t.v. encouraging kids not to smoke. But those commercials, while good, don't change the fact that THE COMPANY STILL MAKES AND SELLS HARMFUL CIGARETTES!!!

In the same way, whatever "good" we're going MUST be put in perspective with the horrific devastation WE have wreaked upon that land and her people.

Choosing not to see that is tatamount to choosing ignorance -- one of the greatest sins imaginable, for civilized human beings.

you blind donkey! You choose to focus and expand/exploit the VERY SMALL PERCENTAGE of negative

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaha.

that is happening due to corrupt American soldiers (a few) and the unfortunate collateral damages of war (always a reality)

Right -- that's always a reality with war -- and that's EXACTLY WHAT WE SHOULD HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT BEFORE LAUNCHING AN ATTACK!!!

You act like it was inevitable -- but WE DIDN'T HAVE TO ATTACK!!!

...and ignore the very real and positive things that are liberating people over there...what a 'strange' fool you are.

Not as strange as mistaking conquest and domination for "liberation."

How would you like to be "liberated" by another country? Ever thought about that?

[draelyc]

Originally posted by 17 Tubes See...right here is just a sliver of the problem. When in any way shape or form did I say "John Kerry "*supports*" bin Laden?" I never even hinted.

Originally posted by 17 Tubes No...they keep blowing up PEOPLE. Citizens. Either in punishment for supporting the reigning regime, or as an incentive to oust the regime and install who the terrorists want, like Kerry for example.

That's what you said. Seems to me -- especially given the views you've expressed on Kerry in other threads -- that your "hint" is clear. If I misread you, I apologize. I don't *think* that I did, but if I did, I'm sorry.

I find it interesting that, at times like this, you *insist* on literal, verbatim readings, ignoring the concept of subtext, insinuation, implication, etc., yet when *I* draw your attention to the literal meanings of words, you attack me personally and deride me in the most hostile way. Hmmm...

Yet there you are arguing against it.

I called it like I saw it. Again, if I misread you, I apologize.

I never said aything like that and you'll have to show me a quote where you think I did.

Done and done, and commented on, as well.

This happens quite frequently, but in your blind quest for mental supremecy, you don't seem to be able to see it.

Ah, the personal attack. Wouldn't have felt like a man if you didn't do that, would you?

So yeah....whatever professor.

And an attack on the educated. That just shrieks maturity & self-confidence.

[draelyc]

Originally posted by 17 Tubes Yeah...the zamboni that is a little too quick on the trigger. So hard up to shoot other people down, can't even read and comrehend what people say. And he's teaching our kids? Especially with the hideous attitude? The great Zaomboni that will ice you over, because dammitt, he's right and any disagreement, no matter how accurate or from whatpoint of view, is pathetically uniformed and horiffcily illogical. One of the things a professor should teach is an open mind. Here are a few quotes form wise men ...and women!...that seem to be unfathomably lost upon our esteemed Professor: "To know is to know that you know nothing. Thats is the true meaning of knowledge." "Wisdom ceases to be wisdom when it becomes too proud to weep, too grave to laugh, and too self-full to seek other than itself" "Be humble, if thou would'st attain to Wisdom. Be humbler still, when Wisdom thou hath mastered" "To know when to be generous and when firm

[draelyc]

Originally posted by 17 Tubes Sorry guys really. I'm looking for a particular quote and I don't seem tohave the wisdom to findit. However, I keep stumbling upon other, wise words. I can't help myself!: "Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding." "There is a difference between happiness and wisdom: he that thinks himself the happiest man is really so; but he that thinks himself the wisest is generally the greatest fool. " "Wisdom is learning what to overlook." "Even wisdom has to yield to self-interest." How about this one?: "Lord, give us the wisdom to utter words that are gentle and tender, for tomorrow we may have to eat them." Well {censored}, I can't finthe quote. SOmething about knoweldge is knowinghstuff, wisdom is knowing when to use it?....dammitt! Here's the closest I could find: J.D. Anderson "Knowledge is not wisdom, unless used wisely."

Oh no!!! Draelyc's trying to make me think again, and it HURTS!!!

[draelyc]

Originally posted by 17 Tubes How about when we liberated Kuwait.

After we told Saddam we wouldn't interfere in his local dispute?

You can say it was for whatever reason...but why in the hell didn't we bulldoze Iraq THEN?

Because the leadership then, although every bit as morally bankrupt as now, was not nearly so GALATCIALLY STUPID!

Then we let the UN and Saddam stroke each others balls for 12 years.

You expect to be taken seriously as an adult, and you believe in fairytales like this?

We also pushed for Palestinian and Israeli peace, several times.

Yes, we did -- under completely different leadership paradigms than are in place now. You can hardly credit the *current* leadership with the benevolent efforts of people like Carter & Clinton. And even so, didn't we have something to do with forcefully creating the Israeli state in the first place? My history's a little hazy there -- double check me on that, anyone?

If the Middle East extremists were truely interested in peace and benevelonce...it would have happened by now.

Right -- it has NOTHING TO DO WITH US AND OUR BEHAVIOR, it's all on them, yeah?

[draelyc]

Originally posted by 17 Tubes When did I say that classroom do not exist in the reall world. ANother of your made-up areguments shot DOWN.

Really? Hmmm:

Originally posted by 17 Tubes Indeed. Peopel can't seem to look at the problem from others perspective. SOME people feel that EVRYONE uses the same..."logic" that they employ. As if logic is always a standard, a rule, an equation. Fixed. Not so. MAybe in the classroom, but not in the real world.

**You're** the one making an exclusive distinction between the classroom and the so-called real world. I hate to break it to you, but there's only ONE WORLD.

Try to remember what you've said before you snap at me next time, 'kay?

Don't pretend the classroom, especillay YOURS! is the real world. If you think so, it is the root of YOUR problem.

Man, I didn't even need to find the earlier quote -- YOU JUST DID IT AGAIN HERE! How do you keep so many contradictory "beliefs" in your muddled skull all at one time?

Btw, when have you ever been in my classroom? So what the hell do you know about it? Or do you have some super-secret channel that gives you access to hidden truth, like you constantly accuse me of?

Oh...*I'M* the one here that can't see other people's culture?

Apparently -- look at your posts!

Right Chris, right. Whatever you say makes it true.

No, you've got it backwards again. If it's true, I say it. My saying it doesn't cause it to be true -- I look for the truth, and say that, instead of saying what I know to be false. If I find out I was wrong, I correct myself, because again what's important is the truth, not myself.

Logic is NOT "fixed".

"Just because you say that doesn't make it true."

So, here's another vocabulary word you don't know and can't seem to understand.

Only in the books pal.

Where do you think the logic in the logic textbooks came from? (Duhr!)

The Middle East extremists are using their form of logic. They...must?... think it is perfectly logical to strap a bomb to a child's back to blow up a crowded buss or plaza. According to YOUR logic...maybe YOU would say they only THINK it is logical?

What the hell are you talking about? You've devolved into babbling again.

Listen -- if we want to defeat terrorism, we have to understand what *causes* it. That takes logic, reason, and intelligent analysis from more than one cultural perspective.

Yes, there are REASONS that some people become terrorists. If we want to prevent that, we *have* to understand what those reasons are, first.

It's really very simple, mang.

Does it matter? Sure, there are textbook forms of logic. But in the {don't look now!)...."real"... world, everyone follows their OWN brand.

Logic has "brands," now.

I'm not going to lecture you again about just making up whatever random definitions you want to for any old word that catches your fancy...

[draelyc]

Originally posted by 17 Tubes I totallyunderstand what you say. What I meant was that if we were so evil, hell bent on oil and conquest, it would have HAPPENED RIGHT THEN.

Different leaders "in charge"...

[draelyc]

Originally posted by DirtyBird Draelyc, just give up. The 2-party system is permanently turning us all against each other, it's practically a religion. There's no way any of us are going to change each other's minds.

Yeah, I know. It's more about a tiny effort to inject a bit of truth into a morass of jingoistic b.s., but even that's probably a foolish endeavor....

[DirtyBird]

Originally posted by draelyc Yeah, I know. It's more about a tiny effort to inject a bit of truth into a morass of jingoistic b.s., but even that's probably a foolish endeavor....

Every time you hit a nerve they gotta remind you about OMG TERRORISM 911 AND {censored} OMG!

[draelyc]

Originally posted by DirtyBird Every time you hit a nerve they gotta remind you about OMG TERRORISM 911 AND {censored} OMG!

Pretty soon, I'm gonna be the "infidel" whom they have to bomb... ... Hey!

[guitar shmoe]

Originally posted by draelyc + eleventy-billion! If we really want to fight an ideology effectively, we *must* understand how that ideology evolved, what informs it in the present, and (perhaps most importantly) what material and cultural circumstances make that ideology so powerfully attractive to so many people. Simply dismissing the ideology by saying "they're crazy" or "they're jealous" or "they hate us" solves nothing -- and significantly increases the danger such idealists pose to us. (That last bit isn't directed at anyone specifically in this thread; those are just generic versions of various conservative viewpoints that have been expressed to me over the past several years regarding fighting terrorism.)

It isn't that I (we) are soooo stupid that we don't understand the concept of 'ideology' and the historical implications there-in...at the end of the day: "ideas have consequences"

and, a teenage uneducated whack-job terrorist with an AK47 and 2 banana clips WILL defeat a professor with a mind full of reconciliatory ideas on the stage of REALITY...EVERY TIME!!!

I remember watching the news when the 'war on terror' broke a few years ago....a group of college professors from Cal Berkeley were wanting to 'discuss and negotiate' (on the behalf of America)with Saddam (and Al-Qaida) to avoid war...when interrogated further the professors admitted that they were uncomfortable with the concept of "unintelligence potentially prevailing over the educated/intelligent using weapons instead of intellect"...it occured to me then that these professors could not reconcile a world where a kid with no education and a gun TRUMPS a professor with a stack of Doctorates...It was driving them crazy that their 'intellectual prowess' was of no consequence or effect to these uneducated psycho whack jobs....

it also occured to me that these professors have COMPLETE control within the realm of their University (tenure..) to mandate and pontificate THEIR ideology (where they gain great arrogance I might add...) unhindered....so, when they look out beyond the borders of their cheesy University control they realize they aren't accepted or taken as seriously in the world where they cannot impose their 'tenure' status....ie: they have no control.....this drives them CRAZY....that's why we turn on the evening TV and watch (some of) these college professors freak out and go on emotional rants....

Just because professors can play GOD on a University campus does not qualify their experience as pragmatic world problem solvers....

Whacked out terrorist w/ AK47 and 2 banana clips VS. College Professor with a pompous ass arrogant 'ideology' that he thinks will 'FIX' the world....stay tuned...(my money is on the kid with the machine gun )

college professor idea has FAILED!....NEXT!

[Craggin]

Guitar shmoe, I think you're missing the point. (Correct me if I'm wrong...) Using guns to fight an ideology will lose every time...history has proven that, time and again. In this instance (and I'll use your post as an example), rather than squaring up a kid with an AK against a professor, I would argue that isn't a fair analogy on how to solve the problem of terrorism. You would argue (again, I'm assuming) that to defeat it you'd meet it head on...guns vs. guns. I'm not suggesting (nor have I in any of my posts) that we sit around the campfire cooking smores, but rather examine the real problem or problems that led up to this mess and try to address them in the future. IMHO, that is the only way to really prevent further attacks. Simply "fighting back" doesn't work, it only adds to the anger and frustration of that uneducated teenage kid with an AK and 2 clips...and then they go out and recruit more angry teenage kids to do the same. Bombing a terrorist camp has proven to be ineffective, all it does is provide a great story for the evening news and helps some people go to bed at night feeling like we "kicked terrorism's ass"...when in fact, we just helped to solidify a call to arms against us. Believe me, I'm not suggesting that we do nothing...really, I'm not...military retaliation is futile without addressing the deeper issues at hand. No military campaign can ever be successful in the long term without the fundamental backing of the people we are "liberating". We can literally bomb them into one big pile of salt, all we'll do is displace them into another region of the world from which they'll form another base of operations and improve their technique.

[guitar shmoe]

Originally posted by draelyc Here's where the rose-tinted shades come in handy, eh? At what cost in human lives, human suffering, and sheer carnage (not to mention $$$)? Compare the carnage going under under that toppled regime to that which has become the norm since... Creating the chaos of a dagerous power vacuum, allowing for a nightmare of insurgency and providing both breeding and training grounds for whole new generations of terrorists... And it ought to go without saying the number of WORSE totalitarian dictators we've left UNTOUCHED whilst foolishly and *needlessly* engaging this one.... See note above about chaos... And liberated from food, shelter, stability, safety -- not to mention liberated from basic human rights.... Let me pause here to remind those too dim to see it that my comments here are not, in ANY IMAGINABLE WAY, "supporting terrorism" or even remotely suggesting that Saddam was some sort of "good" guy. NOBODY is disputing that Saddam was "bad." But at the same time, no REASONABLE person can dispute that what we have done, taken altogether, is, as Dubya described, a "catastrophic success." That seems to be in some dispute.... And even if it weren't, again, REASONABLE people must ask "at what cost?" How benevolent can it be, if it were brought about by horrific acts of atrocity? "Don't worry -- this torture is for your own good," right? Again, in dispute -- how much freedom can there be, when thugs beat and threaten people who try to vote, for example? Which is in such dire need there BECAUSE WE BLEW UP THEIR COUNTRY!!! It's interesting that you bring up the concept of choosing what to see. I can see perfectly well the "good" things being done over there. Just like I can see the "good" commercials that RJ Reynolds Tobacco puts on t.v. encouraging kids not to smoke. But those commercials, while good, don't change the fact that THE COMPANY STILL MAKES AND SELLS HARMFUL CIGARETTES!!! In the same way, whatever "good" we're going MUST be put in perspective with the horrific devastation WE have wreaked upon that land and her people. Choosing not to see that is tatamount to choosing ignorance -- one of the greatest sins imaginable, for civilized human beings. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaha. Right -- that's always a reality with war -- and that's EXACTLY WHAT WE SHOULD HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT BEFORE LAUNCHING AN ATTACK!!! You act like it was inevitable -- but WE DIDN'T HAVE TO ATTACK!!! Not as strange as mistaking conquest and domination for "liberation." How would you like to be "liberated" by another country? Ever thought about that?

Here draelyc.....why don't you criticize GOD for the carnage HE will do to humanity....go ahead....judge HIM!......looks like alot of atrocious carnage to me? maybe you should counsel GOD as to how to conduct war against evil? Hmmmmm, yes, indeed, I think GOD is in need of your superior wisdom! Do you think you are morally superior to ALMIGHTY GOD?....I'm sure God will acquiesce to your 'situation ethics'...He is always subject to that!

11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
17And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great."

19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.