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It's Official! I asked Zager for a Refund


jtjpilot

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Well, I have been on vacation in Ashville NC for a week, and not keeping up. But I do want to say few things about Zagers and the threads that just wont die. BTW - Ashville has an incredible music scene!


I am beginning to believe, rightly or wrongly, that there are two types of Zager shills. The gushing, over the top, Zager walks on water, variety, and the "Zagers are ok, but the return policy and customer service are the best" variety.


I have been playing guitar for over 35 years, I have learned a lot and know a good bit. I bow to some (FK, and other luthiers), see eye to eye with some, and try to give sage advice to others.


I will say without any fear of being hateful or uninformed that Zager guitars are not worth the price charged, and that they are more a creation of marketing and misrepresentation than they are of substance.


I am sorry if there are any legitimate Zager owners who feels this slights them. If you bought a Zager, you were misled, and it is not easy to tell someone that they have not made a great buying decision. Welcome to the forum, and we will help you not be misled again. You weren't misled becasue were not intelligent, you were misled becasue you believed the marketing claims of Zager.


Now an admission. I have owned a Zager. I bought it used for my son precisely becasue he had tender fingers and I hoped it would help him keep up with it. It was a Sigma with a Zager setup, and on the used market didn't command that much, so I wasn't out as much as I could be. We kept it for less than a year because it sounded like a cardboard box. It also buzzed if you had a strong attack. It was what I would consider a "light fingerpicking setup". It was never a possible keeper.


He now has a Martin DM which I gave him (along with a set-up) and he loves it.


What Zager does, and the way he preys on the uniformed is reprehensible. We are a community here in the forum and a community watches out for their members. That is why so many attack the shills that are trying to convince newbies that Zagers are worthwhile. There is no brand hatred, there is genuine concern for other members.


I will always respond to Zager promotion with a negative response. And I hope others do too. It is all about sending Zager packing by making this forum off limits for his marketing tactics.


If anyone else cares to do the same, you want to consider Google results. Your search item is returned followed by a handful of words after the search term. So in your post, you will want to to immediately follow a mention of "Zager" with a negative (but true) comment. Example "Zager guitars are a rip off". That gets the whole negative message in a google search result and hopefully gets a potential buyer thinking twice, and maybe keeps them from being taken advantage of.


I would like to think Buba is not a shill, but he is certainly promoting for all he is worth. I have this to say to you Buba, I offer many years of experience, and often recommend guitars in that price range. I recommend guitars that are good values. You are either extremely thin skinned or you are a shill. You seem to want to take factual assertions concerning Zager as personal affronts that must be "corrected". If you want the benefit of many years of experience, thats fine, we will help you. If you are happy with your Zager, that is wonderful too, enjoy it and play it. Post some on the VOM with it. But please stop promoting a brand that is not respected by any serious acoustic player.


I can't think of a single performer, Luthier, magazine, or store that has ever offered a positive review. Nobody likes to be in a position of telling another that the item they purchased is inferior an many ways, so it is difficult to do. It is just as difficult to be a man about it and realize that your guitar was not a good deal. Yes it is an instrument that is playable. So are sub-$200 Yamahas. If somebody started installing "certified Mojo" in Yamahas and then reselling the $200 instruments for $600 there would be just as much dislike for that reseller.


There is a lot of experience here, and most of us will bend over backwards to help a new guitarist along. Friends don't let friends buy Zagers. I am sorry that you were mislead by Zager. You should be mad at him, not the forum - unless your motives are not as they appear.

 

 

 

Excellent post, well said -- except for paragraph 11. Bubbalou seems no more fanatical than plenty of people who say their guitar, or favorite model car, or football team, or band, or whatever, rocks, and care enough to correct people who make misstatements.

 

I know -- now I'm a shill-shill, because I pop up defending an accused shill!!

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I just want to echo Totamus's post. As I posted a few months ago, I was a typical Z@ger victim. I consider myself a reasonably intelligent person. I often do my research by Google searches and usually that serves me well. But Z@ger people have somehow found a way to push the searches toward only positive feedback and reviews. It was only after doing more in depth research that I came across this website and got the truth.

 

I for one and so grateful I did. I bought a Larrivee L-03 for actually $100 less than the ZAD80. Any review that says the Z@ger sounds better than my Larrivee is pure BS. I never would have even heard of Larrivee or Notable Guitars if it were not for this website.

 

I know some may think the Z@ger bashers are mean, heartless, and cruel. But I think they are doing everyone a service by helping the less informed to not be scammed. It's incredible to read through the negative reviews on this website going back over 4 years. Very consistent, from multiple posters. The only positive reviews on this site or any others all seem to have been written from the same source.

 

The only thing positive I do have to say about Z@ger is that they do honor their 100% guarantee with free shipping both ways. I frankly don't know how they can stay in business. Maybe that's why Denny is "retiring."

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Congrats on the Larrivee, Phil. Good post, too.

 

I think Zager has prospered because their markup is so substantial they can accept a few guitars back and still come out way ahead. Most folks won't send them back because they are playable and the buyers don't know any better. Most don't do much research but fall for the gimmickry advertising.

 

Bill

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I just want to echo Totamus's post. As I posted a few months ago, I was a typical Z@ger victim. I consider myself a reasonably intelligent person. I often do my research by Google searches and usually that serves me well. But Z@ger people have somehow found a way to push the searches toward only positive feedback and reviews. It was only after doing more in depth research that I came across this website and got the truth.


I for one and so grateful I did. I bought a Larrivee L-03 for actually $100 less than the ZAD80. Any review that says the Z@ger sounds better than my Larrivee is pure BS. I never would have even heard of Larrivee or Notable Guitars if it were not for this website.


I know some may think the Z@ger bashers are mean, heartless, and cruel. But I think they are doing everyone a service by helping the less informed to not be scammed. It's incredible to read through the negative reviews on this website going back over 4 years. Very consistent, from multiple posters. The only positive reviews on this site or any others all seem to have been written from the same source.

 

It's a story like that which makes the struggle worth it, doesn't it totamus?

 

Dang happy you hooked into the Larrivee, I assume it's doing well for you? Play on...

 

:thu:

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It is worth keeping in mind that Zager sells direct, so the mark-up for him is from his cost to full retail, with no wholesale pricing. The margin therefore is probably a good bit higher than for a normal guitar manufacturer who has to sell it wholesale for around half of what the retailer will list it for. You have to figure his cost per unit for the ZAD50 can't be more than a hundred and fifty bucks, tops.

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I know -- now I'm a shill-shill, because I pop up defending an accused shill!!

 

The only way to find out if someone is a shill is to burn them at the stake. :cop:

 

Seriously, it has been my experience that a civilized discussion talking about facts of a matter usually brings out the truth. (I'm talking about Z*ger guitars, not whether you are a shill)

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I just want to echo Totamus's post. As I posted a few months ago, I was a typical Z@ger victim. I consider myself a reasonably intelligent person. I often do my research by Google searches and usually that serves me well. But Z@ger people have somehow found a way to push the searches toward only positive feedback and reviews. It was only after doing more in depth research that I came across this website and got the truth.


I for one and so grateful I did. I bought a Larrivee L-03 for actually $100 less than the ZAD80. Any review that says the Z@ger sounds better than my Larrivee is pure BS. I never would have even heard of Larrivee or Notable Guitars if it were not for this website.


I know some may think the Z@ger bashers are mean, heartless, and cruel. But I think they are doing everyone a service by helping the less informed to not be scammed. It's incredible to read through the negative reviews on this website going back over 4 years. Very consistent, from multiple posters. The only positive reviews on this site or any others all seem to have been written from the same source.


The only thing positive I do have to say about Z@ger is that they do honor their 100% guarantee with free shipping both ways. I frankly don't know how they can stay in business. Maybe that's why Denny is "retiring."

 

 

Thank you! Your post makes the effort worthwhile!

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Where are the facts in response to my request for someone showing me a site or link where solid top Sigmas sold (not clearance!) for $200?

 

Where are the facts in response to my request for an established shop local to me (NYC/Long Island) who will do an acoustic set up, with new strings, for $50 or under?

 

The whole premise of Zager hate is based on the assumption that anybody in the know would be able to readily get these things at these prices.

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Where are the facts in response to my request for someone showing me a site or link where solid top Sigmas sold (not clearance!) for $200?


Where are the facts in response to my request for an established shop local to me (NYC/Long Island) who will do an acoustic set up, with new strings, for $50 or under?


The whole premise of Zager Hate is based on the assumption that anybody in the know would be able to readily get these things at these prices.

 

The "whole premise of the Zager Hate" is not that you can get the same guitar for less. It's the Deceptive Presentation on their Website as well as the Deceptive Manipulation of Google and other Fake "reviews" in order to get people to overpay for a markedly overpriced guitar.

 

Because Zagers can only be purchased online, they totally have manipulated the system in their favor to get people to buy their guitars. The more I learn about it, the more horrified and upset:mad: I have become.:mad:

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The "whole premise of the Zager Hate" is not that you can get the same guitar for less. It's the Deceptive Presentation on their Website as well as the Deceptive Manipulation of Google and other Fake "reviews" in order to get people to overpay for a markedly overpriced guitar.


Because Zagers can only be purchased online, they totally have manipulated the system in their favor to get people to buy their guitars. The more I learn about it, the more horrified and upset:mad: I have become.
:mad:

 

Markedly overpriced how? Thats what I'm looking to prove.

 

Also, last I checked deceptive presentation, manipulation and fraud are at worst, crimes and at a minimum, violations of multiple business statutes, state regulations and ebay rules.

 

Has anyone been able to identify any sanctions upheld against Zager?

 

Horrified and upset? I wonder what news about Darfur does to your day?

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Where are the facts in response to my request for someone showing me a site or link where solid top Sigmas sold (not clearance!) for $200?


Where are the facts in response to my request for an established shop local to me (NYC/Long Island) who will do an acoustic set up, with new strings, for $50 or under?


The whole premise of Zager hate is based on the assumption that anybody in the know would be able to readily get these things at these prices.

 

 

Nobody is answering you because your comparisons are crap, based on numbers that I do not think anyone ever actually stated. Further, if you did just a wee bit of research on your own you would have found these guys at http://newyorkguitarrepair.com/_wsn/page2.html for your set up question. Basic setup for $50 - Deluxe for $65. Of course if you spend a few minutes on the Annex and researched there among it's links you'd find most people could do most of that themselves for free. Ohio is not NY and I see signs posted for $35 for a basic setup, different areas, different economies.

 

And by the way, the number most quoted around here for a setup is between $50 and $75. Not $50 or less. (Although one or two have said cheaper, it wasn't the main stay of people here)

 

Next, you should probably know that Sigma is no longer sold retail unless of course you could find someone with a stash of them in the basement or something. Sigma has been going out for years and were finally discontinued in 2007. But you probably know that already since you're insisting on a Non-clearence or sale price and you know that nobody can find them retail. Best that can be done to that end is look around (as you should have done) and find stuff like: http://www.stevesmusiccenter.com/Sigma.html - Furthermore on this issue people were talking about buying a used Sigma for $150-$300 and for that you can look on ebay or craig's list or whatever and find plenty in that price range. People here were saying that Denny's import price was probably $150 to $200 per unit and the rest was mark up. Judging from Steve's place there - who was a reseller of Sigma before they discontinued - I would say that $150 to $200 was probably about right - give or take a few 10 spots.

 

Even at Steve's retail prices, when he had them, that's a far cry from Denny's $800 plus..

 

So the reason people aren't answering you is because you are trying to make a crap arguement on crap factoids. The issue here is that Denny took a low end guitar, created a marketing campaign, mass produced a one setup fits all "science" and BSed the crap out of people into thinking they were buying a porche. Capitalistic marketing at it's finest, great if your're a seller, unfortunate if your a buyer who buys the whole song and dance. But more than all that is this "String Science" crap. It's akin to the statement "She's not a house-maker, she is a Domestic Engineer".

 

Again, this is NOT about the buyers or even the guitars themselves. It about the marketing propaganda and the army of drive-by promoters of the brand that constantly pepper this forum.

 

Apologize for the "Attitude" I apparently seem to have, but I am growing weary of this crap too and tired of some people constantly trying to argue DZ's tactics as defensible and even reasonable. Hell, I think half of the arguement in people is to salvage some resale value and the only way to do that is to convince others that they are holding gold.

 

As far as the people who own them, I got no issues with them, or their guitar. Stop by the porch, I'll hand them a beer and let's get to toe tapping, strumming, and having a good ole time. It's just not an issue in that regard.

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When Sigma was discontinuing it's line of guitars in 2007 you could buy a Sigma DM-1ST on sale from MF online or $199. I believe the regular retail price was $249-$269. The all laminate DM-1 sold for much less than $199. I believe master luthier Denny charges $495 for his "Martin DM" which is really a Sigma DM-1.

 

Now...the luthier I used to bring all my acoustic guitars to charged $85 (not including new strings) for a setup which included adjusting the neck relief properly and action to my personal taste. He would also fix any loose or raised frets and do a fret leveling and re-crowning if needed. This was always done for me within 24 hours. My guitars always played wonderfully..to my standards. I once brought him a 30 year old yamaha FG-331 which was in terrible shape and he made it play like a brand new guitar. No fret buzz (the frets where terrible before he got it) and she played beautifully.

 

If people like their Zager guitars than more power to em'... Personally I just dont see how "string science" is worth $300....

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Where are the facts in response to my request for someone showing me a site or link where solid top Sigmas sold (not clearance!) for $200?


Where are the facts in response to my request for an established shop local to me (NYC/Long Island) who will do an acoustic set up, with new strings, for $50 or under?


The whole premise of Zager hate is based on the assumption that anybody in the know would be able to readily get these things at these prices.

 

 

I don't recall any solid-top Sigma guitars at all being on the wall of any music shop in Columbus, Ohio or the Pocono Mountains or Catskills (spent a lot of time fly fishing back east). These days, it's been so long since I have even seen a Sigma guitar because Martin stopped producing the line to introduce their HPL series.

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Martin stopped producing the Sigma line because they were not well received and didnt bring the image that Martin wanted. Martin did not put their name on the headstock, they were (and are) Sigma guitars which were imported by the Martin company. These very same guitars are the ones that master shillster Denny Zagoff says: " Denny wanted the highest quality guitars for his EZ-Play

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Nobody is answering you because your comparisons are crap, based on numbers that I do not think anyone ever actually stated. Further, if you did just a wee bit of research on your own you would have found these guys at
http://newyorkguitarrepair.com/_wsn/page2.html
for your set up question. Basic setup for $50 - Deluxe for $65.

 

That's Evan Gluck and he's terrific. He does great work and is a super guy. He installed both of my K&Ks and he set up my HD-28 with new strings, fixed my binding nut slot and did a fret leveling and polish for $65. It plays like butter and the intonation has really improved.

 

If you are in New York City I highly recommend him.:thu::thu:

 

And yes, this is a deliberate hijack attempt.:cop:

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The only way to find out if someone is a shill is to burn them at the stake.

 

 

I thought you throw them in a lake -- if they float they're a shill, so you burn them at the stake.

 

If they sink -- apologize to the family.

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I had one of the quality engineers come to me at work today and ask me what I thought about Zager guitars. He had played my Masterbilt guitar a couple of weeks ago and since then, he has not been satisfied with his Art & Lutherie guitar. It sounds like that guitar is not setup well, but, he loved the sound and feel of my guitar. I told him what price to expect for new and used. He's shopping. At any rate, I told him about Denny's marketing methods and the voided warranty with any strings thicker than tens (.010), and he said he didn't want one of those.

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I had one of the quality engineers come to me at work today and ask me what I thought about Zager guitars. He had played my Masterbilt guitar a couple of weeks ago and since then, he has not been satisfied with his Art & Lutherie guitar. It sounds like that guitar is not setup well, but, he loved the sound and feel of my guitar. I told him what price to expect for new and used. He's shopping. At any rate, I told him about Denny's marketing methods and the voided warranty with any strings thicker than tens (.010), and he said he didn't want one of those.

 

 

Do you think he'd be happy with the A&L if he got it set up? That's cheaper than a new guitar, and a damn sight better than you-know-who. Yeah, I know, sacrelige.

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Shilling can go both ways you know.

 

I'm sure if you are a luthier or have a music store, or are employed by one you don't want to lose any of these "naive" customers who might bypass you for a Zager.

 

I can't help but to believe that the irrational amount of time and venemous, negative posting on this guitar is driven by some perception of competition and potiential loss of revenue.

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Shilling can go both ways you know.


I'm sure if you are a luthier or have a music store, or are employed by one you don't want to lose any of these "naive" customers who might bypass you for a Zager.


I can't help but to believe that the irrational amount of time and venemous, negative posting on this guitar is driven by some perception of competition and potiential loss of revenue.

 

 

I have to hand it to you -- You've set the new standard for shill-conspiracy-theory-nuttiness on this site.

 

Now the anti-Zagerites are going to have to get creative to top that one.

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Shilling can go both ways you know.


I'm sure if you are a luthier or have a music store, or are employed by one you don't want to lose any of these "naive" customers who might bypass you for a Zager.


I can't help but to believe that the irrational amount of time and venemous, negative posting on this guitar is driven by some perception of competition and potiential loss of revenue.

 

 

I can't help but think you either miss the whole point Tomas was making about the deceptive marketing, or are just Trolling extra ripe ground.

 

There are cheap guitars out there that aren't made well. I don't think many people feel strongly about them. They are cheap and play cheap. But misleading people into paying a premium for a re-branded guitar with a setup and comparing them as "better then" the industry standard get's people worked up.

 

Your logic about Luthiers is absurd. Guitar repair is a local business so unless Denny clones himself (pause for everyone to shutter) ..... then plants one Denny in each area the luthiers need fear not.

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strang... you know, I was thinking about asking him about that, but, then he told me that his guitar was A&L's low-end guitar and after playing mine, he really loved the action and the sound.

 

I am not a guitar maker and I am not a music store salesman, I've just played for forty years, but, I figure that when someone reacts that way to a guitar, he will most likely think about it until he feels he has to have one.

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I can't help but think you either miss the whole point Tomas was making about the deceptive marketing, or are just Trolling extra ripe ground.


There are cheap guitars out there that aren't made well. I don't think many people feel strongly about them. They are cheap and play cheap. But misleading people into paying a premium for a re-branded guitar with a setup and comparing them as "better then" the industry standard get's people worked up.


Your logic about Luthiers is absurd. Guitar repair is a local business so unless Denny clones himself (pause for everyone to shutter) ..... then plants one Denny in each area the luthiers need fear not.

 

 

Nobody around here every credibly trashed the construction or tone of the Martin Sigmas. In fact they were fairly well received around here for a sub $500 guitar. So, I don't know what the "cheap" talk is all about.

 

And who is mislead? I'd like to see a post somewhere over the last 7 years where someone bitched and said "Crap, I thought I was getting a $1900 Martin and it was just a well set up, but overpriced import".

 

Finally, if these great unwashed innocents who you so earnestly post to protect are happy with their guitar, who cares? If its the fact that it burns you how much a guy is making, then put your green with jealousy hat on and get over it.

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