WTF are these things called?

[rhancox]

I like your conjecture...... No need to be an asshole. Here's a thought: You may not know everything. Although, it's obvious you think you do.

And here's how it started. It is amazing how someone can fly off the handle at someone making a civil comment about one's comment.

I'm not defending anyone here, but GuitarStringer was making the point that just because using less wood is a cost saver doesn't mean that was the whole reason for the choice. He agreed with Hudman on the cost saving point was taking the neutral ground by saying we weren't there when Fender made up his mind, so we don't know exactly what he was thinking. Hudman's "conjecture" was based on what he'd read over the years. However, without any direct quotes, we have to rely on Hud's interpretation of what he read, which some could characterize as conjecture. Insulting? Not exactly.

But that's where the first name calling begins because someone characterizes another's comment as conjecture.

Amazing.

[missedmyexit]

I never joined this mental ward to win any popularity contests, only to shed some light on what makes guitars work well, but there seems to be more assholes here, than at a proctologists convention.

 

 

Wow I wasn't going to get into the name calling but this could be the most pompous statement I've ever read on this forum. I am so glad you joined up to enlighten us slow folks on what make the guitar work well.

[rhancox]

Really, folks.

Testosterone should be a controlled substance. It's obvious there are some who can't handle it's affects.

[Hudman]

One more time for the people failing to follow along.

 

It is cheaper to make a Strat neck out of one piece of lumber than it is an angled neck.

 

It requires a thinner neck blank.

 

Everyone taking the opposite stance is claiming that you can make a neck from multiple, thin pieces. Did I ever say that was not possible?

 

Do you think there would be additional labor involved with laminating the multiple pieces of lumber? Do you think it would involve more labor and add to the production time and cost?

 

Carvin sells multi-piece necks at a premium cost for their special order necks on their electric guitars? Why? More labor, more time.

 

I find it {censored}ing amazing how people are ready to point out that the {censored} head Guitar Stringer and I are on equal ground on this one.

 

Guitar Stringer attacks anyone that disagrees with him, even when he doesn't know what he's arguing about.

 

He's a bitter prick that jumps into an argument without actually comprehending what is being said. I swear he thinks he should be right up there with Leo Fender and Les Paul.

 

{censored}ing joke.

[Hudman]

Really, folks. Testosterone should be a controlled substance. It's obvious there are some who can't handle it's affects.

 

 

Thanks, we would be lost without your valuable insight.

[Hudman]

Wow I wasn't going to get into the name calling but this could be the most pompous statement I've ever read on this forum. I am so glad you joined up to enlighten us slow folks on what make the guitar work well.

 

Wow, come on now.

 

No need to go there.

 

 

This place is silly.

[kwakatak]

Really, folks. Testosterone should be a controlled substance. It's obvious there are some who can't handle it's affects.

Hmmm. Maybe the younger folks should "pump before posting?" I hear that can make one less teste?

[gitnoob]

Arrogance and expertise often go hand-in-hand. It's human nature, I guess. The more you know about something, the less tolerant you become of people with less knowledge. Kind of like the SNL computer nerd bits -- those guys really exist.

 

Personally, I'm used to the attitude and I automatically filter it out if I find the information useful or entertaining.

[bigald18]

Guitar Stringer's use of the word "conjecture" is not offensive. Calling someone an asshole is. If he appears arrogant, it is because he DOES know what he is talking about. Palmer, in much detail, explained it. Hudman couldn't accept that explanation either. I would really question who the asshole actually is.

BigAl

[sixgunner455]

really? is this cat fight still going on? lol.

[gitnoob]

 

Obtaining a neck with canted headstock from a larger billet without altering grain orientation has always been acknowledged as producing a weaker end product.

 

 

I thought the problem was not just a weaker neck, but also one more prone to warping.

 

I always thought the best approach was the three-piece laminate, and I like the necks that use ebony in the middle layer, but I suppose it'd be preferable from a stability standpoint to use the same wood species for all three layers.

 

Aren't scarf joints considered the weakest joint in woodworking? Is the three-piece lam much harder to do?

[Hudman]

Guitar Stringer's use of the word "conjecture" is not offensive. Calling someone an asshole is. If he appears arrogant, it is because he DOES know what he is talking about. Palmer, in much detail, explained it. Hudman couldn't accept that explanation either. I would really question who the asshole actually is. BigAl

 

And BigAl rides in on his high horse...welcome to the party.

 

You can feel free to call me an asshole straight up. No need to be a smart ass about it.

 

I accept Mr. Palmer's explanation for making necks out of multiple pieces of a thin neck blank. However, I never said you couldn't do that. That was never a factor in my argument.

 

Mr. Palmer described the process of making a neck out of multiple pieces of a thin neck blank. Yes, it's common. I think you will also find that a thin neck blank is less expensive than an equal quality thicker neck blank.

 

I think you will find that I used single piece and one piece of lumber multiple times in this thread. No glue, no joints, no laminates. If you add a scarf joint you now have 2 pieces. If you add a center stripe you now have 3 pieces. It also requires more time and labor to glue and clamp multi-piece necks.

 

 

I called Guitar Stringer a pompous asshole, because he told me I was using conjecture. Conjecture, is a nice way of calling my original post bull {censored}.

 

I guess, I could have called Guitar Stringer an arrogant, know-it-all, that talks down to every one, but "pompous asshole" does it in fewer words.

 

I base my opinion of Guitar Stringer on his "body of work" on this forum. He has a history of talking down to folks and being arrogant. I did not direct my insult at his profession or his Northstar guitars. I directed it towards his bitchy attitude.

 

BigAl - You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. I will never call you an asshole for defending yourself and I never gang up on people.

[John Watt]

Without making any personal references to the many participants here,
you string tree guys have left me some room to add to your thread topic.
I've always called them string retainers. That's what the Fender catalog called them.
And for me, Graph Tech are the best. I built my guitar with them.
String retainers are a big part of your strings acoustic sound, an important part of the design.
It surprised me how much moving their placements around affected the tuning and sound.

Some guitars have a metal rod with all the strings going under it.
I like the metal rod idea, but it would have to start half-way between the fretboard and first tuner,
and go up past the second tuner on the high E string.
There is more of a machinist's mentality in Fender's design.
He's letting you winding on the bass E and A string be part of his design,
using only one retainer for many years, nothing holding in a linear pattern.
If he applied the same tremolo bridge logistics each string would have an individual retainer.
I'm surprised Steve Vai never designed a filigree metalwork, a decorative string "tree",
held by special Steve Vai "head-shock" nuts... and bolts,
a matching piece for his "fathead" brass headstock shim.

As far as necks and how much wood built any which way,
I can tell you've never built a hockey stick that took a slap-shot with a frozen puck.
Is this an opening for headstocks that couldn't take a shot?
Or which year Stratocaster headstock makes the best paddle?

as always, John Watt

[flemtone]

String trees. They help break the strings over the nut properly because the Strat has a straight headstock.

Had this thread ended here (post 3), this whole {censored}storm could have been avoided.

 

Thanks, Larry. Your explanation was clear enough for me.

 

To be more precise, I was able to glean your meaning from the words you chose to use.

 

:poke:

[bugeyed]

Nothing like sitting back & watching two over inflated egos make fools of themselves. I just wonder what they think they have to gain. Certainly not credibility, that went out the window long ago. I don't care how knowledgeable a person is, if they are rude & arrogant, I don't give them any credit. There are far too many "experts" on this forum that are willing to share their knowledge with humility & maturity.

[stomias]

All I know is that cheap SOB Leo really shorted me on the finish coat of my '70 Strat.....I've tried to break the neck but have failed so far. Most string trees are grown in northern Wisconsin.

[Gary Palmer]

I thought the problem was not just a weaker neck, but also one more prone to warping. I always thought the best approach was the three-piece laminate, and I like the necks that use ebony in the middle layer, but I suppose it'd be preferable from a stability standpoint to use the same wood species for all three layers. Aren't scarf joints considered the weakest joint in woodworking? Is the three-piece lam much harder to do?

 

 

Flat sawn timber tends to be more prone to warpage and cupping than quarter sawn timber which has much less tendancy to warp in any direction.

 

I'd dare say there's no such thing as best technique, because each method possess' pro's and con's. Regardless of lamination method the scarf joint is an extremely strong means of forming a transition point on a guitar neck when done properly. Three to six (Nominate a number) piece laminate necks are perfectly fine, but the strength gained is lost if your assumptions concerning scarving joints is correct. That is unless we're discussing full length sections of laminate which then rely upon a degree of cross-over/inter-link in graining at the transition point.

 

Poorly cut dry scarving joints tend to be a weaker joint than accurately cut and glued scarving joints. It's the accuracy of the cut, increased surface area and refined degree of gluing that tends to make the joint (Any joint) sound and this is why a scarving joint is particularly good one to use. The scarf joint in question is also typically faced using a veneer on at least one side (Often both faces) which in itself is a form of lamination and strengthens the joint by quite a margin.

[stomias]

scarfed tip on my 1937 F.E. Thomas bamboo flyrod is holding up really good on the giant Kings of lake Michigan lately.

 

 

 

[DarkHorseJ27]

I guess, I could have called Guitar Stringer an arrogant, know-it-all, that talks down to every one, but "pompous asshole" does it in fewer words. I base my opinion of Guitar Stringer on his "body of work" on this forum. He has a history of talking down to folks and being arrogant.

 

 

This is what explains why Hudman and others had a negative reaction to Guitar Stringer.

[stomias]

What are these things called???

 

 

 

[JasmineTea]

For the record, my insults were directed at the his opinions and attitude expressed here, not on his personal life or professional skills. I would never do that.

I would.

[Gary Palmer]

I think you will find that I used single piece and one piece of lumber multiple times in this thread. No glue, no joints, no laminates. If you add a scarf joint you now have 2 pieces. If you add a center stripe you now have 3 pieces. It also requires more time and labor to glue and clamp multi-piece necks.

How the Devil do you attach your fingerboards? Don't forget the fingerboards.

If you count the scarved headstock as a second piece in the neck puzzle you're creating and then add a centre strip, it turns the neck into a six piece and not a three piece neck - unless you only laminate the neck section and then it's a four piece neck. Strictly speaking, a supposedly one piece Strat neck becomes a two piece as soon as they add the skunk stripe, but that's nit picking, or is it?

Timber costs? Much depends upon where you source/buy your timber insomuch as costs are concerned.

I and many other builders use single billets to build necks, as well as re-sawing larger billets and using thinner stock, but that's down to personal preference. Nothing more or less, but physical strength and stability is always a factor in any build result. What you will find when producing an angled headstock instead of a straight one is, when compared there's little - if any - difference in terms of the labour involved in either neck type, but you will find the angled headstock is simpler to produce in terms of tooling.

Angled headstocks provide the best break angle for strings at the nut, but that's not truly the issue. Is it?

Laminate necks are more stable than single piece necks, but that's not the real issue either. Although they don't take that long to assemble if the stock is pre-cut and dressed.

Why does a replacement pre-finished Fender Strat neck necessarily cost more than a replacement pre-finished Gibson Les Paul or acoustic guitar neck? The straight headstock is simpler and less expensive to produce. Isn't it?

I'm simply pointing out a few aspects that seem to have been overlooked.

Arguing the toss is one thing, but not when one side of the argument relies heavily on guesswork, assumption and Spock like logic, while the other is trying to explain facts based upon hands on craft experience.

And stop sulking over the Guitar Hero jibe. Which version and level are you on? That thing's got more sequals than Friday the 13th.

[Simon Cowbell]

How the Devil do you attach your fingerboards? Don't forget the fingerboards.

 

 

I thought the integrated fretboard was the other thing Fender did to hold down costs on those one piece necks.

[Gary Palmer]

I thought the integrated fretboard was the other thing Fender did to hold down costs on those one piece necks.

Depends on which era, year or version you're referring to. Their Rosewood and ebony boards are definitely not integral to maple necks.

[gitnoob]

Can we all agree that the best possible neck is this one?