Avoiding a neck reset on a cheap guitar

[gitnoob]

 

Can't a bridge always be replaced at a later time?

 

 

Yup. And if you shave the bridge, one day you may not be able to shave any more. That's the day you get a neck reset, and you get the bridge replaced at the same time. The neck will be set for the new bridge height.

[Emory]

OOOh did I bring up something wrong? I put my guitar on a diet, and the belly flattened. Not really. But it did flatten for reasons I don't know, so now the action is just fine.

That bridge doctor does look alot like what's in my Breedlove (which had no problems over here, tho it was a concern when I bought it, fyi).

But looking at the bridge doctor site, does it mean you have to cut the guitar in half to install it? Seems that would have a major impact on tone. What do I know?

[Freeman Keller]

 

Can't a bridge always be replaced at a later time?

 

 

Of course it can. Here are the steps. Remove the old one - easy on guitars that use releasable glues like Martin, difficult on those cheap guitars that use epoxies. Clean up the surface of the top under the old bridge - replace any piece of spruce that might have been torn up. Buy or make a new bridge - it must perfectly fit the foot print of the old one - again, pretty easy on a Martin, pretty difficult on a cheapie. Contour it to fit the top radius. Oh yes, if it has a slot, the slot must be in exactly the same location. Oh yes, if it has pin holes they must too. And in fact, the pin holes must be in exactly the correct location relative to the slot. Pretty easy on a Martin. If if has no pin holes or they don't line up, plug the holes in the top and the bridge plate.

 

Now glue the new bridge on, locating the saddle slot perfectly for correct intonation. If you decide to use the pin holes for orientation, it is possible to use something like the little bridge caul that I built. Once the glue is dry and you've cleaned up the squeeze out, drill and/or ream the pin holes. If you didn't preslot the bridge do it now - the cool StewMac router jig makes it a relative snap (I bought one of those to make do a replacement bridge). Make a new saddle with correct intonation. Slot and/or ramp if those are your preferences. Adjust height and other action. Open a cold IPA and play your guitar.

[Freeman Keller]

OOOh did I bring up something wrong? I put my guitar on a diet, and the belly flattened. Not really. But it did flatten for reasons I don't know, so now the action is just fine. That bridge doctor does look alot like what's in my Breedlove (which had no problems over here, tho it was a concern when I bought it, fyi). But looking at the bridge doctor site, does it mean you have to cut the guitar in half to install it? Seems that would have a major impact on tone. What do I know?

 

Did the humidity change?

 

The bridge doctor is designed into the whole Breedlove bracing - if you look the braces are very deeply scalloped. That guitar would fold in half without the 'doc. Some people have used bridge doctors on normally braced guitars, but I have heard them called "tone killers" at the UMGF tech forum. I've given my experience - not only did it not solve the problem on my D12-28, it did destroy the tone. Bridge 'doc went to Gitnoob for mad science experiments.

 

Here is a pic of the doc in a Breedlove from Frank Ford's site, with his comments

 

 

That big thing hanging down is bolted to the bridge, and has a rod that just pushes lightly against the endblock. This unique arrangement completely eliminates the tendency of the bridge to "roll" forward under the string tension. This extra support is how Breedlove can get away with the radical scalloping of the main top braces without structural difficulties.

[bluzboy]

I may have missed something, and I don't mean to veer off-topic, but is there a recommended approach to deal with a bellying problem without resorting to a Bridge Doctor?

 

The reason I ask is that I have a Yamaha FG-200, which I love. It has fantastic tone and the action is not bad at all yet, but I have noticed it's getting a slight belly. I was wondering if there was anything I could do to correct it before it becomes a problem. Someone told me that it could actually be caused by too much humidity (even though I don't think that's the case here), and that keeping it in a dryer environment might help--not exactly something I want to try without verification.

 

Thanks!

[gitnoob]

I may have missed something, and I don't mean to veer off-topic, but is there a recommended approach to deal with a bellying problem without resorting to a Bridge Doctor? The reason I ask is that I have a Yamaha FG-200, which I love. It has fantastic tone and the action is not bad at all yet, but I have noticed it's getting a slight belly. I was wondering if there was anything I could do to correct it before it becomes a problem. Someone told me that it could actually be caused by too much humidity (even though I don't think that's the case here), and that keeping it in a dryer environment might help--not exactly something I want to try without verification.

 

There are two kinds of bellies -- the kind we're talking about that's caused by bridge rotation will have a belly below the bridge and sinking above it. Like this:

 

 

If the action is fine in that case, you don't need to do anything. It's "normal" deformation due to string tension.

 

In the high-humidity case, the entire top will be raised up due to the wood expansion. Not very common here unless you live in a high-humidity environment, and not as bad for the guitar as low humidity.

[Grant Harding]

I find with lam top yamahas they seem to settle down once they get a bit of a bump on, and once you get the action down the bending moment goes away. I haven't had the action change on any of them and it's been years in some cases.

[Grant Harding]

 

Yup. And if you shave the bridge, one day you may not be able to shave any more. That's the day you get a neck reset, and you get the bridge replaced at the same time. The neck will be set for the new bridge height.

 

My whole point is that you can "slot" the bridge down to the bottom of the saddle slots, so you can go as low as you want (and most of the mass of the bridge is retained). I also use my homemade ebony "platemate" things to lock the strings in place.

[Terry Allan Hall]

Perhaps someday, someone will "shine some light" on gitboob, and inform him that a couple of years of reading books and butchering guitars does not make him an authority on the subject of guitar construction and repair.

 

[EdBega]

 

Of course it can. Here are the steps. Remove the old one - easy on guitars that use releasable glues like Martin, difficult on those cheap guitars that use epoxies. Clean up the surface of the top under the old bridge - replace any piece of spruce that might have been torn up. Buy or make a new bridge - it must perfectly fit the foot print of the old one - again, pretty easy on a Martin, pretty difficult on a cheapie. Contour it to fit the top radius. Oh yes, if it has a slot, the slot must be in exactly the same location. Oh yes, if it has pin holes they must too. And in fact, the pin holes must be in exactly the correct location relative to the slot. Pretty easy on a Martin. If if has no pin holes or they don't line up, plug the holes in the top and the bridge plate. Now glue the new bridge on, locating the saddle slot perfectly for correct intonation. If you decide to use the pin holes for orientation, it is possible to use something like the little bridge caul that I built. Once the glue is dry and you've cleaned up the squeeze out, drill and/or ream the pin holes. If you didn't preslot the bridge do it now - the cool StewMac router jig makes it a relative snap (I bought one of those to make do a replacement bridge). Make a new saddle with correct intonation. Slot and/or ramp if those are your preferences. Adjust height and other action. Open a cold IPA and play your guitar.

 

 

Understood, just out of curiosity what's the cost on a bridge replacement?

[bluzboy]

There are two kinds of bellies -- the kind we're talking about that's caused by bridge rotation will have a belly below the bridge and sinking above it. Like this: If the action is fine in that case, you don't need to do anything. It's "normal" deformation due to string tension. In the high-humidity case, the entire top will be raised up due to the wood expansion. Not very common here unless you live in a high-humidity environment, and not as bad for the guitar as low humidity.

 

 

 

Guess I'll just leave her be then. Thanks again, gitnoob!

[Freeman Keller]

Understood, just out of curiosity what's the cost on a bridge replacement?

 

When my D12-28 went in for a neck set the bridge was pulling loose. Kimsey removed it and reglued it - I believe he charged me 40 bucks for that part of the operation. A new bridge from Martin or StewMac runs 15-20, a complete setup is maybe 40 more, so somewhere around a hundred bucks. A cheap guitar like an old Yamie would be much more difficult - the bridge is hard to remove and you can't just go buy a new one that fits. I think it would be cost prohibative.

 

If you remember the Lefty Caper, I got a Martin OM that had the bridge installed incorrectly at the factory (yes, they do that sort of thing). They had rather brutally removed it.

 

 

However that made it a perfect candidate to be converted to a leftie for the daughter of one of our forumites

 

 

I won't tell you the number of hours I have in that refinish.

[jamesp]

 

Understood, just out of curiosity what's the cost on a bridge replacement?

 

 

I paid $100 just last year. This was at a Martin certified shop.

 

Having some experience at this, I'd choose getting the bridge shaved by an excellent luthier over having the neck reset by a mediocre one.

[Yamaneck]

 

I may have missed something, and I don't mean to veer off-topic, but is there a recommended approach to deal with a bellying problem without resorting to a Bridge Doctor? The reason I ask is that I have a Yamaha FG-200, which I love. It has fantastic tone and the action is not bad at all yet, but I have noticed it's getting a slight belly. I was wondering if there was anything I could do to correct it before it becomes a problem. Someone told me that it could actually be caused by too much humidity (even though I don't think that's the case here), and that keeping it in a dryer environment might help--not exactly something I want to try without verification. Thanks!

 

 

If it sounds & plays good, there's no problem. Nothing wrong with a little bit of bellying.

 

When it needs a neck reset, contact me. I do Yamaha neck resets.

[Yamaneck]

Not just a good idea for cheap guitars. Some luthiers charge extra for that feature.

 

Not what the OP was referring to; he's talking about removing bridge wood under the string lie. This guitar shows this to be in between the strings, not under them.

[Yamaneck]

that will work but is still not addressing the problem... sooner or later you are gonna end up with an "S" shaped, unplayable instrument... in stewmac if you look hard enough you will find a thing called the JLD bridge doctor... bridge doctor link ... it is cheap, it addresses the cause of the problem and is basically the same thing used by breedlove in their guitars... i saw a vintage 12 string alvarez... 1972 that was about 9 months pregnant, become a perfectly playable instrument without a neck reset... if you contact the man who made this thing he may cut you a better deal than stewmac... but even at their price it's cheap and beyond that it works...

 

Sorry, JLDs do not magically undo a bad neck set. What they will do is increase volume & sustain, when properly installed & adjusted; when installed & cranked real hard, to pull down a belly that's taken years of set, they don't sound good at all.

 

I've probably installed as many of these as anyone this side of Don Kendall, one of the inventors.

[Yamaneck]

 

If the problem is neck angle, a Bridge Doctor won't do anything at all. In the same vein, if the problem is belly bulge, a neck reset won't solve the problem. A tourniquet won't do anything for a toothache and aspririn won't stop bleeding. The trick (which is no trick at all) is to use the appropriate solution depending on the problem.

 

 

Well said. You know that when you say something that reasonable, though, you're going to get jumped on...

[Yamaneck]

When the belly goes up, the neck angle goes down, and the action goes up. It's often made worse by the neck sinking into the sound hole. Bottom line: a neck reset rarely has anything to do with the neck changing. It's the top that gets deformed, leading to the need for a neck reset.

 

I'm curious--how many neck resets have you done?

[gitnoob]

I'm curious--how many neck resets have you done?

 

Hey, Yamaneck. Thanks for asking. So far, I've only built two instruments (new neck sets), and reset two necks, but I have a modest collection of vintage ladder-braced parlors.

 

Are you familiar with ladder-braced parlors? If so, then you know I have lots of personal experience with bridge rotation.

 

Saw any necks in two lately?

[DeepEnd]

. . . .

Since the OP recommended ramping the bridge and didn't mention shaving anything other than the saddle, I kinda wonder how this idea got into the discussion in the first place.

[Yamaneck]

[quote=

Since the OP recommended ramping the bridge and didn't mention shaving anything other than the saddle, I kinda wonder how this idea got into the discussion in the first place.

 

Not so--this is what the OP said:

The trick is to ramp the bridge right up to the slot, then continue the ramp on the front side of the slot, so the bridge saddle can happilly be shaved down to the level of the top of the bridge (or even below!).

 

He's talking about removing wood in front of the saddle, as well.

[Grant Harding]

Imagine a slot that starts in the peg hole, then angles up to the bridge saddle, then continues on the other side of the slot toward the peghead. The saddle can be embedded within the bridge and the string still gets a nice clean anchor with no wood in the way. I'll get a pic as soon as I can.

[Freeman Keller]

Hey, Yamaneck. Thanks for asking. So far, I've only built two instruments (new neck sets), and reset two necks, but I have a modest collection of vintage ladder-braced parlors. Are you familiar with ladder-braced parlors? If so, then you know I have lots of personal experience with bridge rotation. Saw any necks in two lately?

 

Actually, you might want to clarify that those were spanish heels, right? For those who don't know, a spanish heel has the neck and neck block as one integral piece, the angle is "set" by the workboard or solera on which the guitar is built. The normal neck joint for a classical, very rare for a steel string. Also very different from "setting" a dovetail, MT or bolt on neck.

 

I was always curious about that old Martin that you fixed up. Did you have to reset the neck on it or was it OK (or did you shave it?)? And do all your parlors have perfect action? I thought I remembered you saying that you bought some of them to learn repair.

[Freeman Keller]

 

Imagine a slot that starts in the peg hole, then angles up to the bridge saddle, then continues on the other side of the slot toward the peghead. The saddle can be embedded within the bridge and the string still gets a nice clean anchor with no wood in the way. I'll get a pic as soon as I can.

 

 

Please do, I do have an old Yamie that I have been putting of sawing off the neck - but its reached the point where something has to be done. I'll consider all options.

[gitnoob]

Actually, you might want to clarify that those were spanish heels, right? For those who don't know, a spanish heel has the neck and neck block as one integral piece, the angle is "set" by the workboard or solera on which the guitar is built. The normal neck joint for a classical, very rare for a steel string. Also very different from "setting" a dovetail, MT or bolt on neck. I was always curious about that old Martin that you fixed up. Did you have to reset the neck on it or was it OK (or did you shave it?)? And do all your parlors have perfect action? I thought I remembered you saying that you bought some of them to learn repair.

 

Right -- the spanish heel is interesting in that the actual "neck angle" is fixed during construction, but you still need to determine fretboard thickness and bridge height. You actually have to think about things like how much torque you want on the top and how much the top will belly under string tension. In other words, bridge height is a design decision -- not something you copy from Martin.

 

I may try koiwoi's technique on a parlor -- I think I have enough to experiment with. I'm currently happy with the 0-17's playability, but that may change one day.

 

I have a steam-generator standing by.

 

One other technique I don't think we've discussed yet is the neck-block slip. A viable option for old parlors, especially if the back is already coming off.