It's Official! I asked Zager for a Refund

[totamus]

[Hudman]

Zager owners must suffer serious buyer's remorse. I think they are trying to convince everyone (including their selves) that Zager guitars are not over-priced. I have never defended a purchase decision like the Zager owners. They seem to be borderline psychotic.

[totamus]

Zager owners must suffer serious buyer's remorse. I think they are trying to convince everyone (including their selves) that Zager guitars are not over-priced. I have never defended a purchase decision like the Zager owners. They seem to be borderline psychotic.

 

I often wonder how many real Zager owners are on the forum...

 

[Brokepick]

Yes, it seems to be in abundance on this forum. If you took that bet about Denny not seeing these guitars with his name on them you would loose. He sends a poloroid photo of himself doing a final inspection the guitar you are buying. Also, If these are $100 guitars then so are about 2/3's of the Under $1000 guitars I played. I just played more guitars this morning while checking out a couple of Crate amps at Guitar Center. Many looked and felt cheaper (Takamine, Ibanez, to name a few) and they cost $300-600. I did play a Martin that was quite nice and a Seagull Maritime Mini Jumbo that was a quality guitar at a good price (yes, I know it was made in Canada).

 

Your Z@ger is probably a reasonably good guitar, but that still does not justify what you paid for it. Reasonably good guitars can be had for a lot less. Sorry.

Your continued adamant praise of a guitar of only marginal quality that costs as much as higher quality guitars, and your attempts at justifying questionable marketing tactics brings your ability to objectively judge guitar quality into serious question. Sorry.

[Brokepick]

I often wonder how many real Zager owners are on the forum...

 

If I had bought one of them, I would probably be a little afraid to admit it.

[totamus]

Well to be really, really clear. If you bought a Zager, I am sure that you did so based upon the hype and marketing misrepresentations. The constant Zager negativism is aimed at preventing new buyers from being lulled by Denny's siren song of an "EZ Play" Guitar which has been blessed with string science.

 

To be even clearer, if you own a Zager, I am glad you have a guitar. Welcome to the forum. Sorry that you were tricked into overpaying - really.

[totamus]

You know, there's a book in the "For Dummies" series: "Guitar for Dummies." Well, perhaps Zager should sell his guitars as "Guitars for Dummies."

 

What an incredible observation! Hope you don't mind me running with your idea!

 

[OldGuitarPlayer]

Ok...so Denny signs and sends a photo of every guitar he sends out...that still doesn't make him a master luthier and still doesn't negate the fact that it's a $100 guitar (Denny's cost) made in Indonesia. Oh..sorry yours is a solid top right? So that makes it a $200 guitar. He sells the $100 all laminate "Martin" Sigma DM-1's for $500....sheeshe dude....I am sincerely glad you love the ZAD80CE...it's probably a nice guitar and apparently so are $800 Blueridge's but I wouldn't buy one of those either.

 

When I was in the mail order scam business we used to sell "Rare & Ancient coins for $80 to $100 a pop and include a nice color folio with the history of the "Rare and Ancient" coin. The company I worked for would pay $5 to $7 for the coin which were easily obtained from international coin dealers. The plastic coin holder that the coin was encased in cost .05 cents. The cost of the each folio was about $1.00. It cost about $2 to send it to the customer...Ok...now we are up to a cost of approx $10 for each $100 "Rare and Ancient" coin.

 

Oh yeah by the way I was the one who signed the name of some dead coin expert on the "Certificate of Authenticity" for each coin.

 

This is what Zager does. He buys guitars inexpensively from Indonesia that are made in a factory, signs them and then sells them at a huge markup.

 

It's called capitalism.

 

Before the internet the mail order company I worked for would mail out 250,000 mass junk mailings. Generally 5% of the people would be sucked in by the fancy words and color brochure....thats 12,500 people.

 

I imagine Denny is very well off now that he has the limitless advertisment possibilities of the internet.

[Bubbalou]

Your Z@ger is probably a reasonably good guitar, but that still does not justify what you paid for it. Reasonably good guitars can be had for a lot less. Sorry. Your continued adamant praise of a guitar of only marginal quality that costs as much as higher quality guitars, and your attempts at justifying questionable marketing tactics brings your ability to objectively judge guitar quality into serious question. Sorry.

 

 

Fair enough, however it looks, plays, and sounds as good as Breedlove, Seagull, and some (I said some) Martin's that are $795-$1400. That was noted also by the Guitar Center Salesman and another man my age who was looking at and playing guitars. The Salesman and the other guy could both play better than me. I let the guy my age play it after he played some Breedloves. He really liked it and asked where did I get it. I told him. And, to be fair, I also told him he would get negative reviews on this forum.

Am I saying other guitar makers cannot achieve anything that has been done to my Zager? Absolutely not. The guitar is really nice for what I paid in looks, playability and sound but so are others.

As I stated, I found a really nice Seagull that had I have played it before buying this one I would have jumped at for $795.

I also love most Martins and some Gibson's (not all). I can state that two of the higher priced Martins had a Fishman Aura pre that I did not like at all (too tinny sounding for my tastes) but the guitars were tops. I liked the $1400 Martin with Prefix Master Blend (mic/transducer).

 

Before I close the post I have to say to totamus : Cool editing. What did you use to do that? And where can I buy the Book?

[Bubbalou]

 

Ok...so Denny signs and sends a photo of every guitar he sends out...that still doesn't make him a master luthier and still doesn't negate the fact that it's a $100 guitar (Denny's cost) made in Indonesia. Oh..sorry yours is a solid top right? So that makes it a $200 guitar. He sells the $100 all laminate "Martin" Sigma DM-1's for $500....sheeshe dude....I am sincerely glad you love the ZAD80CE...it's probably a nice guitar and apparently so are $800 Blueridge's but I wouldn't buy one of those either. When I was in the mail order scam business we used to sell "Rare & Ancient coins for $80 to $100 a pop and include a nice color folio with the history of the "Rare and Ancient" coin. The company I worked for would pay $5 to $7 for the coin which were easily obtained from international coin dealers. The plastic coin holder that the coin was encased in cost .05 cents. The cost of the each folio was about $1.00. It cost about $2 to send it to the customer...Ok...now we are up to a cost of approx $10 for each $100 "Rare and Ancient" coin. Oh yeah by the way I was the one who signed the name of some dead coin expert on the "Certificate of Authenticity" for each coin. This is what Zager does. He buys guitars inexpensively from Indonesia that are made in a factory, signs them and then sells them at a huge markup. It's called capitalism. Before the internet the mail order company I worked for would mail out 250,000 mass junk mailings. Generally 5% of the people would be sucked in by the fancy words and color brochure....thats 12,500 people. I imagine Denny is very well off now that he has the limitless advertisment possibilities of the internet.

 

 

Thanks Oldguitarplayer, I know you are trying to help, and I know that in all probability some of what you say may be true. I am not justifying him if he does unscrupulous stuff (and don't know if he does) but only stating that if my guitar looks, sounds, and plays as good as other guitars in it's range and better than many sub $600 guitars (Masterbuilt not included) then I got my monies worth I feel.

 

I have come to know that many here feel they have been overun in the past with "company or companies" posting about or pushing their product.

I wasn't here then to experience this but what happened to me when I first posted about my ZAD 80CE guitar on this forum was not justified in my eyes. I am an innoscent individual that just wanted to join in the fun of this forum and tell people how happy I was with the purchase of my guitar, just like so many others here. What I got was both barrels of a shotgun shoved down my throat and "Leave here boy, your not wanted, we don't like shills on this here forum" (my words to get my feelings across).

[17.817]

 

[Bubbalou]

 

 

Who could play better than me. He only told me that on the way out while carrying the Crate amp I bought as I was carrying my guitar.

 

You people have got to stop truncating my words to make a statement that is no where near what I meant. I do hear you though about GC sales people. Most are young with little knowledge. This guy was in his late 30's and very helpful and could play well. I typically don't give them the time of day.

[daklander]

 

ROTFLMAO

[Crab_Cake]

Man I can't believe that people are getting angry at OT threads when stuff like this exists.

 

WHO CARES!

 

Bubbalou I am stoked that you like your Zager. Please stop bringing these threads up though.

 

This has been hashed and rehashed so many times.

 

!

[daklander]

Bubbalou... Love your guitar and play the hell out of it. Do something on the VOM1T with it. Show pictures of your guitar. Just please stop trying to convince us that you got a great deal, even though you may think so. The more you try convince anyone of the great deal you got the less credibility you have. It again boils down to the marketing tactics and lies that have be espoused that are the problem, not the guitars. We don't doubt you have one that plays well, sounds good and one you like. More power to you. You probably have one in a million.

You keep going on about trying all the guitars in other places and none of them play the same, nor do they sound the the same. Of course not. Different strings are one obvious difference, as is the gauges and you're comparing apples to oranges.

I would suggest that the vast majority of the other brands you've test played at GC have old strings and .012 or .013 gauge strings, and, particularly with Martins, will have a higher setup because it's always easier to lower action than raise it. Your guitar came with .010s and a, purportedly, low, special, set up. (Though there is strong indication that is not true.)

[Bubbalou]

 

Bubbalou ... Love your guitar and play the hell out of it. Do something on the VOM1T with it. Show pictures of your guitar. Just please stop trying to convince us that you got a great deal, even though you may think so. The more you try convince anyone of the great deal you got the less credibility you have. It again boils down to the marketing tactics and lies that have be espoused that are the problem, not the guitars. We don't doubt you have one that plays well, sounds good and one you like. More power to you. You probably have one in a million. You keep going on about trying all the guitars in other places and none of them play the same, nor do they sound the the same. Of course not. Different strings are one obvious difference, as is the gauges and you're comparing apples to oranges. I would suggest that the vast majority of the other brands you've test played at GC have old strings and .012 or .013 gauge strings, and, particularly with Martins, will have a higher setup because it's always easier to lower action than raise it. Your guitar came with .010s and a, purportedly, low, special, set up. (Though there is strong indication that is not true.)

 

 

 

Sir, I am as sick about this stuff as you are. If you will notice, almost all of my posts have been in reply to you guys posting stuff first.

I have to ask you why do you feel you can throw barbs out then when I respond in defense to my guitar I love you say "You have to stop trying to convince us". I am not trying to convince you of anything. You already have your minds made up. I am only trying to show "new" people who read this stuff that you are biased and have an agenda concerning Zager and his guitars. If you could leave it to what you feel are Mr. Zager's practices and stop putting out stuff that gives people the impression that I an other owners (talking about the better Zager guitars and not the "Martin" lowend stuff) guitars are nothing but mere $100 asian guitars that cannot and could not concevably rival your blessed Martin, Taylor and others then I would not say a thing.

The ball is in your park, not mine. I am only responding to your continual bashing and "verbal" (as in posted word) abuse here.

I have said before, stop posting this stuff and so would I but you guys seem to be on a mission or have an agenda here.

[totamus]

Buba how about a pic of your guitars?

[Brokepick]

....I am only trying to show "new" people who read this stuff that you are biased and have an agenda concerning Zager and his guitars.....

 

We are biased and have an agenda? And you aren't?

 

Any "new" people coming here deserve to receive unbiased objective information about purchasing a guitar. Nobody has heard much of that from Z@ger supporters around here.

[17.817]

 

Sir, I am as sick about this stuff as you are. If you will notice, almost all of my posts have been in reply to you guys posting stuff first. I have to ask you why do you feel you can throw barbs out then when I respond in defense to my guitar I love you say "You have to stop trying to convince us". I am not trying to convince you of anything. You already have your minds made up. I am only trying to show "new" people who read this stuff that you are biased and have an agenda concerning Zager and his guitars. If you could leave it to what you feel are Mr. Zager's practices and stop putting out stuff that gives people the impression that I an other owners (talking about the better Zager guitars and not the "Martin" lowend stuff) guitars are nothing but mere $100 asian guitars that cannot and could not concevably rival your blessed Martin, Taylor and others then I would not say a thing. The ball is in your park, not mine. I am only responding to your continual bashing and "verbal" (as in posted word) abuse here. I have said before, stop posting this stuff and so would I but you guys seem to be on a mission or have an agenda here.

 

 

Bubbalou, you strike me as a nice, intelligent guy and I apologize for clipping one of your posts above and perhaps taking a segment out of context. In doing so I sincerely meant no offense to you. The humor I saw in that bolded segment of your post had absolutely nothing to do with you or Z**** owners (not from my perspective or intent, in any case), but rather with the irony of citing a GC employee's observation in order to bolster an argument on either side of a dispute about the big Z. It has been my observation that on this forum, GC salespeople tend to take an asskicking to be outdone only by those afforded to Denny and Esteban. I couldn't help but be struck by the comic irony, but the joke was not aimed at you.

 

As for the larger issue of Z**** hate, I'm afraid that is simply not something that will ever be lost to this forum. People here are telling the truth when they say that it is Z's flagrantly misleading and deceptive claims that engender so much contempt, not the guitars themselves nor their owners. I am not trying to be argumentative here. I just think you will enjoy this forum much more if you relieve yourself of the responsibility to defend Z's practices, instrument quality, etc. Expecting this kind of mob reaction to the utterance of Z**** in ANY context to change, ever, is just unrealistic. I am not saying that in defense of the reaction. Nor do I condemn it. It just is what it is. It's like entering a forum on the mideast crisis and actually expecting to achieve some kind of resolution through verbal exchange. So I think the ball really is just as well in your court: What kind of experience do you want to have on this forum? The reality is that if you choose to put yourself in the position of Z**** defender (I KNOW that is not the case, but it is nevertheless the inescapable perception), you are outnumbered by the mob and you will exhaust yourself with repetitive defenses before they ever break a sweat. You will not be convinced to hate your guitar and you will convince no one to love Z. Both sides will become further entrenched in their current opinions and there will only be more of the perpetual back and forth you see here.

 

You are not being forced to respond, you are choosing to do so. I'm not saying that is wrong of you, only that it is a choice. If you continue to make the same choice, you will only get more of the same response. I cannot fathom why anyone would want that. I for one would be interested in hearing what you think about other guitar related topics. Again, you seem like a good guy (as near as anyone can tell in a forum like this) and I think you are being wasted on this trap of trying to reconcile what is unreconcilable.

[Bubbalou]

 

Bubbalou, you strike me as a nice, intelligent guy and I apologize for clipping one of your posts above and perhaps taking a segment out of context. In doing so I sincerely meant no offense to you. The humor I saw in that bolded segment of your post had absolutely nothing to do with you or Z**** owners (not from my perspective or intent, in any case), but rather with the irony of citing a GC employee's observation in order to bolster an argument on either side of a dispute about the big Z. It has been my observation that on this forum, GC salespeople tend to take an asskicking to be outdone only by those afforded to Denny and Esteban. I couldn't help but be struck by the comic irony, but the joke was not aimed at you. As for the larger issue of Z**** hate, I'm afraid that is simply not something that will ever be lost to this forum. People here are telling the truth when they say that it is Z's flagrantly misleading and deceptive claims that engender so much contempt, not the guitars themselves nor their owners. I am not trying to be argumentative here. I just think you will enjoy this forum much more if you relieve yourself of the responsibility to defend Z's practices, instrument quality, etc. Expecting this kind of mob reaction to the utterance of Z**** in ANY context to change, ever, is just unrealistic. I am not saying that in defense of the reaction. Nor do I condemn it. It just is what it is. It's like entering a forum on the mideast crisis and actually expecting to achieve some kind of resolution through verbal exchange. So I think the ball really is just as well in your court: What kind of experience do you want to have on this forum? The reality is that if you choose to put yourself in the position of Z**** defender (I KNOW that is not the case, but it is nevertheless the inescapable perception), you are outnumbered by the mob and you will exhaust yourself with repetitive defenses before they ever break a sweat. You will not be convinced to hate your guitar and you will convince no one to love Z. Both sides will become further entrenched in their current opinions and there will only be more of the perpetual back and forth you see here. You are not being forced to respond, you are choosing to do so. I'm not saying that is wrong of you, only that it is a choice. If you continue to make the same choice, you will only get more of the same response. I cannot fathom why anyone would want that. I for one would be interested in hearing what you think about other guitar related topics. Again, you seem like a good guy (as near as anyone can tell in a forum like this) and I think you are being wasted on this trap of trying to reconcile what is unreconcilable.

 

 

 

Point and advise well taken and accepted.

Thank you for taking the time to express your concerns.

I will cease to fire back for the sake of this forum

[daklander]

Sir,.......I am only trying to show "new" people who read this stuff that you are biased and have an agenda concerning Zager and his guitars.......

First off, don't call me sir. I work for a living......

Secondly you've again missed the point. It's not the guitars it's the marketing scam.

How many times does that have to be brought about before it gets your attention, among others?????

It's also apparent that you've not read what I have written above as well as in other posts.

I'm really happy that you have a guitar that you like. Really! Good for you. Everyone needs a guitar they love.

I challenge you to do a complete measurement of your string science guitar and post the results here. That includes string spacing, c/c, action and relief. There's already one post with that particular Z guitar's specs and they match the specs on my normal player with one exception. I use a larger gauge string on that guitar.

[Bubbalou]

Hi daklander. I do not need to do measurements to support or disprove the "String Science". Playing several guitars here is what I have found to date:

 

a. The string width is similar to some of the guitars I played.

b. The action is no better than some Martin, Taylor, Breedloves or Seagulls I have played. Notice I said some. As you and I both know each guitar plays on it's merits or detriments.

c. Some Breedloves and a couple Martins have scalloped bracing which allows the top to vibrate more and can allow you to use a smaller guage string to sound as full so this is nothing new.

d. The neck is flattened slightly on the back side (supposedly to make it easier to finger the strings). The Court is still out on this one so far.

 

Now for the part that I do not see on others and was surprised (actually, initially sceptical about):

a. The string is wound above the tuning key's hole to reduce the downward pressure on the nut. In the past if you did not get good downward force the string would not sound quite right on the first 4 or 5 frets (not all but some strings would not). The bridge saddle is apparently intonated to compensate for this (this is my thoughts not Zagers. I am stumped really as to how the strings do not show tonal problems with the string not supplying sufficient downward force but it seems to be doing so).

b. The above winding method helps reduce string binding on the nut (which "seems" to help it stay in tune considerably longer).

 

Those are my thoughts on the subject in reply to your request.

[arzy]

What an incredible observation! Hope you don't mind me running with your idea!

 

That's hilarious! You made me laugh out loud with that one! I like the attention to detail (not just changing the title but also inserting other text).

[Galabar]

What would you estimate the Zager modifications as being worth? For example, say a used Seagull S6 would have a final price on Ebay of around $225. What would you pay for a Zager modified Seagull S6? Maybe $250?

[Etienne Rambert]

I just don't get it. What's wrong with making a guitar easier to play?

If Zager can do that - more power to him. I hope he makes a mint.

If he doesn't - shame on him. But why throw chairs around?

 

I see nothing wrong with easy action.