It's Official! I asked Zager for a Refund

[valentsgrif]

With all this advertising and commercial fraud, especially using the mail, I'm surprised at the lack of prosecution and injunction.

 

I for one would could possibly benefit from some court ordered disgorgment of profits.

 

Meanwhile, banks, oil companies, universities, insurance companies are ripping folks off left and right, and our little sewing circle here is troubled by "all wood construction".

[valentsgrif]

Well, after a little detective work, I have found the answers. Not only that I now have the recipe for Denny's String Science. Yes, Mr. Zager applied for 2 patents. He tried to patent what appears to be a standard design shubb capo, which we needn't bother with and a Patent application for his world famous Guitar String Science which yields an EZ-Play guitar (you'll find them over by the EZ-Bake Ovens). His patent application titled "Guitar Assembly and Method of Making the Same" was submitted on Jun 4 2004. It details several breakthroughs in guitar technology. Specifically, it describes a Nut, A saddle, a Neck angle, and a truss rod. Stunning! The application even list measurements for these in very general terms (like "no less than" and "about"). It seems that Denny actually tried to patent a standard set up. Problem with patent applications is that anyone can try to patent anything. I could make a patent application for sliced bread, but it would ultimately be rejected. Which, coincidentally is what happened to Denny's little patent fiasco. It was rejected on 02/05/08. ANy claims on Dennys web site (or elsewhere) for a patented process are out and out lies. The process was temporarily under the status of "Patent applied for" but was never patented. It was never in any danger of being patented either, as the patent office realized, since all Denny Zager does is a set up just like every other setup in the world. Of course he takes his action lower (beyond what is recommended for good practice BTW). My proof? Glad you asked. Here is the Patent app: Patent App and here is the rejection :

 

My response: For Zager to claim on the website that his technique is patented is a false representation of fact which is deceptive.

 

My God, there is no Santa Claus.

[HankGator]

Again, I point to the money-back guarantee. For the people who get really upset, it's hard for them to maintain that anger if they get there money back.

 

Human nature being what it is, however, most won't bother.

 

And, really? Banks, oil companies, universities and insurance companies are ripping folks off left and right? Nothing like a nice vague, overly-broad counter-allegation to deflect attention from the issue at hand.

[Brokepick]

With all this advertising and commercial fraud, especially using the mail, I'm surprised at the lack of prosecution and injunction. I for one would could possibly benefit from some court ordered disgorgment of profits. Meanwhile, banks, oil companies, universities, insurance companies are ripping folks off left and right, and our little sewing circle here is troubled by "all wood construction".

 

I've been had!

 

I believed you had no motive to defend Zager but your like for your guitar.

 

He isn't in jail, so he must be honest. Excuse me. That's your argument?

 

I can't figure what reason you could possibly have that would motivate you to present such desperate arguments defending the indefensible.

[totamus]

 

No guitar is "solid wood" they are all an assemblage of pieces. Just what "solid wood" means to you is open to subjective interpretation. Plus, many a guitar seller: Musician's friend etc., describes acoustics as "solid spruce top/mahagony back and sides" without stating that the back and sides are laminates anywhere in the add. l

 

 

If DZ followed the accepted convention (not mentioning specifically solid wood means it isn't) I would have no problem. But he touts "Solid wood construction". If MF had a banner of "Solid Wood Construction!" and then shipped laminated guitars, there would be an outrage and a lot of returned guitars. It is not a subjective interpretation, it is a misrepresentation and a deliberate attempt to deceive.

[valentsgrif]

Then if they can get their money back if they find themselves deceived, whats the harm?

Obviously if they don't send it back they must like the purchase for the price.

 

It seems the whole point of everyone's hostility is to protect the innocent from Zager. These innocents are either happy with what they got and don't need protection, or if torqued out by the deception, then can readily return same without cost.

 

I'm not for lying to sell crap. I presume Zager either intentionally or negligently used the term patented as a verb meaning to file for a patent. Now that its been rejected several months ago, it should be removed.

 

Zager is just a successful turd polisher. He will stand or fail over the test of time just like any other business. His success to date is doubtfully predicated upon ad terms like solid woods or patented, but more likely (as I have found) his success derives from delivering what he promised.

[riffmeister]

Good work, Totamus!

 

 

Now Denny can use the phrase:

 

'Patent Applied For'

 

Just like Gibson!!

[totamus]

 

Then if they can get their money back if they find themselves deceived, whats the harm? Obviously if they don't send it back they must like the purchase for the price. It seems the whole point of everyone's hostility is to protect the innocent from Zager. These innocents are either happy with what they got and don't need protection, or if torqued out by the deception, then can readily return same without cost. I'm not for lying to sell crap. I presume Zager either intentionally or negligently used the term patented as a verb meaning to file for a patent. Now that its been rejected several months ago, it should be removed. Zager is just a successful turd polisher. He will stand or fail over the test of time just like any other business. His success to date is doubtfully predicated upon ad terms like solid woods or patented, but more likely (as I have found) his success derives from delivering what he promised.

 

 

The problem is that many who buy the Zagers are not experienced and don't know they have been taken advantage of, so they seek no recourse. You, as I recall, knew exactly what you were getting and was willing to pay the extra for a reeally fast set-up. You were the exception.

 

The problem on this forum is that people come here and ask for advice. They realize that they don't have a lot of knowledge and they come and ask us, over and over, the same questions about what to buy. We answer them all becasue we were new once also. They ask hoping for good advice, and that is really all the whole Zager issue is about. Helping those who ask.

 

A majority of us are simply trying to give good advice, but a few are trying to deliberately misinform for a profit motive, and a few feel under attack because they own the product whose marketing tactics has been so vilified.

 

No affront to you - really. I appreciate you admiting that Zager's "claim on the website that his technique is patented is a false representation of fact which is deceptive." That had to be tough. The guitars are ok in a certain price range. People like you who can't find a good local luthier and don't mind paying the extra $ is probably a good fit. Or even Like Buba, who, as far as I can tell, compares the sound of a amplified Zager to other amplified acoustics and finds a favorable comparison.

 

But for the lion's share of newbie buyers out there - the Zager guitar is not a good deal, and it shouldn't be recommended.

[totamus]

Good work, Totamus! Now Denny can use the phase: 'Patent Applied For' Just like Gibson!!

 

the patent application was rejected. I am no patent attorny, but I believe they cant even use "Pat. Applied for" since the final rejection was mailed in May of this year.

[HankGator]

I think Zager markets to the uninitiated. His money-back guarantee is a safe-harbor that protects him from fraud allegations but also emboldens him to market aggressively and deceptively without compunction. There is a calculation in play. If only one in ten or even one if five people will bother to return a guitar, for example, it is lucrative to push the edges of honesty because 80% or 90% of the extra sales you make will be profit you can keep.

 

And I don't think Zager guitars are awful instruments. The people who own them, usually inexperienced guitarists, aren't going to have any reason to hate them. They are just extremely overpriced and are passed off as something they are not to people who don't know any better. They are not comparable to "Martin's most expensive guitars." They are not "solid wood construction." They don't have the seal of approval from real magazines. They're an inexpensive import guitar that no guitar store could sell for a price that would make Zager any money compared to selling them himself at inflated prices, targeted at beginners who've picked up "real" guitars and gotten sore fingers. They have extra-light strings (.10s), a lower-than-normal action, lowered fret wires, and a tiny bit of extra spacing between each string compared to a standard guitar of the same neck-width. These are all qualities that appeal mostly to people who are just beginning and want it to be as easy as possible. There's nothing inherently wrong with any of it, IMO, except for the way the marketing preys on the relative ignorance of the target consumer who doesn't know any better. No real guitar player would ever compare a Zager to a high-end Martin. No real publication has even bothered to review them. People are overpaying based upon a false, misleading set of claims, even if the guitar they're getting is, or would be, half-way decent as an inexpensive import.

[valentsgrif]

I have got to get out of here, but

 

I don't believe overpaying is anything unusual and no one has a gun to their head to buy. Yes, facts should not be trifled with. But wtf, let the marketplace handle "over paying" for such a discretionary item.

 

I wasn't facetious when I suggested someone buy a bunch of epiphones, lower the action, ala string science, and undercut Zager. I'd love it. I have no allegence to Zager at all. I'd buy a $300 Yammie or Epi with an action like my Zad 50 in a heart beat. Make me one in a short scale orchestra.

 

Thats the remedy. Free market baby.

 

The posts on here have not always centered on the language of Z's website. I've read on here how Zager takes a $100 guitar and charges $600, I've heard they he ruins the frets, doesn't do anything to improve the sound, they sound like cardboard, fret buzz up and down the neck, etc. Not on mine, not on Bubbalou's or TCBronson's or the other Zager owners I've met over the years.

 

We debate and provide opinions. My opinion is that if you can afford it and want a no hassle guitar to jump start your learning, Zager is a reasonable option. YMMV. Are there more economical options? Yes, and all are posted readily.

But the crap about how the git sucks....Not fair and can only be attributed to a demented attempt to try and make a happy Zager owner feel bad about his purchase. (and it works. I have pm's from people who have felt stupid for liking their guitar).

 

A modest proposal; next time a noob asks about what guitar is good to learn on, and if someone says try a Zager, be fair. Offer that the website is loaded with exagerations and misstatements. Offer that it is overpriced in your opinion, but at least acknowledge that some folks like 'em, enjoy them and feel they have gotten what they paid for.

[daklander]

 

..... A modest proposal; next time a noob asks about what guitar is good to learn on, and if someone says try a Zager, be fair. Offer that the website is loaded with exagerations and misstatements. Offer that it is overpriced in your opinion, but at least acknowledge that some folks like 'em, enjoy them and feel they have gotten what they paid for.

 

 

That, I believe, is just what would occur if the shills stayed out of the equation.

[riffmeister]

 

the patent application was rejected. I am no patent attorny, but I believe they cant even use "Pat. Applied for" since the final rejection was mailed in May of this year.

 

 

Saying "Patent Applied For", even though it was ultimately rejected, is still more truthful than many other statements on the Z**** website. (sad but true!!)

[Brokepick]

 

That, I believe, is just what would occur if the shills stayed out of the equation.

 

 

Exactly! There will probably be a few members that say the guitars are no good, but the majority only have issues with the marketing practices.

 

Interestingly, I am aware of a couple of other forums where the obvious shills are promptly banned, and their posts deleted, not that I necessarily advocate doing that here.

[Sangemon]

Exactly! There will probably be a few members that say the guitars are no good, but the majority only have issues with the marketing practices. Interestingly, I am aware of a couple of other forums where the obvious shills are promptly banned, and their posts deleted, not that I necessarily advocate doing that here.

 

Why would we do that?!? We got 13 pages here, going for 20!

 

[Broadus]

 

Thats the remedy. Free market baby.

 

 

I'm all for free market. No one, as far as I can remember, that Denny should be banned from selling guitars. Part of a free market, IMO, is an open discussion about the seller's product and promises.

 

 

 

A modest proposal; next time a noob asks about what guitar is good to learn on, and if someone says try a Zager, be fair. Offer that the website is loaded with exagerations and misstatements. Offer that it is overpriced in your opinion, but at least acknowledge that some folks like 'em, enjoy them and feel they have gotten what they paid for.

 

 

That's fair. Plenty of responses have been just that. Many who have a problem with Denny's marketing acknowledge that some folks enjoy their Zager gits. I think a lot of the hyperbole contra Denny is a reaction to the incessant drivel coming from obvious shills. A way to tell a shill is that he will never acknowledge any wrongdoing or problem on Denny's part. On the other hand, quite a few who find Zagers wanting and Denny's marketing offensive do acknowledge that Zagers are not Estebans, that they are in fact decent guitars.

 

Some of us have to watch every dime we spend, so we hate to see folks overpay. If they want to overpay because of whatever reason, that's one thing. We just want them to have their eyes open.

 

Best,

Bill

[Gary Palmer]

IMHO it certainly appears that Zager targets novice players, while playing upon his fifteen minutes of fame, an autograph and marketing hype. They may very well be reasonably built instruments, but guitars of the same build and set-up standard are available for far less.

 

Something's sadly wrong with their bracing set-up if Zager instruments can only handle 11's at the most. Low action and heavier string gauges normally work better incomparison to lighter gauged strings.

 

I know it all basically boils down to price and product justification on the buyer's end of the stick and it's a situation regarding buyer beware, but (Miss-representation of facts or exageration aside) there's a point where experienced guitarists can't justify paying through the nose for something that's all too readily available for a fraction of the price.

 

Most guitars can be set-up to play like butter if you're willing to either spend a little time making a few adjustments yourself, or take your instrument to a tech and pay him/her a fee. Yamaha (Yes, Yamaha again lol), Tanglewood, Crafter, etc., produce high quality instruments possessing virtually identical set-up characteristics (To Zager) direct from the factory for much less.

 

DIY or pay a tech a comparitively small amount and any action/set-up issues can literally be resolved within a matter of minutes.

[Ohioarrow]

Seems a consensus has been reached.....

[vettemaster]

Good luck, I asked for a refund or either fix my guitar and the answer was I ruined the guitar with humidity. The electronics do not work either and the high E buzzes and I can not adjust it all out. They told me it was my fault.

[Queequeg]

 

I got a reply within 10 minutes. Check it out!!! Hi John, If I'm correct I show that you made your original purchase over 1 year ago. He said if you are truly unhappy with your guitar we will accept it back. As this is Denny's last year producing guitars we have customers waiting for even the used ones.

 

Get 'em while they're hot, folks.

Line forms @ the left.

EDIT:

DOH! I didn't look @ the date on page one.

Hey, 2.5 years later there's still time, if you hurry.

[kwakatak]

ZOMBIE POST!!!!