Members smithguitars Posted June 6, 2011 Members Share Posted June 6, 2011 Help me give good advice. I have been telling my 19 yr old nephew that the best was to get the experience is to learn on his own with a project studio and Pro Tools and try to get his foot in the door at a reputable studio--coffee boy or something (he is a trained barista from Seattle). He is convinced that the creative environment and job placement at the Art Institute is going to have him set after 2 years and $40k spent. Seems to me, you could get going pretty well on starting a studio of your own for $40k. Who is (more) delusional me or my nephew. Brutal honesty is requested here. I don't want him to start out in life in debt with no better prospects than he has now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted June 6, 2011 Members Share Posted June 6, 2011 He would be better off taking business courses at a college and building the studio business up on the side a littel at a time. Running a business like a studio takes major business savvy in this hard economy. If he wants to do some intern work at a studio part time, he would learn just as much as taking classes, and it wont cost him a dime. just his time doing volenteer work. I wouldnt even attemp breaking into the business at this time. The big record companies are pretty much on skid row because of internet theft of songs and being dependant on the entertainment industry for a pay check is not a good career move either. He wont find jobs in the business unless he's a luckey as hell, and if he does its going to be for chump change. My advice is have him get an electronics degree or business degree or both. If the recording thing doesnt work out, he can use those degrees to get himselfinto hundreds of related industries including manufacturing and sales and or running a business. I realize it may be something that he really wants to do, but my prediction is you're going to have an adult living with you for many years as he works a crappy job to pay off that loan. If the economy takes an upturn than maybe, maybe it might be possible. I just dont see it happening for the next 5~10 years. Theres an explosion going on with home studios and nooone needs to pay to go to a major studio for alot of stuff like they used to. maybe he could get into computer science and write recording/DAW programs and plugins. Theres a big boom going on in that area right now and money to be made. Then he can find a business on the side like many of us do. Sorry my advice isnt more positive, but having a degree from one of those trade schools is not a secure way of planning a career. In a down economy the first thing people do is cut back on buying music. No music being sold, means no jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IsildursBane Posted June 6, 2011 Members Share Posted June 6, 2011 Help me give good advice. I have been telling my 19 yr old nephew that the best was to get the experience is to learn on his own with a project studio and Pro Tools and try to get his foot in the door at a reputable studio--coffee boy or something (he is a trained barista from Seattle). He is convinced that the creative environment and job placement at the Art Institute is going to have him set after 2 years and $40k spent. Seems to me, you could get going pretty well on starting a studio of your own for $40k.Who is (more) delusional me or my nephew. You both are. He can't get any sort of financial aid for building his own studio, but he can get it for going to school. The comparison, while made often, is absurd. Even if he could get it, he'd have zero skills with which to attract bands and would have $40K worth of gear sitting unused. The creative environment at a school and the connections you get from it are definitely worthwhile things to have, but are they worth $40K worth of debt? I doubt it. IMO, the biggest determiner of his potential success is your nephew's ability to network with and relate to bands. Is he already playing in bands and hanging with musicians or is he completely outside of that world, playing solo in his bedroom and wants to mix stuff. If he's already hanging with bands, he may have a shot of doing something. If he's a loner and likes to do his own thing, but wants to mix, he's screwed unless he wants to get into live sound. -Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members michael_B Posted June 6, 2011 Members Share Posted June 6, 2011 Having made the mistake racking up student loans at an Art Institute in graphic design, I would say to take a different route. For profit schools are not the way to go and my experience was that the curriculum was not anywhere near what it should have been for the $$. Go where the music is being made, volunteer, network, and if you're going to get a degree and take out student loans, be damn sure you can land a job that can pay them back, because they only go away when you die. The best route is to get an education you can pay for out of pocket, stay away from the loans, especially in this crazy economy, and the dwindling music business.If you want to learn how to record/engineer, just jump in and do it. The gear is only part of the equation, you need the connections to get people to come. my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Flogger59 Posted June 6, 2011 Members Share Posted June 6, 2011 http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2785835-Institute-Of-Delusional-Audio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TBush Posted June 7, 2011 Members Share Posted June 7, 2011 Dittos to all of y'all. Just jump in and get yer feet wet. (And be nice, know how to work well with others, be encouraging, be honest, mix great-sounding music, know the gear, etc...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2785835-Institute-Of-Delusional-Audio Thank you - I was just about to come in here and post that. I have added some comments to that thread for the OP and his nephew. I'm not totally anti-recording school, but many of them try to get you (parents and students) to buy into a fairly unrealistic dream. Two years after graduation, the vast majority of "recording school graduates" will be working in a non-music, non-audio related field. True, you can learn things (IF you apply yourself and go the extra mile), but those who do well in an audio career are almost as rare as musicians who do well and make a good living from music. It's a very tough field, and if that's what you're meant to do, then I can't stop you - but most people going into recording schools, or even taking university courses, don't have very realistic expectations or a clue about what it's really like as a recording engineer, or their chances of succeeding at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 A freind of mine did exactly this. Dad payed tuition and off he went. He was totally into it, sound design, production, composition, etc...a gifted player with an ear and alotta drive. I haven't heard from him since, but I'm sure I wouldn't neeed to. For this type of individual, young, driven, and gifted, the investment in education is worth it, it gets them to the next level of possibility and oppurtunity. Under any or no obligation. For anyone with less than these attributes well, lets just say as long as the tuition is a gift from the grandparents, it's time well spent. If the kid is borrowing from the gov't., institutions or family for the cost, it maybe a bad risk if he hasn't done some footwork into studios that would hire him and under what conditions, and or sought/gained guaranteed employment after graduation. Very well said, and I agree: the exceptional kids are going to get a lot out of any music and audio related environment like that where they can network, collaborate, learn and create... that's what I mean by "going the extra mile" and "working your butt off". You have to LIVE for this stuff, or you're toast. And far too often, the kids in these classes are just there because mom and dad said they had to go to school or get a job, and this seemed like it would be a "cool thing" to study, and that it would land them a job hanging out with rawkstars and groopies once they finished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members smithguitars Posted June 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 7, 2011 OP here. Fist off thanks to everyone. Your responses are very much appreciated. Here's where I am coming from: I am a public radio program director, I am on the air daily (weekends off for good behavior). I have been in radio for about 15yrs, and I do production for broadcast, my pieces air daily, some have appeared on NPR, blah blah blah. Write, record, mix, master, distribution, the whole 9. I am self taught, started with SAW Studio back in the day, FF> today I pro facility at work and also a home based studio--running Pro Tools and Adobe Audition (the radio industry standard)--where I do production for radio and also music projects with college/university musicians. I do 1 to 2 CD projects per year. When I work with young musicians, I teach them to record. arrange and produce for themselves. I teach them to do it cheap, do it well, own everything, and don't go into debt for your dreams. Think Robert Rodriguez for Audio Engineering. I am in an academic environment and network with lots of musicians and get most of my non-radio production work by word of mouth--but it is not my main job, it's the bread and butter that lets me continue to build the studio, buy equipment etc. My university does not offer an audio engineering course track (yet ). My nephew is living with us (how'd you guess?) and finishing up high school after taking about 18 months off. He is really bright, musical, and enthusiastic--though not yet skilled. His parents are not in the position to financially help, same goes for us and his grandparents. This is going to be on him. He is considering the Art Institute in Seattle and borrowing the money to go to school--$40k for two years--meet people, network, make it big. From my observation, I don't see it ending well. He wants to borrow more money than he needs so he doesn't have to work. Work takes too much time away from friends, er--sorry, networking. I've encouraged him to check out Business or Marketing, electrical/electronic engineering or something that can feed him and to help make the Music thing happen, but he has one thing in his head and is not considering other options. I'm glad to have a steady radio gig so I can scratch the creative itch professionally, and invest in young people along the way. I just cannot, in good conscience, advise him to go into music or production as a career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members michael_B Posted June 7, 2011 Members Share Posted June 7, 2011 Sounds like you already know the answer to his predicament. I think the Art Institutes "can" be ok, with the right attitude, HOWEVER, if he is borrowing every last penny, and then some to live on, well, he's going to have a rude awakening in a few years when his loan payments are due. I would not advise it, also being someone that has recorded and produced a few projects myself, it's still a home recording world out there, and both local studios just went belly up. If he has passion for it, there are other ways to make it work. I also know how it is being told that something you want to do is a "bad idea". You just ignore what they say and make your own mistakes, then a few years down the road turn around and say, "gosh, I sure wish I would have listened to you guys!", etc.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted June 7, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 7, 2011 Gosh, I sure wish I had listened to you guys! Great idea for a tattoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Johnny-Boy Posted June 7, 2011 Members Share Posted June 7, 2011 Man, I'm just thinking about the upgrades I could do to my studio for 40K. Man, oh, man! And to think I just scraped enough cash together to purchase the Hollywood Strings. 40K would go along way for real string players. Man, oh man! John:cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted June 7, 2011 Members Share Posted June 7, 2011 Heres an article by someone who went through the training. Its pretty much dead on for 2004. In 2011 in a bad economy, I'd have to say the negative aspects are even worse. http://tapeop.com/articles/bonus/what-i-learned-recording-school/ The most important thing he lists is at the end about the course as being college accredited. Thats a big plus when you can take those credits to a college. Since you work in radio, you have a good idea what recordings all about. If you did invest in the equipment, you could get a good deal of that money back if its a bust. Buy low, and used and you can build up a good setup. Pro recording is like radio. Its a corperate money structure all based around profit and growth. If this kid doesnt want to work, I say forget it. Being successful is 100% about hard work and the glory is only something you look back on when you're an old man. Print the tape op article and make him read it. Then make him realise he would have to learn how to be submissive. He can start by cleaning your boots or the john in front of his friends. If he balks, then he hasnt learned the importance of humility. Being a whipping boy is an extreme of course. It should develop into a philosophy of the client comes first and making the clients feel like kings. Its the same as any service related industry. They pay for the experteese and also the paid slave labor. It makes them realize they are getting something for their money by seeing others hump over their work. Thats what they're paying for. Its boosts their ego and makes them feel like somebody. A studio can hire a great looking chick to do grunt work and and keep clients happy. Many could be great engineers as well, but in general you work for the man. He has to have that ability to kiss ass like you do in any job to earn a buck. If he cant hack it, then he better take some business courses and become an employer because he wont do well working for others. You dont want to break his dreams but handing him a profession would only make him a spoiled brat noone in the industry wants to work with. Once he gets some milage on him, then he can begin to earn respect in the industry. Thisd is hard love but its the only thing I can suggest to toughen him up enough to hack the business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Inazone Posted June 7, 2011 Members Share Posted June 7, 2011 As gets mentioned in various forum posts, articles and elsewhere, an IT degree is probably the most beneficial education a would-be studio engineer can pursue. Even a two-year tech/community college degree (which I have) will provide pretty decent job prospects, and the knowledge gained there can be applied in 99% of the studio situations a rookie is likely to encounter. Over the years, I've found that a surprising number of studio engineers can record, mix and master an album seemingly on autopilot, but problems with computer hardware or operating systems immediately put them in panic mode. So, someone with a good knowledge of operating systems, hardware platforms and troubleshooting AND some informal self/peer education regarding recording technology would probably be better off than with that $40K sound engineer piece of paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members veracohr Posted June 7, 2011 Members Share Posted June 7, 2011 Help me give good advice. I have been telling my 19 yr old nephew that the best was to get the experience is to learn on his own with a project studio and Pro Tools and try to get his foot in the door at a reputable studio--coffee boy or something (he is a trained barista from Seattle). He is convinced that the creative environment and job placement at the Art Institute is going to have him set after 2 years and $40k spent. Seems to me, you could get going pretty well on starting a studio of your own for $40k.Who is (more) delusional me or my nephew. Brutal honesty is requested here. I don't want him to start out in life in debt with no better prospects than he has now. Having done exactly that myself - attending the Art Institute of Seattle for Audio Production - I say with authority that the learnin' is decent but ultimately it's a waste of time and money. The "job placement" spiel is a joke, at least for the audio industry. I think the best they did for me was interviews for crap internships at Mackie and Muzak. Of course this was a while ago, maybe they're better now. But it seems to me that today is an even worse time to hope to get a job in the audio industry than when I went there. I haven't kept in touch with many of the people I went to school with, but I know of only one who is actually working in the field they went to AIS for, and that's a graphic arts field. One audio guy I knew was working as a guitar tech a few years back. Tell your nephew to find a better route of learning audio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Big Pimpin' T Posted June 10, 2011 Members Share Posted June 10, 2011 I put myself 25k in debt for schooling, and although I earn a good salary working as an audio engineer (both live and in the studio), the debt payments are keeping me from having any fun with my money. I can't say which is best, but I'm not sure that having the piece of paper is worth the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members elsongs Posted June 10, 2011 Members Share Posted June 10, 2011 That's way too much. I mean, Rebecca Black only paid $2,000... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted June 10, 2011 Members Share Posted June 10, 2011 Over the years, I've found that a surprising number of studio engineers can record, mix and master an album seemingly on autopilot, but problems with computer hardware or operating systems immediately put them in panic mode. You just described me. So, someone with a good knowledge of operating systems, hardware platforms and troubleshooting AND some informal self/peer education regarding recording technology would probably be better off than with that $40K sound engineer piece of paper. In my case, it would be extremely beneficial. Now, I manage to troubleshoot my own stuff and usually do reasonably well, but it'd be fantastic to know more so I could troubleshoot it faster AND not panic when audio interface issues/firewire problems or OS and computer problems occur. Now, that said, this isn't my full-time occupation, so that may enter in to it. I get a fantastic sound in my studio, but some computer/IT knowledge would be greatly beneficial when the inevitable occurs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Nick Posted June 11, 2011 Members Share Posted June 11, 2011 A 2 year degree in "audio engineering" from a trade school is not going to get him anywhere. Yeah, he might get Pro Tools certified or some BS certificate, but honestly, your degree and your certifications don't really mean {censored} in the real world. Tell him to go to a real university and get an EE or CS degree and moonlight as an intern at a studio. Or, get a BFA in music (what I'm doing). You both have to know that you're not going to get a job in this business unless you're truly hungry for it. You have to live it, it has to be all you think about when you're learning the ropes. Without that drive, that time-honed instinct, he'll just end up 40k in debt, recording decent bands with a mackie mixer in a bedroom..."Well, they taught me how to route an SSL and use Pro Tools in audio school." What he'll likely miss out on includes things like interdisciplinary collaboration, ear training (musical and technical), music theory, networking with peers who will likely end up in the music industry (IE - musicians) Sounds cynical, but it's (for the most part) true of kids who blow a lot of money on trade schools. Honestly, it's true of many kids who go to universities too - the same ratio of people in every class that comes through. Some want it so badly that they'll do whatever it takes to be successful, others just float through and assume that a degree will get them where they need to be. They neglect that the degree carries little to no weight. If you can't mix or run a session, no one cares that you have a degree, you just don't get work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jerry Rio Posted June 15, 2011 Members Share Posted June 15, 2011 Help me give good advice. I have been telling my 19 yr old nephew that the best was to get the experience is to learn on his own with a project studio and Pro Tools and try to get his foot in the door at a reputable studio--coffee boy or something (he is a trained barista from Seattle). He is convinced that the creative environment and job placement at the Art Institute is going to have him set after 2 years and $40k spent. Seems to me, you could get going pretty well on starting a studio of your own for $40k.Who is (more) delusional me or my nephew. Brutal honesty is requested here. I don't want him to start out in life in debt with no better prospects than he has now. Hilarious parody of those audio engineering schools that guarantee you a job...nowhere!.....Because as everyone finds out sooner or later ....if you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TBush Posted June 16, 2011 Members Share Posted June 16, 2011 Man, I'm just thinking about the upgrades I could do to my studio for 40K. Man, oh, man! :thu: No doubt- where to begin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members smithguitars Posted June 27, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 27, 2011 I think he is seeing the light. At least about trade schools. Now he wants to go to Japan or Korea and teach English and see the world and introduce DUBSTEP to the Asian masses. Good luck with that. Oh yeah, and he got picked up the other night and charged with underage drinking, possession and b&e. Idiot. He may be moving into the Big House. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted June 27, 2011 Members Share Posted June 27, 2011 Because he got caught doing those things it's proof positive he hasnt got the intelegce to run his own life yet no less make decisions for himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BryanMichael Posted June 27, 2011 Members Share Posted June 27, 2011 I would: 1. Take a course at the recording workshop, it's about 6K including housing: http://www.recordingworkshop.com/?gclid=CMji6-ze1qkCFQ7MKgodyH_3NA 2. Get a degree in Business. (If not a Bachelors, an Associates)3. Spend some money on a good basic setup and start recording!4. Work part time for free at a studio to see what you can learn At this point he will have spent less than half the money he was going to spend. That said, if he is dedicated and hard working and all of that, those specialty colleges are just as good as anything else, I racked up nearly $30K for a bachelors in Communication from Ohio State and while I have a job in my field, I'm going to be paying off that loan until I'm retirement age....and I do NOT make good money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members veracohr Posted June 28, 2011 Members Share Posted June 28, 2011 and introduce DUBSTEP to the Asian masses. He he. I'm pretty sure the Asian masses already know dubstep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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