I forgot how bad digital amp offerings used to be...

[Neilrocks25]

+1. it was a great bedroom and recording amp that I eventually traded a guy for a Marshall AVT, taking my first step towards the toobies.

I got an AVT150 and hated it I love and I mean love, the original valvestates though

[Elemenope]

hahah funny that Phil mentioned the Crate GX1200 in that thread. I used to own one of those and it was actually the only amp that I have ever owned that actually caught fire.

[LaXu]

Honestly, even back in the late 1990s and early 2000s there were good modeling amps like the Yamaha DG amps or Hughes & Kettner Zentera. The problem was that they were quite expensive and Line6 had much, much better marketing. The L6 AX2, Flextones etc were just laughably bad by comparison but sold by a bucketload due to lower price and being in every guitar mag and store.

 

Then again there were also lots of unwieldy tube amps too, that only delivered the goods when cranked and that was way louder than anything less than stadiums should have. Also pretty much all low wattage tube amps were horrible.

[Mike LX-R]

I got an AVT150 and hated it I love and I mean love, the original valvestates though

 

Yeah I ditched that thing not too long after I bought it. I went through a sort of grassroots phase and bought a 66' BF Fender Pro Reverb, and eventually to my Laneys

[Dehumanize]

The average guitarist doesn't even know about the existence of the Axe FX or Kemper. It's common to see them considered among tube amplifiers on message boards, but for every guitarist that learns about gear online, there's a hundred more than buy exclusively from Guitar Center or used Craigslist garbage. There's excellent technology in modeling right now, but it's yet to reach the masses. The POD HD is the most advanced modeler available to most people, and it certainly has it's flaws, especially when compared to Axe FX/Kemper.

[nerol1st]

Watched a band recently use nothing but floor podHD500s for their live show.

 

It's wasn't bad by any stretch of the imagination. It was pretty apparent they had them dialed in really well.

 

Actually, I had no idea until I made my way closer to the stage.

 

However when I tried the HD400, I hated the {censored} out of it.

[13bats]

 

This is truth. In my cover band , I went from a MK IV and pedals to a L6 Spider IV 75 an to this day , I'm perfectly happy. Get compliments on my tone all the time and I can carry my entire rig inside in one trip without even straining. For a cover band , a modeller is the only way I'll go. Maintenance free and a huge palette of tones without a bunch of fiddling.

 

 

I hear ya man, having cabs heads ,a pile of pedals .miles of cable its a pain in the A$$.

Plus taking something like A Diezel, Engl on the road or into clubs where people are bumping ya a spilling crap is a nightmare

 

when you play in 4 band bills it becomes even more of a pain in the ass to either get it off quick or usually let the other bands use it if you are the main act

[tech21man]

 

This is truth. In my cover band , I went from a MK IV and pedals to a L6 Spider IV 75 an to this day , I'm perfectly happy. Get compliments on my tone all the time and I can carry my entire rig inside in one trip without even straining. For a cover band , a modeller is the only way I'll go. Maintenance free and a huge palette of tones without a bunch of fiddling.

 

 

Hey man how about the vypyr vs the spider IV? Which one cuts better?

[jimwratt]

My understanding is that the technology for modelling the actual preamp section of the amps is pretty solid but it's been the cabinet sims that have been wonky. Once IR came out, that problem went away, e.g. the Axe-FX. When IR permeates the low end of the market, we will see a genuine competition between comparably advanced technologies. I think modellers could win too depending on their adaptability and if the units become upgradeable.

I wish it was more like the iPhone or a computer when an older product can run newer OS/software with limited efficiency. As a Boss GT user, it's dismaying when something that was terrible gets fixed on a later model and you have to upgrade the whole unit to get that one sound. I wish I could just grab a RAM stick and a USB cable and improve my sounds that way.

Things willa lso get interesting when folks learn how to do aftermarket modifications to get better/different sounds...and when they start modelling zvex effects.

['63-Strat]

I've done a ton of shows with the flextone III combos for a school I work for (ie the students use them) and honestly... they're not that bad IMO. Could easily use just that for a covers gig. Floorboard works well and the xlr adjustable direct outs are a good feature.

[The Anomaly]

Watched a band recently use nothing but floor podHD500s for their live show. It's wasn't bad by any stretch of the imagination. It was pretty apparent they had them dialed in really well. Actually, I had no idea until I made my way closer to the stage . However when I tried the HD400, I hated the {censored} out of it.

This is key, MOST guitarists wouldn't know if they couldn't see what you were using. Plus, you, and the guitarists out there are the only ones who would even care, and even then, those audience guitarists are thinking about how much better they sound on their rig, so, that leaves you.

The girls I play in front of certainly don't GAF or even know if I'm playing through a fart bag or a marshall stack.

Caring about that stuff is for us and us alone.

[13bats]

 

This is key, MOST guitarists wouldn't know if they couldn't see what you were using. Plus, you, and the guitarists out there are the only ones who would even care, and even then, those audience guitarists are thinking about how much better they sound on their rig, so, that leaves you. The girls I play in front of certainly don't GAF or even know if I'm playing through a fart bag or a marshall stack. Caring about that stuff is for us and us alone.

 

 

 

so true the guitar player will play better if he feels inspired by the tone .I guess its more my crutch if I have a bad night it probably more noticeable whether I use a Line6 Dt 50 Blackstar or Cameron.

but to your point yes nobody gives a crap but you

['63-Strat]

 

so true the guitar player will play better if he feels inspired by the tone .I guess its more my crutch if I have a bad night it probably more noticeable whether I use a Line6 Dt 50 Blackstar or Cameron. but to your point yes nobody gives a crap but you

 

 

 

This is true of course but it's also a crutch. If you can play your parts well it shouldn't really matter that much so long as you can get similar gain/compression levels. Obviously someone used to playing djenty stuff is going to have trouble adjusting to playing their parts with a totally clean sound. It's good to be able to make it work with different rigs should the need arise IMO.

[tech21man]

I had never liked boss modelling in the past especially when I play alone with a GT for example. But even those, I've seen a guitarist providing an excellent sound DI with a roland VG something system which is infact cosm based. I was pretty impressed to be honest but personally I still don't like playing through them. Drinking beer and looking at boobs instead of trying to beat the drummer with a DI unit makes things much more enjoyable!

[emtoth]

Ha- my favorite modeler was a Crate dx 212 from 1999.

It sounded way better than the spider crap.

I wouldnt mind getting another one some day.

[LaXu]

 

My understanding is that the technology for modelling the actual preamp section of the amps is pretty solid but it's been the cabinet sims that have been wonky. Once IR came out, that problem went away, e.g. the Axe-FX. When IR permeates the low end of the market, we will see a genuine competition between comparably advanced technologies. I think modellers could win too depending on their adaptability and if the units become upgradeable. I wish it was more like the iPhone or a computer when an older product can run newer OS/software with limited efficiency. As a Boss GT user, it's dismaying when something that was terrible gets fixed on a later model and you have to upgrade the whole unit to get that one sound. I wish I could just grab a RAM stick and a USB cable and improve my sounds that way. Things willa lso get interesting when folks learn how to do aftermarket modifications to get better/different sounds...and when they start modelling zvex effects.

 

 

That's not true. Most older modelers were mainly modeling the preamp, but the newer stuff goes much further by modeling the poweramp and lots of esoteric stuff too. That's the big difference in the Axe-Fx, it requires a whopping {censored}load more processing power just for amp modeling because it does it on a much deeper level. The Axe-Fx 2 has a whole CPU devoted just for handling amp modeling. And they use the some of the fastest DSPs on the market.

 

That's also why you can't just upgrade or mod. The firmwares in use are made entirely for that specific hardware. Modding would require you to disassemble the firmware not to mention be able to reverse engineer how the thing works. In other words not gonna happen.

 

With purely software solutions you run into same things really, but on top of that you get to deal with latency issues, the quality of your audio interface etc. While it would be nice to just run a computer software, the hardware units are still a better bet as the DSP chips in them can process that kind of stuff better than the latest general purpose CPUs. I think Cliff mentioned that running the Axe-Fx software on a regular CPU requires something like a quad core Intel Core i7 processor...

[Norton666]

Hey man how about the vypyr vs the spider IV? Which one cuts better?

 

 

Line 6 hands down worked better for me in my cover bands context. Sitting in front of both amps , I thought the Vypyr (I had the tube 120 2x12) sounded better. More organic and a lot warmer, but I used it live 3 or 4 times and I could just never get it to mic off the way I wanted. Never sat right in the mix. I decided to bring both ps to the next show and A/B them and it was quickly apparent that the L6 just worked better in our mix. I sold the Vypyr and bought another IV 75 for a grab and go amp! That way I could leave one in the trailer always ready for cover gigs

[tech21man]

Thanks for the info man. A buddy is ready to actually sell his rack and go with a grab n go amp. He is between the mustang III and the spider IV 75. He needs a harmonizer he has the rocktron intellipitch but would like to know if the spider IV IPS works good enough so as not to lug around a rack case etc again. Too busy to actually go and try it himself!!!

[Markdude]

Yep, it amazes me too. Especially with VST stuff like Peavey ReValver, and even free ones like LePou's offerings. They seriously sound better than many pro commercial tones I've heard. I almost feel like I'm cheating for being able to record studio quality tones in a matter of minutes with minimal frustration, but it's made me a lot more creative and I'm loving it. It's absolutely incredible how far it's come. There's a world of difference between the modeling world now and how it was back in the days of the original POD (although admittedly I was a total n00b back then and hadn't been playing guitar for very long).

[Markdude]

My understanding is that the technology for modelling the actual preamp section of the amps is pretty solid but it's been the cabinet sims that have been wonky. Once IR came out, that problem went away, e.g. the Axe-FX. When IR permeates the low end of the market, we will see a genuine competition between comparably advanced technologies. I think modellers could win too depending on their adaptability and if the units become upgradeable.

 

 

I agree, I bet that's a big part of it. I've used some truly wonky stuff into IRs and gotten great results (like the amp sims on an old Digitech RP100 pedal). Running real preamps into IRs yields great results too. My first experience using IRs was plugging my ADA MP-1 into my interface and using one of GuitarHack's impulses. I was immediately floored. I knew right then that I was diving into a whole new world of guitar recording.

[ke2]

In my experience it's a mids thing. Modeling amps tend to be less mid-focused than others because they aim for "sounding like a recorded amp in the room", and in recordings usually the mids are more controlled / scooped than in a live setting. But yeah. Just run that mid knob a bit higher, please .

Up the mids and down the bass and gain a little.
Many tube amps get lost in the mix too, for the same reason

[tech21man]

 

I agree, I bet that's a big part of it. I've used some truly wonky stuff into IRs and gotten great results (like the amp sims on an old Digitech RP100 pedal). Running real preamps into IRs yields great results too. My first experience using IRs was plugging my ADA MP-1 into my interface and using one of GuitarHack's impulses. I was immediately floored. I knew right then that I was diving into a whole new world of guitar recording.

 

 

I did that with my mesa studio preamp and also noticed that if you add a power amp sim from revalver it de fizzes and allows you even more tailoring. And a better sound, closer to a real amp.

 

BUT, some IRs are captured with power amp distortion/colouring in high levels and they also state the power tube type of the amp. And in fact, the preamp sounded better with those without the power amp sim engaged. I'd like to see this capability in more modellers. The pod HD has it, axe-fx also. The zoom g3 has it. Digitech doesn't do squat...where the {censored} are the new GSP lines damn it?

[13bats]

I did that with my mesa studio preamp and also noticed that if you add a power amp sim from revalver it de fizzes and allows you even more tailoring. And a better sound, closer to a real amp. BUT, some IRs are captured with power amp distortion/colouring in high levels and they also state the power tube type of the amp. And in fact, the preamp sounded better with those without the power amp sim engaged. I'd like to see this capability in more modellers. The pod HD has it, axe-fx also. The zoom g3 has it. Digitech doesn't do squat...where the {censored} are the new GSP lines damn it?

 

 

It will be intersting to see what happens over the next year. I am sure Digitech will be returning with the Gsp1201 or whatever, with probably IR loading...

 

As per the TGP forum Scott says he has a buddy that works for Yamaha and they are working on a modelling product to rival the Fractal and Kemper high end..

 

Line6 before Rich Renken left commented they did not want to use IRs as they said it was like a photo of the Mona lisa and they actually wanted to paint it ,what ever cryptic that meant sounds like they are working on a new speaker and cab modelling tech perhaps a stand alone box or add on like Torpedo..

 

I think Namm 2013 will bring out a lot of next generation stuff

[tech21man]

In a sense they were right. IR is a bit of a digital snapshot. I tried to find the theory behind it? Something like thousand eq points to create what you hear. But this is not dynamic isn't it? When you push your cabinet along with your amp, it changes. Damping, the way the speaker moves and its magnet creates current (if I remember correctly? maybe wrong) is dynamic. The way this stuff reacts with your amp and ultimately with the signal you put in the amp (soft, hard, lower, higher your playing dynamics) is usually interupted withing digital units. I think they may have tried to move all that in the preamp section, digitally. Anyway, even your cab as a system changes, tension, the dust cap acting as a tweeter of sort (line6 did in fact described it on the pod XT manual as an effect) all these change. Can't be done with just a (very) detailed eq photographed of a miced signal.

[LaXu]

 

As per the TGP forum Scott says he has a buddy that works for Yamaha and they are working on a modelling product to rival the Fractal and Kemper high end..

 

 

I really hope this is true. The Yamaha DG amps were really easy to use and considering they came out in around 1997, they were way ahead of the competition for years. I'll instantly buy one if they come up with something that sounds about as good as my Axe-Fx but is much easier to use.