WTF are these things called?

[larry50]

I come here for the camaraderie, I stay for the personal insults..... For the record, my insults were directed at the his opinions and attitude expressed here, not on his personal life or professional skills. I would never do that.

He acted like a dick. You were justified in calling him out on it. He could have offered his opinion without criticizing yours. I respect his experience, but there was no need to be rude.

[Hudman]

 

He acted like a dick. You were justified in calling him out on it. He could have offered his opinion without criticizing yours. I respect his experience, but there was no need to be rude.

 

 

Thanks, I appreciate that.

 

I've been a member here for a while now and I do my best to be nice to everyone, but I have my limits.

 

Sorry if I offended anyone.

[wolfbane]

lol i am new here and a man has a right to what he thinks but no need to get personnel about it
and definatly no need to be rude to any one , Unless you are being disrespected to start with i think:)

seems to me both you gentlemen know plenty about guitars

[Pitar]

What do I know? I live in my Mom's basement and play Guitar Hero all day.... This place is hilarious.

 

 

Make a good Christmas Card pic.

[Whalebot]

This was f'ng classic, not at all what I expected...I love this place...but who is the mysterious misogynist asshole Sangemon? And as an aside. Thanks all for the answer. I'm going to bling the hell out of this little guitar, it's for my kids...we'll see who ends up doing most of the shredding though.

[mjuenem]

Didn't we just have a full moon?

[Guitar_stringer]

As to who is right between Hudman and Guitar_stringer on the fine points they are arguing about, I have no idea. As to who the asshole is, its Guitar-stringer. His guitars look really interesting, but his attitude makes me reluctant to want to deal with him, and makes me wonder what the customer service would be like.

Since you want to wade into this and also choose to call me names, you are now off of my xmas card list. Let me also ease your "reluctance". We reserve the right to refuse orders to anyone, and you just made the list.

May I suggest my dear friend One Hung Low, to see to your guitar needs. He's quite a ways east of here.

[Guitar_stringer]

Actually, you proved that you didn't even understand what you were arguing and you are a hot head. Thicker neck blanks require more wood. Thicker neck blanks are more expensive. I can live with being a pompous ass because I'm right and you are wrong.

You are apparently even a bigger pompous ass, than I first thought. I understand perfectly the steps, and the associated costs in building guitars.
Apparently you fail to understand how guitar necks are made. It's not just the size of the "neck blank", it's primarily the grain orientation of it: Flat-sawn, or Quarter sawn. Many makers save money by using Flat-sawn woods in their necks, instead of the stronger and stiffer Quarter-sawn.

I make our necks using 3/4" thick tonewoods, is this thin enough for you? I won't bore you with the details, as I doubt you would understand anyway. Suffice it to say, that when you don't know what the hell you are talking about, it's best just to stay quiet.

So, no. You remain quite wrong.

btw, "spanish heels", are made by gluing up several laminations on the root end of a neck, not one piece.

[DarkHorseJ27]

Since you want to wade into this and also choose to call me names, you are now off of my xmas card list. Let me also ease your "reluctance". We reserve the right to refuse orders to anyone, and you just made the list.

One, I wasn't calling you a name. I was stating the fact of who the person is that being the problem person in this thread.

Two, how will you enforce your "order ban" against me? You don't know who I am.

Third, you are representative of your company, especially here at HC. What you say and how you act reflects upon North Star Guitars. So far in several of your posts, and just not in this thread, you have been arrogant, rude, and a jerk, to put it mildly.

[Guitar_stringer]

So far in several of your posts, and just not in this thread, you have been arrogant, rude, and a jerk, to put it mildly.

Awwwww how nice you noticed. And these are my good points.

[garthman]

Damn! I was sleeping.

[Gary Palmer]

Actually, it's well documented. Leo Fender's goal was to mass produce his guitars and keep them affordable. Part of that was how he designed the neck. Angled headstocks require a thicker slab of lumber if you use a single piece .

Not necessarily, but some clarification may be necessary when defining the size of a single piece. Is it a 4" x 4" billet, a length of 3/4" x 4" or multiple lengths of 3/4" thick x whatever dimension and laminated?

Disregarding the publicity and spin driven by ad-men and publicity depts, Fender's goal as his guitars popularity rose swiftly became profit oriented due to his business' productivity being based around the use of machine shop/production line practices and semi-skilled labour. Affordability was certainly the case to a certain extent, dependant upon income levels, but that concept fell by the wayside as prices rose to match their growing customer base and shareholder's demands for greater profit margins.

Angled headstocks don't require a thicker slab of wood when using thinner stock and scarving the angle transition joint. The tendancy with scarved necks/headstocks is to use a uniform thickness of timber - generally 3/4" variable - cut the joint, reverse and attach the off-cut in order to achieve the 15 deg (Variable) angle, thin the headplate, taper the neck blank and - in the case of acoustic guitars - attach a stacked heel or single block before profiling. In essence the end result is still drawn from a single piece of timber, using multiple steps. If making electric guitar necks, scarf jointing and thinning the headstock is still a comparitively quick process.

Considering the above, how deep/thick is a Strat or Tele style heel? Generally circa 3/4" - 7/8" depending upon maker and spec., but whilst remaining a single piece neck IMHO the process of producing the given style of headstock is no simpler than scarving a 15 deg break angle in 3/4" stock. It can in fact be more difficult to produce a headstock on the same plane as the neck if you don't possess the necessary equipment i.e. thickness sander, router or milling machine.

Obtaining a neck with canted headstock from a larger billet without altering grain orientation has always been acknowledged as producing a weaker end product. Gibson instruments - as an example - tend to suffer badly from broken headstock syndrome due to this ongoing practice, but utilising larger stock tends to be more a symptom of mass production involving a great deal of waste than sound luthiery practice. Potential problems can be reduced by forming a volute at the transition point, but you still don't remove the phenomena surrounding problematical grain orientation and the best resolution is to use thinner stock and scarve a transition joint when forming the break angle.

Whether or not the process of producing an angled headstock takes more timber, work, or is more stable is debatable because much depends upon the size of the stock you begin with, whether it's flat or quarter sawn, techniques used and so on. In the case of acoustic guitars it's also whether or not you chose to stack or use a solid block for the heel, or form everything from a single unit.

Leo Fender's theory and working practice was borne of the incentive to maximise productivity and profits based upon a production line, utilising and making electric guitars en mass via stream-lined machine shop practices involving minimal production costs and skill sets. In essence his speciallity was electronics and not luthiery, while his focus was on profits. As always, some good and some bad aspects in terms of end product, but - at the time - heavily popularised via the fact he'd deviated from the then more common arch top and moved on to producing instruments at lower cost to himself and capable of producing the sounds people sought at that time. Not bad for an amp builder who never learned to play guitar and built instruments using very basic methods and materials.

------------

String trees.

[BROLEX]

4 pages on string trees. Information par excellence

[Hudman]

Not necessarily, but some clarification may be necessary when defining the size of a single piece. Is it a 4" x 4" billet, a length of 3/4" x 4" or multiple lengths of 3/4" thick x whatever dimension and laminated? Disregarding the publicity and spin driven by ad-men and publicity depts, Fender's goal as his guitars popularity rose swiftly became profit oriented due to his business' productivity being based around the use of machine shop/production line practices and semi-skilled labour. Affordability was certainly the case to a certain extent, dependant upon income levels, but that concept fell by the wayside as prices rose to match their growing customer base and shareholder's demands for greater profit margins. Angled headstocks don't require a thicker slab of wood when using thinner stock and scarving the angle transition joint. The tendancy with scarved necks/headstocks is to use a uniform thickness of timber - generally 3/4" variable - cut the joint, reverse and attach the off-cut in order to achieve the 15 deg (Variable) angle, thin the headplate, taper the neck blank and - in the case of acoustic guitars - attach a stacked heel or single block before profiling. In essence the end result is still drawn from a single piece of timber, using multiple steps. If making electric guitar necks, scarf jointing and thinning the headstock is still a comparitively quick process. Considering the above, how deep/thick is a Strat or Tele style heel? Generally circa 3/4" - 7/8" depending upon maker and spec., but whilst remaining a single piece neck IMHO the process of producing the given style of headstock is no simpler than scarving a 15 deg break angle in 3/4" stock. It can in fact be more difficult to produce a headstock on the same plane as the neck if you don't possess the necessary equipment i.e. thickness sander, router or milling machine. Obtaining a neck with canted headstock from a larger billet without altering grain orientation has always been acknowledged as producing a weaker end product. Gibson instruments - as an example - tend to suffer badly from broken headstock syndrome due to this ongoing practice, but utilising larger stock tends to be more a symptom of mass production involving a great deal of waste than sound luthiery practice. Potential problems can be reduced by forming a volute at the transition point, but you still don't remove the phenomena surrounding problematical grain orientation and the best resolution is to use thinner stock and scarve a transition joint when forming the break angle. Whether or not the process of producing an angled headstock takes more timber, work, or is more stable is debatable because much depends upon the size of the stock you begin with, whether it's flat or quarter sawn, techniques used and so on. In the case of acoustic guitars it's also whether or not you chose to stack or use a solid block for the heel, or form everything from a single unit. Leo Fender's theory and working practice was borne of the incentive to maximise productivity and profits based upon a production line, utilising and making electric guitars en mass via stream-lined machine shop practices involving minimal production costs and skill sets. In essence his speciallity was electronics and not luthiery, while his focus was on profits. As always, some good and some bad aspects in terms of end product, but - at the time - heavily popularised via the fact he'd deviated from the then more common arch top and moved on to producing instruments at lower cost to himself and capable of producing the sounds people sought at that time. Not bad for an amp builder who never learned to play guitar and built instruments using very basic methods and materials. ------------ String trees.

 

As stated numerous times, I said I read it several times over the years. This reading included interviews with Leo Fender.

 

His neck design was to maximize profits and increase mass production.

 

I have no clue why anyone argued with me about it.

 

Not only is it not conjecture on my part, it 's completely logical and can be understood with basic common sense.

 

This forum would argue about water being wet or not. There would be at least one person that would hurl personal insults at the guy that claimed water was wet. They would probably tell that person that they live in their Mom's basement and play Guitar Hero all day.

[BROLEX]

His neck design was to maximize profits and increase mass production.

i wouldnt doubt that at all.


but what would be is to pay premium for a brand new fender with those cheap design these days.

[garthman]

I am very suprised that no-one has yet mentioned that the use of fossilized pteradactyl bone string trees vastly improves the tone of a guitar, especially a vintage deluxe stratocaster.

[knockwood]

He acted like a dick. You were justified in calling him out on it. He could have offered his opinion without criticizing yours. I respect his experience, but there was no need to be rude.

 

 

This.

 

No amount of experience justifies that kind of dismissive, "If you disagree with me, you are an idiot" rudeness. Nor does it negate common sense. I don't know how to bake a dog{censored} souffl

[Gary Palmer]

As stated numerous times, I said I read it several times over the years. This reading included interviews with Leo Fender. His neck design was to maximize profits and increase mass production. I have no clue why anyone argued with me about it. Not only is it not conjecture on my part, it 's completely logical and can be understood with basic common sense. This forum would argue about water being wet or not. There would be at least one person that would hurl personal insults at the guy that claimed water was wet. They would probably tell that person that they live in their Mom's basement and play Guitar Hero all day.

Depends on whether or not the water is solid, liquid or gas.

The sticking point was directly related to an affirmation that greater timber thickness was necessary for creating an angled headstock and it simply isn't the case. Especially if building a neck with the same heel attachment as a Strat or Tele. Nothing more or less. Leo Fender approached the problem from a non-player and wood machinist stand point, with focus on electronics, production rates, sales and profits.

Much depends upon the dimensions of base materials in use and while a great deal of what's generally been written and publicised much of it tends to be produced by collectors, players, non-players, sales surpemo's, etc., and they seldom relate to construction from a builder's perspective.

----------

Garthy,

Pteradactyl wing bone string trees take some beating due to the way they flap around and raise the bar a tone or three.

[garthman]

---------- Garthy, Pteradactyl wing bone string trees take some beating due to the way they flap around and raise the bar a tone or three.

Bugger! And there was I thinking it was due to the impressive strength to weight ratio of the material due to the reptile's high intake of veloceraptor intestines.

[Sangemon]

This was f'ng classic, not at all what I expected...I love this place...but who is the mysterious misogynist asshole Sangemon?

 

Interesting. He had two posts on the first page. Very vulgar. I guess maybe the mods agreed with me because they are both gone.

 

EDIT: After some research I've discovered that the posts I was referring to were on another thread. So I guess there's another asshole on this thread now: me.

 

Anyway, never mind....

[Guitar_stringer]

This. No amount of experience justifies that kind of dismissive, "If you disagree with me, you are an idiot" rudeness. Nor does it negate common sense. I don't know how to bake a dog{censored} souffl

[Whalebot]

Now the real question...will this mini strat explode and blow off my pecker if I install a vintage string tree? And no worries Sangemon, you have some very nice martins, makes up for just about any transgression!

[bugeyed]

This subforum is a much more civilized place when the solid body/electric guitar people stay away! Or so it would seem.

[missedmyexit]

As stated numerous times, I said I read it several times over the years. This reading included interviews with Leo Fender. His neck design was to maximize profits and increase mass production. I have no clue why anyone argued with me about it. Not only is it not conjecture on my part, it 's completely logical and can be understood with basic common sense. This forum would argue about water being wet or not. There would be at least one person that would hurl personal insults at the guy that claimed water was wet. They would probably tell that person that they live in their Mom's basement and play Guitar Hero all day.

Hudman this is forum, I got nothing against your whole point here but you seem flabergasted that people don't take your word on it because you said you read it a couple times. I'm not saying you didn't or that it's not true but you have to expect people to offer different views in a public forum.

Not knowing anything about Fender's history I myself is more apt to believe Gary's explanation because it is detailed, seems pretty well thought out and lacks the words "Asshole" "Asshat" and "Pompous".

As far as GuitarStringer goes pal if you don't want conjecture I'ld suggest you take up discussing guitar building with your trusty pet dog. There is nothing at all wrong with a little civil conjecture which you my friend don't seem very good at. Like Hudman you want to toss your thoughts out there, challenge Hudman's view and expect everyone on the forum Hud included to say "Hey it's Guitar Stringers so he must be right, lets just believe what he says and move on. Gosh I'm so happy we have Guitar Stringer to set everything straight for us." Again... guitar FORUM.

Lastly this is a Acoustic forum and I'm pretty sure most agree Fender doesn't really get the job done on acoustics so why are you arguing this here?

Fun stuff though guys I got a good chuckle or two about the absurdity of two guys getting heated over a internet discussion on string trees and the history of the Fender headstock. Priceless stuff! CARRY ON!

[bugeyed]

snip Fun stuff though guys I got a good chuckle or two about the absurdity of two guys getting heated over a internet discussion on string trees and the history of the Fender headstock. Priceless stuff! CARRY ON!

I agree with your analysis.
Based on how absurd the back & forth was getting, I was starting to think that maybe I was witnessing a comedy act. The Guitar Stringer/Hudman show. I am still waiting for them to say, OK, we got you guys.
Cheers,
kev