my lazy, missing school/truant teenager

[grumphh]

You can try to teach the child right from wrong all you want. You can preach it from the rafters 24/7. That does not change the fact that a child is a human being, and thus, has free will. The child can choose to heed your teachings, or choose to ignore it. Does teaching improve the odds that the child will act in the right instead of the wrong? Yes. Does it guarantee it? Good lord, no. The problem with your statement is that you stated it as fact. It's not. It's your opinion. It's wrong, but you're entitled have it, so feel free. Just because a child is taught something does not mean that child will act as such.

 

So then beating the child with a belt is ok because you have an opinion? Big man!

 

 

You know, if your teen kid steals a car and goes joyriding, that is not societys fault, that is you having failed totally to instill just a tiny bit of sense and responsibility into your kid.

[Mesa4x12er2]

 

You know, if your teen kid steals a car and goes joyriding, that is not societys fault, that is you having failed totally to instill just a tiny bit of sense and responsibility into your kid.

 

 

Also means he clearly wasn't taught that his actions will have consequences.

 

Mesa +1

grumphh 0

[Murdoch]

So then beating the child with a belt is ok because you have an opinion? Big man! You know, if your teen kid steals a car and goes joyriding, that is not societys fault, that is you having failed totally to instill just a tiny bit of sense and responsibility into your kid.

Again...WHERE did I say that I advocated hitting a child with a goddamned belt?? You know, if this conversation was had in person, and you called me a child abuser (as you basically are now) based on what I have said, you and I would be having some serious words. You're coming across not as the humanitarian you perceive yourself to be, but instead a throbbing sanctimonious prick.

[glenecho]

Watching grumphh getting all the HCAF e-toughguys' panties in a bunch is {censored}ing priceless.

[Mesa4x12er2]

Again...WHERE did I say that I advocated hitting a child with a goddamned belt?? You know, if this conversation was had in person, and you called me a child abuser (as you basically are now) based on what I have said, you and I would be having some serious words. You're coming across not as the humanitarian you perceive yourself to be, but instead a throbbing sanctimonious prick.

 

I think this is most likely because he IS a throbbing sanctimonious prick.

[grumphh]

 

Bull{censored}. There is most definitely a line.

 

 

Yes, i was wrong in saying that there is no line.

 

The line is where you hit your child.

(And we are not talking a smack on the behind when the kid in excitement/defiance tries to run across a heavily traficked road or similar - we are talking about deliberate corporal punishments of the sort advocated here.)

 

Once again - anyone who does not feel ashamed of using a position of power and physical dominance to inflict pain on a child is a pathetic loser.

 

If you can't even control your children, isn't that just because you can't even control yourself?

[grumphh]

Watching grumphh getting all the HCAF e-toughguys' panties in a bunch is {censored}ing priceless.

 

Toughguys?

They hit children.

 

'nuff said.

[Mesa4x12er2]

Watching grumphh getting all the HCAF e-toughguys' panties in a bunch is {censored}ing priceless.

 

Ok then. I wouldn't call watching a guy with lacking comprehension skills annoy us getting our panties in a bunch.

[grumphh]

 

Also means he clearly wasn't taught that his actions will have consequences. Mesa +1 grumphh 0

 

 

Whoa. Talk about comprehension fail.

 

Who do you suppose should have taught the kid that actions have consequences? The school? Society? Cartoons?

 

...or is it so that the only consequence you know about is a good beating?

[FrostByte]

grumphh = Dr. Phil

 

Only in the last decade or two has it not been acceptable to punish children by spanking. The last decade or two has also spawned the biggest group of {censored}tarded, self-centered, rebellious, etc... youths and it's only getting worse as laws, television, etc... cracks down harder on parents who hit their kids.

 

I got 1 spanking with a belt when I was young, after that I did what my parents told me till I became a teenager (minus an occasional minor {censored}-up or backtalk that got a slap in the mouth). {censored}ed up then, they took my guitar away and didn't let me leave the house. Again, that only happened once. My sister is 5 years younger than me, they didn't punish her as they did my brother and I, and she's a cold hearted, irresponsible, bitch. I credit that 100% to the difference in how we were disciplined.

 

I never felt my parents were too hard on me and they most certainly didn't beat me. There is a HUGE difference between a spanking and a beating. I have 2 children of my own, they get spanked when they're bad. Usually just a smack on the butt, a thump on the noggin, or a slap on the wrist. Just saying, "no" to a toddler does absolutely NOTHING.

 

As Mesa4x12er2 said, there most definitely IS a line and it definitely is NOT crossed the second you raise your hand to a child. Spanking is not violence.

[grumphh]

Again...WHERE did I say that I advocated hitting a child with a goddamned belt?? You know, if this conversation was had in person, and you called me a child abuser (as you basically are now) based on what I have said, you and I would be having some serious words. You're coming across not as the humanitarian you perceive yourself to be, but instead a throbbing sanctimonious prick.

 

Ah yes, from my days in the BDSM scene i remember that you can inflict quite a bit of exquisite pain with just your bare hands.

 

You are right, there is no need for using tools to beat a child, especially not if you first scare him {censored}less by letting him know what is going to happen

[Mesa4x12er2]

Whoa. Talk about comprehension fail. Who do you suppose should have taught the kid that actions have consequences? The school? Society? Cartoons? ...or is it so that the only consequence you know about is a good beating?

 

 

His parents should. But you are saying consequences don't matter it's all about what is right and wrong.

[Murdoch]

Ah yes, from my days in the BDSM scene i remember that you can inflict quite a bit of exquisite pain with just your bare hands. You are right, there is no need for using tools to beat a child, especially not if you first scare him {censored}less by letting him know what is going to happen

What makes your self-important, condescending tone even more ironic, and therefore so appropriate, is that I have NEVER laid my hands on a child. EVER.

[grumphh]

 

Just saying, "no" to a toddler does absolutely NOTHING.

 

 

Hurting them does absolutely nothing either. At that age they do not have the comprehension to equate their actions with consequences.

Patience is the only way out with a toddler. (And god knows, you need a lot of that if you have a slightly active one...)

 

All you do by hitting toddlers is priming them like pavlovskyan dogs.

 

And of course you teach them that the ones they love most and are totally dependent on have no qualms about hitting them - basically breaking their tiny little world into pieces.

 

 

Imagine feeling the joy of having your legs released from diapers and just kicking them about grinning with joy - and not noticing the words from daddys mouth that say "lie still". Just basic kids happiness.

And then *smack*, a hit to the butt - to the child a totally incomprehensible pain (no, toddlers don't connect kicking with the fact that we get all smeared in baby{censored}), just because the grownup couldn't restrain his frustration at the diaper changing not being so easy.

 

Pathetic.

[guitarbilly74]

It's funny because I just had this conversation with my 11 y.o. the other day:

 

"dad?"

 

"yes"

 

"do you think I'm a responsible person?"

 

"of course!"

 

"so when are you let me go to school by myself?"

 

"never"

 

~silence~

 

[grumphh]

 

What makes your self-important, condescending tone even more ironic, and therefore so appropriate, is that I have NEVER laid my hands on a child. EVER.

 

 

I can only say that that makes you more of a man than all of the proponents of hitting children in this thread would be if added up.

[grumphh]

His parents should. But you are saying consequences don't matter it's all about what is right and wrong.

 

Indeed! Consequences should not be what deter you from doing "bad" things. That should be your conscience.

And that is what good parents teach their kids.

 

To take an absurd example: I don't abstain from driving ruthlessly through our local pedestrian street on saturday mornings (crowded) because i am scared of going to jail for manslaughter but because i know that it is wrong to drive through crowds.

 

(Although i'd happily take my car through a crowd consisting of child beaters - then again, that wouldn't be wrong )

[Mesa4x12er2]

 

Imagine feeling the joy of having your legs released from diapers and just kicking them about grinning with joy - and not noticing the words from daddys mouth that say "lie still". Just basic kids happiness. And then *smack*, a hit to the butt - to the child a totally incomprehensible pain (no, toddlers don't connect kicking with the fact that we get all smeared in baby{censored}), just because the grownup couldn't restrain his frustration at the diaper changing not being so easy. Pathetic.

 

 

Yeah see people aren't "beating the {censored}" out of a baby because it moved while getting its diaper changed. This is why its hard to debate this with you. You genuinely have comprehension issues.

[FrostByte]

Imagine feeling the joy of having your legs released from diapers and just kicking them about grinning with joy - and not noticing the words from daddys mouth that say "lie still". Just basic kids happiness. And then *smack*, a hit to the butt - to the child a totally incomprehensible pain (no, toddlers don't connect kicking with the fact that we get all smeared in baby{censored}), just because the grownup couldn't restrain his frustration at the diaper changing not being so easy. Pathetic.

 

Comprehension fail

 

An active toddler that won't sit still while you change their diaper isn't means for punishment I actually find it quite cute. I'm talking more of a slap on the hand as they're reaching for an electrical outlet. Scares them, after a few times they realize that reaching for electrical outlet = bad and they don't do it anymore. Beats the alternative... My son is 18 months old and VERY active!!! Never given him more than a slap on the hand. At that age they don't understand the world enough to punish them by a rightful spanking. Their minds aren't developed enough to know right from wrong, as you suggest.

 

My daughter is almost 7 and EXTREMELY hyper! She's had a couple of spankings... and she hasn't done any of the things that led to those spankings again. You can tell a child something is bad all you want but they'll do it anyway, maybe be even more compelled to do it BECAUSE it's wrong, if they don't think there's a consequence. That's why we have laws.

[thinkpad20]

Without knowing too much detail, it sounds like some epic parenting fail is going on. Take responsibility for your kid... and if he's past the point of repair, point that blame back on yourself.

[OceansBetweenUs]

A small kid might need a little slap in some circumstances as they need a quick adjustment. Slapping the {censored} out them is out of order though. I don't see this being terribly effective against older kids, especially if it is too excess. My uncle used to beat one of his sons and he ruled through fear which was fine for him until his son was old enough and big enough to leather the living {censored} out of him and he was kicked out of his own house.

 

 

I'm all for hitting kids. I was, and a lot of other people of this generation were, and I don't think I'm worse off for it.

 

 

You know what happened when my parents hit me? I did something rude/disrespectful, and it was swift punishment with an immediate consequence. After the first few times, my moron brain realized it didn't like the consequences, and if I did {censored} up, I would apologize profusely for doing it to avoid said consequences. The mere thread of my dad bringing out the leather belt brought tears, which was good enough for my parents to prove their point that I was acting like a dickhead kid.

 

I was not punished for realizing my mistakes and apologizing. Grumphh (the moron) thinks this is poor parenting, and child abuse.

[Mesa4x12er2]

Indeed! Consequences should not be what deter you from doing "bad" things. That should be your conscience. And that is what good parents teach their kids. To take an absurd example: I don't abstain from driving ruthlessly through our local pedestrian street on saturday mornings (crowded) because i am scared of going to jail for manslaughter but because i know that it is wrong to drive through crowds. (Although i'd happily take my car through a crowd consisting of child beaters - then again, that wouldn't be wrong )

 

Overblown example much? Also people do wrong {censored} all of the time full well knowing it's wrong. Hell you were saying all kinds of pedo {censored} earlier in the thread where it did not belong at all. A. You know these dudes aren't pedos and B. what terrible claims to make. It was wrong. Yet you did it. Why? Because the consequences of your actions wouldn't be high enough to deter you. You clearly also take joy from being a condescending asshole. There is no right to it, but you enjoy doing it and you're doing it regardless of whether it was right or wrong.

 

You in a nutshell..

Is thing wrong? -YES

Do I care about the consequences? - NO

Am I going to do it even though it's wrong - YES

 

Clearly your argument is thin because even the Great You does wrong things full well knowing they are wrong.

 

I win.

[SiCkboy78]

[grumphh]

Comprehension fail An active toddler that won't sit still while you change their diaper isn't means for punishment I actually find it quite cute. I'm talking more of a slap on the hand as they're reaching for an electrical outlet. Scares them, after a few times they realize that reaching for electrical outlet = bad and they don't do it anymore. Beats the alternative... My son is 18 months old and VERY active!!! Never given him more than a slap on the hand. At that age they don't understand the world enough to punish them by a rightful spanking. Their minds aren't developed enough to know right from wrong, as you suggest. My daughter is almost 7 and EXTREMELY hyper! She's had a couple of spankings... and she hasn't done any of the things that led to those spankings again. You can tell a child something is bad all you want but they'll do it anyway, maybe be even more compelled to do it BECAUSE it's wrong, if they don't think there's a consequence. That's why we have laws.

 

As for the electrical outlets, over here they are child safe - but even if they weren't - you could just go and buy plugs and thus still not have to hit the kid.

Making the childs environment safer does beat hitting them.

 

...and don't give me {censored} about softening/pampering them through plugging your outlets, you don't leave sharp knives around the kids either - you just protect them from environmental harm.

 

As for hyper kids - where does that come from? (Unfortunately i am an avid proponent of the idea that all the diagnoses like ADD and ADHD and whatever are massively overused, and often caused by parents lack of attention to their kids, rather than being true biological disorders..)

And anyway what can a 6 year old actually do that deserves a regular spanking?

[grumphh]

You clearly also take joy from being a condescending asshole.

 

Of course i do

 

I mean telling a bunch of child beaters that they are pathetic without the threat of getting beaten up by an enraged group of lower class losers is fun.

 

...because that is how they usually justify their actions - through violence, no?