Members guitar shmoe Posted July 27, 2006 Members Share Posted July 27, 2006 Originally posted by Craggin Guitar shmoe, I think you're missing the point. (Correct me if I'm wrong...) Using guns to fight an ideology will lose every time...history has proven that, time and again. In this instance (and I'll use your post as an example), rather than squaring up a kid with an AK against a professor, I would argue that isn't a fair analogy on how to solve the problem of terrorism. You would argue (again, I'm assuming) that to defeat it you'd meet it head on...guns vs. guns. I'm not suggesting (nor have I in any of my posts) that we sit around the campfire cooking smores, but rather examine the real problem or problems that led up to this mess and try to address them in the future. IMHO, that is the only way to really prevent further attacks. Simply "fighting back" doesn't work, it only adds to the anger and frustration of that uneducated teenage kid with an AK and 2 clips...and then they go out and recruit more angry teenage kids to do the same. Bombing a terrorist camp has proven to be ineffective, all it does is provide a great story for the evening news and helps some people go to bed at night feeling like we "kicked terrorism's ass"...when in fact, we just helped to solidify a call to arms against us. Believe me, I'm not suggesting that we do nothing...really, I'm not...military retaliation is futile without addressing the deeper issues at hand. No military campaign can ever be successful in the long term without the fundamental backing of the people we are "liberating". We can literally bomb them into one big pile of salt, all we'll do is displace them into another region of the world from which they'll form another base of operations and improve their technique. crag, we can't 'psychoanalyze' these people...that has been tried...it has ended with carnage. I'm sorry, when people are reduced to 'savagery' we must first DEFEND then attempt to 'convert' as many as possible as a secondary tactic. They believe we are weak because we value human life WAY TOO MUCH (according to them..) they say it will be our final weakness/downfall...that is their 'strategy' ....to TERRORIZE and MURDER with extreme violence as to produce a cowering effect in out nation where we (eventually) succumb to their savagery.... if we sit here and try to 'intellectualize' or 'psychoanalize' we are playing to their strategy...we already understand their history, we understand their strategy and their resolve to execute that strategy...if we don't PRAGMATICALLY confront this ATTACK on our citizens they will eventually defeat us. Physical violence will not cease, BECAUSE....they are the ones that are initializing and sustaining it! we must stop them, or be their victims....there are no other options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Craggin Posted July 27, 2006 Members Share Posted July 27, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe crag, we can't 'psychoanalyze' these people...that has been tried...it has ended with carnage... I would argue that just the opposite is true, in every instance that it has been met with physical or military violence, that strategy has failed. Everytime. I have never seen an instance in recorded history where an ideology has been eradicated with force. Woops, I'm wrong...in Vietnam capitalism was...in the Golan Heights, Gaza Strip, etc., terrorists were driven from there and everyone lived in peace. See what I'm getting at? Actually, your post (several pages ago) about "killing them all" (paraphrased), theoretically would work. In fact, if we were to use force to fight terrorism, that is exactly what we'd have to do...literally. Every man, woman, and child so that there was nobody left to honor their fallen brethren and become a martyr. Obviously, that solution isn't very practical...so, what next? I never suggested we 'psychoanalyze' anyone (those are your words and assumptions...not mine)...I did suggest that our administration, and administrations that follow, do much more research into the political cause and effect of the region. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DirtyBird Posted July 27, 2006 Members Share Posted July 27, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe Here draelyc.....why don't you criticize GOD for the carnage HE will do to humanity....go ahead....judge HIM!......looks like alot of atrocious carnage to me? maybe you should counsel GOD as to how to conduct war against evil? Hmmmmm, yes, indeed, I think GOD is in need of your superior wisdom! Do you think you are morally superior to ALMIGHTY GOD?....I'm sure God will acquiesce to your 'situation ethics'...He is always subject to that!11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. 17And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great." 19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. Lord Xenu will kick your god's ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Corso2 Posted July 27, 2006 Members Share Posted July 27, 2006 Errr....I know you guys don't like actually looking at the root causes of terrorism if there is any hint that our leaders have ever made a stupid decision, but....The single most overlooked truth about the war on terror is that the radical Islam that you rightly condemn as fanatical and unreasonable was actively encouraged by the West during the Cold War as a defense against Godless Communism's spread into the region. So some things that seem like good ideas at the time do bite us on the ass sometimes. All we are asking is that we look at those things carefully and honestly, learn from them, and try really hard to consider the effects our actions will have farther down the line.At this point, it is completely reasonable to conclude that our current leadership is not necessarily the right leadership for that type of long-term thinking. Personally, I am getting so tired of saying "see, I told you so" that I don't bother anymore...it seems that our conservatives are just as impossible to reason with as the Muslim conservatives are. So I think we need to start bombing the Red States. That's a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Corso2 Posted July 27, 2006 Members Share Posted July 27, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe Here draelyc.....why don't you criticize GOD for the carnage HE will do to humanity....go ahead....judge HIM!......looks like alot of atrocious carnage to me? maybe you should counsel GOD as to how to conduct war against evil? Hmmmmm, yes, indeed, I think GOD is in need of your superior wisdom! Do you think you are morally superior to ALMIGHTY GOD?....I'm sure God will acquiesce to your 'situation ethics'...He is always subject to that!11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. 17And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great." 19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. Hey, here's one now! No turban, and a different Book, but basically Osama material. At least they get 72 virgins, though...if all you are offering is a lake of sulphur and dudes who shoot swords out of their mouths, I dunno.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 27, 2006 Members Share Posted July 27, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe It isn't that I (we) are soooo stupid that we don't understand the concept of 'ideology' and the historical implications there-in...at the end of the day: "ideas have consequences" and, a teenage uneducated whack-job terrorist with an AK47 and 2 banana clips WILL defeat a professor with a mind full of reconciliatory ideas on the stage of REALITY...EVERY TIME!!! A smart man is able to ensure that such a confrontation never takes place, unless it does so on *his* terms and from *his* position of strength. I remember watching the news when the 'war on terror' broke a few years ago....a group of college professors from Cal Berkeley were wanting to 'discuss and negotiate' (on the behalf of America)with Saddam (and Al-Qaida) to avoid war...when interrogated further the professors admitted that they were uncomfortable with the concept of "unintelligence potentially prevailing over the educated/intelligent using weapons instead of intellect"...it occured to me then that these professors could not reconcile a world where a kid with no education and a gun TRUMPS a professor with a stack of Doctorates...It was driving them crazy that their 'intellectual prowess' was of no consequence or effect to these uneducated psycho whack jobs.... it also occured to me that these professors have COMPLETE control within the realm of their University (tenure..) to mandate and pontificate THEIR ideology (where they gain great arrogance I might add...) unhindered....so, when they look out beyond the borders of their cheesy University control they realize they aren't accepted or taken as seriously in the world where they cannot impose their 'tenure' status....ie: they have no control.....this drives them CRAZY....that's why we turn on the evening TV and watch (some of) these college professors freak out and go on emotional rants.... Just because professors can play GOD on a University campus does not qualify their experience as pragmatic world problem solvers.... Whacked out terrorist w/ AK47 and 2 banana clips VS. College Professor with a pompous ass arrogant 'ideology' that he thinks will 'FIX' the world....stay tuned...(my money is on the kid with the machine gun ) college professor idea has FAILED!....NEXT! Actually, it hasn't been tried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 27, 2006 Members Share Posted July 27, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe Here draelyc.....why don't you criticize GOD for the carnage HE will do to humanity....go ahead....judge HIM!......looks like alot of atrocious carnage to me? maybe you should counsel GOD as to how to conduct war against evil? Hmmmmm, yes, indeed, I think GOD is in need of your superior wisdom! Do you think you are morally superior to ALMIGHTY GOD?....I'm sure God will acquiesce to your 'situation ethics'...He is always subject to that! You enjoy throwing out terms you don't understand?Boy, you've really blown some cerebral gaskets, haven't you? Seriously -- what the hell are you on about here?Do you actually conceive of God as some machine-gun toting, death-dealing supernatural hit-man?Listen, if you're not capable of discussing human affairs rationally -- and look at your posts -- you certainly aren't ready to discuss metaphysics yet. 11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. 17And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great." 19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. Any shaved-ape can cut & paste. It's pretty clear that you don't even begin to understand what it is you're quoting, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitar shmoe Posted July 27, 2006 Members Share Posted July 27, 2006 Originally posted by draelyc Any shaved-ape can cut & paste. It's pretty clear that you don't even begin to understand what it is you're quoting, though. sadly...or better 'unfortunately'...I understand much better than you will give me credit for.At the end of the day it is you that is morally and ethically convoluted.I certainly hope that people with your mindset DO NOT become leaders in our country. Our citizens will be in grave danger.I can see it now: a terrorist parading up and down the street with draelyc's severed head (filled with great and complex ideas mind you...), laughing and yelling: "is this your great American champion"!....these 'actions' have already transpired (with other's heads)...and the problem is only intensified as the terrorist begin to believe that we are truly 'weak and beatable'....so, I challenge you Mr. draelyc, go over there and put your own ass on the line using your own philosophy... ....go over and hug those terrorists, I'm sure their lives will change! (actually, I'm sure that I will be watching them parade your severed head around on cable tv news...). A Fool and his head are soon severed.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitar shmoe Posted July 27, 2006 Members Share Posted July 27, 2006 Originally posted by draelyc A smart man is able to ensure that such a confrontation never takes place, unless it does so on *his* terms and from *his* position of strength. so, I guess the Twin Towers were loaded with 5000 'dumb asses' that weren't 'smart' enough to fight on their terms?Are you 'really' this retarted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 27, 2006 Members Share Posted July 27, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe sadly...or better 'unfortunately'...I understand much better than you will give me credit for. At the end of the day it is you that is morally and ethically convoluted. How so? Please explain. I certainly hope that people with your mindset DO NOT become leaders in our country. Our citizens will be in grave danger.In grave danger of having no one to demonize & dehumanize & blame for all the evil in the world? Yawp, that's about it. I can see it now: a terrorist parading up and down the street with draelyc's severed head (filled with great and complex ideas mind you...), laughing and yelling: "is this your great American champion"!.... these 'actions' have already transpired (with other's heads)...and the problem is only intensified as the terrorist begin to believe that we are truly 'weak and beatable'.... so, I challenge you Mr. draelyc, go over there and put your own ass on the line using your own philosophy... ....go over and hug those terrorists, I'm sure their lives will change! (actually, I'm sure that I will be watching them parade your severed head around on cable tv news...). A Fool and his head are soon severed.... You haven't demonstrated any capacity to understand a philosophy, as this "challenge" underscores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DirtyBird Posted July 27, 2006 Members Share Posted July 27, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe so, I guess the Twin Towers were loaded with 5000 'dumb asses' that weren't 'smart' enough to fight on their terms? Are you 'really' this retarted? "OH NO HE MADE A POINT! I have to call him "retarted" and talk about 9/11!"I've given up rational arguments they don't work, so I've resorted to parody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 27, 2006 Members Share Posted July 27, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe so, I guess the Twin Towers were loaded with 5000 'dumb asses' that weren't 'smart' enough to fight on their terms? Are you 'really' this retarted? Are you really retarded enough to think that the people in the towers were responsible -- and not the United States government -- for defending themselves from terrorists? No, the "dumb asses," as you put it, were in the White House, not the Twin Towers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitar shmoe Posted July 27, 2006 Members Share Posted July 27, 2006 Originally posted by draelyc How so? Please explain. probably a waste of time, like unraveling a huge tangled ball of yarn....yet... You are convoluted morally and logically because your 'foundations' to your so called rationale are not accurate, you jump the fence of 'context' all over the place. The whole house of cards comes tumbling down if the foundation is not sure. You 'base' your ideology on erroneous assumptions that America is not addressing the KEY issues in the middle east (as you 'see' them) this 'criticism' however, assumes that you have access to equal or more information and intel than does our Military/Intelligence personel (which is NOT true...) and that (based on your OBVIOUS lack of 'intel') somehow, they are 'subject' to your criticism and ridicule (foolish pride on your part..)...you come to the discussion table with a handful of pennies and think you can take on the brightest and most successful team of military experts in the history of mankind (read Gen Schwartzkof's book...). You may not like it, but what our military has achieved in the last 12 years is unequaled in history. You are morally convoluted because you continue to point the JUDGMENT finger at America instead of the murderers we are trying to defeat...you continually want to exploit the VERY FEW problems and mistakes as American military practice (this, again just in't even close to being true...)...you are like the woman that marries the unrepentant serial killer in prison for murdering 50 women...ignoring the plight of his victims and his current state of evil and buying into this emotional notion that, somehow, the Serial Killer is the victim...you are a moral fool sir! I don't have enough time to unravel and 'fix' the rest of your 'bozo-the-clown' so called 'logic'... gotta business to run... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitar shmoe Posted July 27, 2006 Members Share Posted July 27, 2006 Originally posted by draelyc Are you really retarded enough to think that the people in the towers were responsible -- and not the United States government -- for defending themselves from terrorists? No, the "dumb asses," as you put it, were in the White House, not the Twin Towers. You act as if you possess the 'smarts' ...that, if you were in the White House at that time you would have prevented the attacks...due to your superior intellect....this, again, is pride and arrogance on your part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitar shmoe Posted July 27, 2006 Members Share Posted July 27, 2006 Originally posted by DirtyBird "OH NO HE MADE A POINT! I have to call him "retarted" and talk about 9/11!" I've given up rational arguments they don't work, so I've resorted to parody. stick around kid...you might learn something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Craggin Posted July 27, 2006 Members Share Posted July 27, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe You act as if you possess the 'smarts' ...that, if you were in the White House at that time you would have prevented the attacks...due to your superior intellect....this, again, is pride and arrogance on your part. I doubt that anyone sitting in the White House in Sept. 2001 could've prevented the attacks. (In spite of the rumors now that there were warnings that got ignored. I don't know if that is true or not...I'm hoping it isn't.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hawkeye17 Posted July 27, 2006 Members Share Posted July 27, 2006 Originally posted by FWAxeIbanez It helps to read sir, but, if you really are honestly lost or need something to get you interested in the short novel I typed up, I'm commenting on a T-Shirt I saw at the grocery store I work at, and I guess a trend that the shirt represents Lighten up man. It's a T-SHIRT! Yeah the analogies on it are stupid but there are alot of people(me included) who are disgusted by the Bush Administration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Craggin Posted July 27, 2006 Members Share Posted July 27, 2006 Originally posted by Hawkeye17 Lighten up man. It's a T-SHIRT! Yeah the analogies on it are stupid but there are alot of people(me included) who are disgusted by the Bush Administration. psssh, dude...that is so page 1....I mean, c'mon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitar shmoe Posted July 27, 2006 Members Share Posted July 27, 2006 Originally posted by Craggin I doubt that anyone sitting in the White House in Sept. 2001 could've prevented the attacks. (In spite of the rumors now that there were warnings that got ignored. I don't know if that is true or not...I'm hoping it isn't.) Some of my biggest problems with the complaints are:1) This (ass/ego) idea that liberals complaining about this present administration have enough information/intel to accurately judge it. (er, well,...THEY DON'T!)...HINT: liberal media news does NOT qualify as military/national security intel...(liberal arm chair experts.. aaaarrrrggg )2) This (retarted 'society says' morality) idea that Hezbollah/Al-Quida/terrorists are moral equivalents to Americans/Israelis because we both cause destruction....3) This erroneous idea (from liberal news ...yet again...) that our military experts and leaders are ignorant nim-com-poops, waging war because they aren't smart enough to do otherwise...(as if the critics ARE smart enough to do otherwise ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Craggin Posted July 27, 2006 Members Share Posted July 27, 2006 Newspapers of the world on the internet I've been frequenting this site for several years...every single day (sometimes not until after everyone in the house is asleep). I try to read papers from as many different countries as I can, regardless of whether or not I share the same political views/agendas as their respective governments. I figure between everything I get domestically and abroad, the truth lies somewhere in the middle and I can draw my own conclusions/opinions. (And if those conclusions/opinion are as informed as possible...well, then it was a good day.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 27, 2006 Members Share Posted July 27, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe probably a waste of time, like unraveling a huge tangled ball of yarn....yet... You are convoluted morally and logically because your 'foundations' to your so called rationale are not accurate, you jump the fence of 'context' all over the place. The whole house of cards comes tumbling down if the foundation is not sure. You 'base' your ideology on erroneous assumptions that America is not addressing the KEY issues in the middle east (as you 'see' them) this 'criticism' however, assumes that you have access to equal or more information and intel than does our Military/Intelligence personel (which is NOT true...) and that (based on your OBVIOUS lack of 'intel') somehow, they are 'subject' to your criticism and ridicule (foolish pride on your part..)... Now you're being absurd. If you really believe what you've written here, you are a traitor to the Constitution, I'm sad to say.At the least, you have zero concept of the obligations and responsibilities inherent in a democratic republic are, either for the citizen or the government.Hint: look up the concept of the "social contract." you come to the discussion table with a handful of pennies and think you can take on the brightest and most successful team of military experts in the history of mankind (read Gen Schwartzkof's book...).IIRC, Stormin' Norman was opposed to Dubya's conquest of Iraq... I could be wrong about that... but I don't think so. You may not like it, but what our military has achieved in the last 12 years is unequaled in history.That's absolutely true. But that does not in any way make those achievements GOOD or MORAL. If you think they do, then YOUR "logic" and "morality" are highly suspect. You are morally convoluted because you continue to point the JUDGMENT finger at America instead of the murderers we are trying to defeat...You have reading-comprehension problems, obviously. I don't CARE whose fault it is -- I just want to FIX THE PROBLEM.Now, even the slowest dullard can graps this concept: you cannot fix a problem if you don't know what's CAUSING it. You want to wear your rose-colored glasses and squeeze the trigger at the same time, fine. But how you can imagine that doing so will result in anything but more death, more atrocity, and more terrorism boggles the *thinking* mind! you continually want to exploit the VERY FEW problems and mistakes Even a single "problem" or "mistake" -- on the scale of what's happening in Iraq -- is CATASTROPHIC.You think the *number* of problems is the issue?Then you clearly don't understand what's at stake.And you certainly don't understand MORALITY, which you presume to lecture me about.Tell me, in your "morality," how many problems do a man's sins have to cause before those sins become "wrong"?A *moral* person will say that the number doesn't matter -- it's the rightness of the action that counts. **Any** other answer amounts to the "situational ethics" you've tried unsuccessfully to label me with as an insult (thus revealing that you don't even understand the terms you're using). as American military practice (this, again just in't even close to being true...)...You have "more better" info than I do? I never claimed to have any secret knowledge -- are you claiming to? If so, would you care to share?If not, then it really doesn't matter what you say "isn't true" -- I'm gonna go by what's reported and corroborated by multiple sources, rather than trust your highly suspect "word." you are like the woman that marries the unrepentant serial killer in prison for murdering 50 women...ignoring the plight of his victims and his current state of evil and buying into this emotional notion that, somehow, the Serial Killer is the victim...Ah, so you have no clue how to make a valid analogy, either! You think throwing out random, unrelated insults is somehow "proving" your case? Hahahaaha:D:D:D you are a moral fool sir!Glad to hear it, since I never claimed to be wise. But at least you admit that I'm moral (which, to my thinking, is the greater virtue). I don't have enough time to unravel and 'fix' the rest of your 'bozo-the-clown' so called 'logic'... gotta business to run... Yeah, that would require critical thinking and a clear perspective, either of which would force you to reconstruct your entire working-persona ... and who has that kind of time.You've been entertaining, though -- I'll give you that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members la0tsu Posted July 27, 2006 Members Share Posted July 27, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe Some of my biggest problems with the complaints are: 1) This (ass/ego) idea that liberals complaining about this present administration have enough information/intel to accurately judge it. (er, well,...THEY DON'T!)...HINT: liberal media news does NOT qualify as military/national security intel...(liberal arm chair experts.. aaaarrrrggg ) Yeah, but there have been plenty of people who have been in NSA, CIA and Military intel who have said that the information that has been presented by the White House was not accurate. Any opposing viewpoints were either culled out or summarily dismissed. That is not a healthy way to make decisions. I don't blame this all on Bush, though.But this is indicative of a larger point. I refuse to just trust my government blindly when it comes to matters as large as war. If you want me to support something that costly and with that many negative repercussions, you have to sell me on it. I was sold on Desert Storm and Afghanistan, so I'm not a pacifist. I was not sold on Iraq. It's not a matter of me not having access to the intel, it's a matter of me not being convinced that they did. 2) This (retarted 'society says' morality) idea that Hezbollah/Al-Quida/terrorists are moral equivalents to Americans/Israelis because we both cause destruction.... There's a difference between looking for an excuse and looking for an explanation. Trying to figure out what conditions would lead someone to commit a heinous act is looking for and explanation. This is a wise course of action, because it can give you information that helps prevent further incidents. It is not the same as saying that it's okay to commit heinous acts - that's looking for excuses. 3) This erroneous idea (from liberal news ...yet again...) that our military experts and leaders are ignorant nim-com-poops, waging war because they aren't smart enough to do otherwise...(as if the critics ARE smart enough to do otherwise ) I certainly don't think that they are nincompoops (I don't think you said I did - I'm just stating how I feel). BUT I do think that there are quite a few cynical bastards in the administration who will do anything to position themselves for elections. They are politicians, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Craggin Posted July 27, 2006 Members Share Posted July 27, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe Some of my biggest problems with the complaints are: 1) This (ass/ego) idea that liberals complaining about this present administration have enough information/intel to accurately judge it. (er, well,...THEY DON'T!)...HINT: liberal media news does NOT qualify as military/national security intel...(liberal arm chair experts.. aaaarrrrggg ) One point worth mentioning here...there were a handful of very qualified people formerly in Bush's administration that were extremely critical about our plans to invade Iraq. The highest ranking official within that group was Colin Powell...and I'd say he's pretty privy to classified material and able to dissect it. He made a very clumsy about face (which he addressed later) mainly because he was told to be more loyal. His "case for war" before the UN was kind of embarrassing. Notice that most (read "all") people that disagreed with the call to war are no longer in the administration? IMO, there are enough people that were "formerly in Bush's administration" to lead me to believe that there was a lot of intel that was either misinterpreted or ignored. I also recall a lot of Generals (who now appear to have retired) being interviewed on CNBC and various news outlets being highly critical of the decision to invade and/or of the tactics against terrorists. (Probably why they're retired.) My point is that one doesn't have to rely on the press as a source of their information...you can look at events, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 27, 2006 Members Share Posted July 27, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe You act as if you possess the 'smarts' ...that, if you were in the White House at that time you would have prevented the attacks...due to your superior intellect....this, again, is pride and arrogance on your part. Sigh. So many logical fallacies here... Where to start?First, if I point out that the people in the White House failed to do what it's their job and responsibility to do, that IN NO WAY makes any claim WHATSOEVER about my personal intelligence. For you to take it that way indicates you have the mentality of a four year old. Second, if a thing is stupid, the person who points out that stupidity is neither proud nor arrogant; he is merely pointing out an observation.Third, it has never been my job or responsibility to prevent a major terrorist attack. I didn't sign up for that job, I never wanted that job, and I never even remotely considered claiming that I'd be qualified for that job. BUT, George W. Bush *did* sign up for that job and *did* claim he was qualified for it. Now, HE dropped the ball, not I. If I point out that he dropped the ball, that's NOT saying that I would have caught it -- that ball wasn't meant for me to catch, anyway! He campaiged, he wanted that responsibility, HE SHOULD BE HELD RESPONSIBLE.*That* position is both LOGICAL and MORAL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 27, 2006 Members Share Posted July 27, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe stick around kid...you might learn something. He's got a better chance than some, though I hold out hope for you.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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