Recording without a click.

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Great musicians have great timing. They don't need a click track.

 

 

Great musicians have great timing. They can play with a click track or without.

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Now, I understand the necessity of a click for songs that have percussion in them, and I also understand that a song recorded without a click will potentially lag. However, for this record, I'm planning on doing mostly songs without percussion and am having a difficult time A) playing with the click, and B) finding the right tempo for the click for me to play with. This is very frustrating for me and I was wondering if anyone had any advice. I was wondering what your experiences have been doing songs without percussion without a click and how it sounded in the end. Any other insight or tips would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

 

 

Like other people posting, I agree that even if you are using percussion, you don't necessarily need percussion.

 

Here at my studio, I very rarely use a click. We might use it for an intro where everyone has to come in on time, but when the drums or percussion kick in, then we just take it out. Just utilitarian purposes like that. But it's extremely rare that I'm ever asked to provide a click.

 

Clicks are not evil. There's a lot of uses for them, including keeping everyone together in intros, as mentioned above, or for practicing for time or for providing a *suggestion* for where to play. And using the word "suggestion" is a word a choose very carefully here, because in the hands of a great musician, a click is often just that: a SUGGESTION. A good musician knows that you can push and pull the rhythm, and that each click is a *suggestion* for a landing point, not an absolute "you must play right on top of this click". Good musicians know that they can land slightly in front, on top, or slightly in back of the click, just as they might do when playing with a really great drummer. And if you ever hear a musician saying that a click automatically equates to metronomic, lifeless music, they're speaking from inexperience. It most likely means that they cannot play to a click.

 

That said, I still don't like them because I like music that may speed up a little in the choruses, or slow down slightly or whatever. I like that. So while I don't automatically think "click = suck", I just don't personally like it in my music, or the music that I record, typically. But I'm not dogmatically opposed to them.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

BACK TO GIVING THE ORIGINAL POSTER A SUGGESTION ABOUT CLICKS:

 

Here's my suggestion. Don't play with a click. Just record and focus on the delivery and emotion.

 

But here's my other suggestion. Practice to a click.

 

ALSO...the following is a suggestion that people who come to my studio and need to use a click love to use: use a drum machine that has a shaker instead of a "click" sound. Use the shaker instead. Why? Because a shaker is more natural sounding. AND it's "softer" in its approach in that it suggests, much more than a "click click click" sound, the fact that you CAN push and pull the rhythm. It just feels much better to play to. And when I do record and must use a click, I frequently will use a shaker instead. With a drummer, I'll turn it up (which doesn't hurt their ears so much) and pan it off to one side so they can easily distinguish it from what they are playing. People who hate clicks will often respond much better to a shaker.

[Kendrix]

 

That said, I still don't like them because I like music that may speed up a little in the choruses, or slow down slightly or whatever. I like that. So while I don't automatically think "click = suck", I just don't personally like it in my music, or the music that I record, typically. But I'm not dogmatically opposed to them. .

 

 

Ive used a temo map to adjust the tempo between verse and chorus a number of times. I started by playing without a click and noticed the natural tendancy to lead/lag in certaain sections. It doesnt take too much effort to mimic these changes in a click track.

 

I often use a click because I often program at least some percussion. However, the most natural and moving tracks I've cut have been without a click.

 

Ive even worked to match a midi track to audio previously tracked without a click.

Its a bit of a pain but it can be done.

[nerol1st]

Personally I swing both ways.

 

Click is awesome, no click is awesome. Different strokes.

 

I find a click 100% necessary in the genre I tend to record in (metal) and that's definitely because the double bass drum machine sound seems to be the in thing ATM. The indie bands I get in almost never use one, as long as your close when it comes to rock it's not a huge deal.

 

When I record I always use one. I like my triplets and 16ths nice a squeaky clean and tight (since I dig layering guitars), and I'm usually in the upper bpm range (160-220 usually).

[UstadKhanAli]

'Course, soon it looks like I'm gonna be recording someone's dance-oriented tracks, and they want a click track to keep 'em on, since this is, like, dance music played by humans. The drummer can play to a click, so it'll be quite natural-sounding still. But I'd agree with them that the click is the way to go in this case.

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Ive used a temo map to adjust the tempo between verse and chorus a number of times. I started by playing without a click and noticed the natural tendancy to lead/lag in certaain sections. It doesnt take too much effort to mimic these changes in a click track.

 

 

Definitely true, and we've done that by using a drum machine and speeding up or slowing down certain sections when we recording to analog (those were these tapes with these magnetic particles attached to them that was pulled past a recording head emitting electrical signals).

[Lee Knight]

For me, it depends. As Nero, Phil and others pointed out, sometimes it's good, sometimes bad. Phil's point about musician's phoning in a performance and awaiting the fix from yours truly? Well, I know that one. Half up front, balance due on delivery.

 

I come from a different era. I learned music on my own and through formal instruction both. I had awesome drummers hug me then say, "Now go practice with a metronome or you're fired." We did not dick around. You suck if you can't keep time. You don't suck for long and get to get up on stage. See ya, don't calls us, and we won't call you.

 

And guess what? A lot of guys now fit my definition of suck. They can't keep time, let alone swing, let alone push, let alone lay back. What is the world come to? So by my definition, sadly, a lot of new guys suck. Sorry. There are pockets of good players but the bar has been lowered. Dramatically.

 

My Jazz Band instructor, I was a high school sophomore bassist, playing in the JC Jazz Band, he said to me, hit a wrong note if you have to, but never, ever, miss a rhythm or groove. Good point. Hip Hop is built upon such logic. Jazz, blues and rock too.

 

So the majority of the time when I'm tracking a band with a great writer, a cool aesthetic, an image, a vision... and they still fit my definition of suck, as in, bad time... I run the click. And I edit.

 

True, real happiness, for me... is to roll. Open a session and roll. No click. Good players gauging each outer, and finding their center, and moving as one. You know that thing we used to call GROOVE.

 

9 times out of 10, I run a click.

[Lee Flier]

Ive used a temo map to adjust the tempo between verse and chorus a number of times. I started by playing without a click and noticed the natural tendancy to lead/lag in certaain sections. It doesnt take too much effort to mimic these changes in a click track.

 

No, but that still requires thinking about it ahead of time. A lot of great moments happen spontaneously, and a click doesn't leave much room for that. It's a little like having to think ahead of time about what you're going to do when you make love and then being forced to stick with that plan.

[Lee Flier]

And guess what? A lot of guys now fit my definition of suck. They can't keep time, let alone swing, let alone push, let alone lay back. What is the world come to? So by my definition, sadly, a lot of new guys suck. Sorry. There are pockets of good players but the bar has been lowered. Dramatically.

 

I dunno, I think a lot of this is a function of how much pro engineering work you do. Cuz the more you do, the more sucky musicians you're going to run into. I'm no longer a full time engineer, I can pick and choose my projects and nearly all of the folks I work with are great musicians. When I was a staff engineer, I ran into a lot of suckage and that was in the 80's. It's quantity over quality.

 

So it's true that as a pro you have to be prepared for anything, and you have to do whatever it takes to get the people paying the bills to sound like they don't suck. To people like the OP who are self recording musicians - they can choose not to suck. Practice to a click. Work on your time before you hit the "record" button or better yet, go ahead and hit the button after you practice and see how much suckage is still going on. Repeat until suckage level is minimal.

 

Time spent improving that part of your performance will pretty much always produce a better end result than slopping through the performance and trying to fix it later with editing. And if you try to depend on the click to keep you in time but aren't used to playing with a click, that's usually even worse. You're just listening to the click and trying to keep up as opposed to playing the song and turning in a heartfelt performance. If somebody has a decent feel but their time sucks, I'd rather just record them without a click anyway so that at least the feel is retained.

[Marko]

Reminds me of what happened to some musicians I

[Lee Knight]

I dunno, I think a lot of this is a function of how much pro engineering work you do. Cuz the more you do, the more sucky musicians you're going to run into. I'm no longer a full time engineer, I can pick and choose my projects and nearly all of the folks I work with are great musicians. When I was a staff engineer, I ran into a lot of suckage and that was in the 80's. It's quantity over quality. So it's true that as a pro you have to be prepared for anything, and you have to do whatever it takes to get the people paying the bills to sound like they don't suck. To people like the OP who are self recording musicians - they can choose not to suck. Practice to a click. Work on your time before you hit the "record" button or better yet, go ahead and hit the button after you practice and see how much suckage is still going on. Repeat until suckage level is minimal. Time spent improving that part of your performance will pretty much always produce a better end result than slopping through the performance and trying to fix it later with editing. And if you try to depend on the click to keep you in time but aren't used to playing with a click, that's usually even worse. You're just listening to the click and trying to keep up as opposed to playing the song and turning in a heartfelt performance. If somebody has a decent feel but their time sucks, I'd rather just record them without a click anyway so that at least the feel is retained.

 

I agree. But I still stand by my comment that the bar has been lowered. I get out, I play with the cats. I watch and listen. The bar has been lowered. Bear in mind, I like new music. I like new ideas, I like working with these guys and I usually don't rag on them but... hey, it ain't what it used to be.

 

At least in San Diego. There were a lot of quality players at one time. There are only a handful today. The numbers have shifted.

 

I like to hire the good ones to supplement when we can afford it.

[C JoGo]

If one is maybe creating a jam and the musicians are above average ...no click o~

 

But in the studio :: its always a click. Mainly because most of our projects are soloist ...with a fair amount of sequenced MIDI production through the project/demo.

[BushmasterM4]

Click tracks are like Chinese water torture to me. I like drums loops if I need one.

[C JoGo]

Click tracks are like Chinese water torture to me. I like drums loops if I need one.

 

 

One reason the Chinese are doing so well these days---you need discipline It's the fear, of our clients, not using a click

 

 

remember the Chinese fingercuffs :poke:

[MrKnobs]

40

 

Terry D.

[MrKnobs]

I rarely use click tracks now unless the person / group I'm recording insists. I have plenty of really good session drummers on my studio "Rolodex" and after recording them both ways I find they really "breathe" better without a kick and sound much less stiff.

 

That being said, I just did a song from the ground up starting with grand piano and click, then adding string quartet. The pianist is so good he managed to make the song sound smooth and flowing despite the click, and when the string quartet arrived they asked me to turn off everything in the cans EXCEPT the click, since they were reading from sheet music.

 

As for modern tools that enable you to create a click after the recording, I have just two things to say: (1) I don't have those tools and (2) why?

 

Actually in regard to (2), I guess one reason might be what our horn section did on the last track. They work fast and get a lot of tunes out in a day, so they do a lot of cut and pasting. They told me they put "Beat Detective" on the tracks I sent them to line everything up perfectly, then played once each on the chorus, verse, bridge, intro, outro, etc. then pasted onto the repeats, then undid the Beat Detective to put the ebb and flow of tempo back how it was.

 

Seems strange to me that this would save them time, but they do a large chunk of all the Nashville horn work so they must know a few things I don't.

 

Terry D.

[Phil O'Keefe]

So it's true that as a pro you have to be prepared for anything, and you have to do whatever it takes to get the people paying the bills to sound like they don't suck.

 

Truer words were never spoken. :phil:

[C JoGo]

120

[Music Calgary]

 

As for modern tools that enable you to create a click after the recording, I have just two things to say: (1) I don't have those tools and (2) why?

 

 

The only thing I can think of is if there's a free-time part followed by a unified cue -- or something like that.

[whitepapagold]

The only thing I can think of is if there's a free-time part followed by a unified cue -- or something like that.

 

Jesus, you are such an imbecile its amazing... No clue whatsoever! But its great you respond and have no idea on a regular basis! I wonder whos trash you take out, cause thats the only way your getting into any real sessions!

 

Make it up as you go!

[Phil O'Keefe]

I'd like to ask both of you to please keep it civil - again, you can disagree about techniques, tools or results, but there's no need to resort to name calling - it's not acceptable on this forum.

 

Thanks.

[whitepapagold]

I do have respect for you Phil but Im not going to last long on these forums and will not hold anything you must do against you!

 

Especially with people like Music Calgary around- I call a horse a horse! But you were so nice in the Avatar thread, Ill let this one go.

 

But seriously, If I need to go, feel free- nothing personal at all!

 

And I won't go out of my way to cause you issue, but by nature Im sure I will!

[C JoGo]

The DAW & general recording system we have incorporated for years ... does not allow much of the newer, ( sophisticated :-| ) editing > as some have stated to in their systems. We are barely "digital" in some respects . But , we use a click for generally everything except ::: sessions of real jams and/or clients whom will require very little post tracks. Most of our work is solo or duo artists, as stated, which we use MIDI sequencers (Kurzweils) for drums/strings/etc. >> so the click is very beneficial for a time-cost factor.

[MrJoshua]

When recording myself, I generally play a scratch guitar part to a click, then record drums with the click in one ear and the scratch guitar part in the other just as a guide.

 

Then I kill the click and the scratch guitar part, and cut bass just over the drums, followed by rhythm guitar. Everything else is then layered over that rhythmic foundation.

 

The click is supposed to be a general tempo guide, not something that forces you to be a robot. You can push and pull a tempo over a click, if you have a decent rhythm section. Playing on and off the beat, pushing, pulling ... these are supposed to be tools you can pull out of your bag without changing the actual tempo of the song, especially if you're a drummer or bass player.

 

Now, if the song calls for actual tempo changes (and sometimes they do) then you can either play without a click (and hopefully the musicians are capable of handling this without getting too loose), or you can put together a tempo map and include the changes. Just whatever you have to do to get the best sound on the recording.

 

But that's just the way I do things when making my own stuff. When cutting band tracks, we might do things that way or we might set up the drums, bass, and rhythm guitarist and track all three of them together with no click. Just depends on the song.

[FireWithin]

 

I've had a different experience than some here. Having recorded with and without clicks, I have always been glad later about the click track. And not only when tracks must be added... My songs just "held up" better when I had the discipline to use a click. My "emotional impulses" do not always make for the best song.

 

 

 

DITTO! Can't imagine doing it without....though I never do the style you described. I guess if it was totally solo it could work better as mentioned. But, bring others in and it will be a mess.