Are guitars inherently more expressive than Keyboards?

[pbognar]

Guitars have the capability of being more expressive but guitarists have been fighting it for years. Saturation, compression, delays, chorus... anything to get away from having to learn how to actually control all that variability. So sure... inherently they are. Tune into a classic jazz station for a week and start hearing how guys like Oscar Perterson, or Brubeck, or Tyner or Corea or Morton or Shearing overcome the "limitations" of thier instrument. So are guitars really more expressive. I think in the end... no.

 

 

I second that.

 

I think the string bending thing is getting the most focus from the guitar perspective. But what about a guitarist who bends poorly - eg. overshoots and bends to sharp? And the lack of dynamics? And the inability to play tightly clustered chords (unless you're using the Frank Gambale tuning)?

 

Even as a guitarist myself, I've been more blown away by keyboard and sax players than guitarists in general - except oddly enough by certain blues based guitarists. I'm not a huge blues fan - but SRV? Wow - take about touching a nerve. I think it's the whole vocal emulation thing.

 

Corea, Herbie, Shorter - they tend to cause the hairs on my arm to stand up.

 

Gregg Rolie with early Santana - another master of the B3.

 

Also, I have to mention East Indian musicians, and their 31 note scales. L. Shankar for instance. Also, check out the "Concert for George" DVD - "The Inner Light" with Anoushka Shankar on sitar.

 

A vocal quality in a player's approach is always impressive, as is a mastery of any instrument and an understanding and mastery of harmonic knowledge which manages to touch the listener's soul.

 

Heck, it's been said many times that Stevie Wonder's harmonica is more expressive than any of his keyboards...

 

I guess it's a cliche, but expressiveness exists when the musician is touching the listener's soul. And it's not just about bending strings.

[Magpel]

Depend on what you're expressing...lol.

There's a narrow definition of expression that defines it as the ability to slur notes or, as someone else pointed, achieve fine difference in timbre and attack.

But piano also has great touch response, and its capacity for expression through counterpoint and harmonic color exceeds the guitars's.

Somehow, we've equated expression with sustain and slurs. It's wrong. ; )

[Hard Truth]

Yes the guitar is inherently more expressive, but a good keyboardist can overcome the limitations of the instrument to play as expressively as a many guitarists. Also the piano is more expressive than the harsichord, and a B3 organ or good synth in the hands of a skilled player is more expresive than a piano.

The proof is that there are several "one-note" guitar players: players who you can identify on the first note. Examples include Santana, Garcia, Scofield, BB King, and Hendrix.

[kurdy]

I always get a grin when I see keyboard players slamming down one of the keys and then jiggling their finger as though they're applying a vibrato to the sustained note. That ain't fooling anyone.

I think that's called "aftertouch".

Really, both instruments can be equally expressive, if played by very good musicians.

Now my opinion may be biased, due to the fact that I'm not a guitarist, but to me, it seems that piano is an easier instrument for a beginner. Most younger children start out on this instrument. As already mentioned, the note is gonna sound the same no matter who strikes the key. Guitar requires more finger technique.

But because piano is a bit of an easier instrument to learn, it allows for greater flexibility with different kinds of chords, voicings, inversions, polyphony. As a compositional tool, I think it's way better than guitar. Most songs written on guitar tend to have simpler chords and progressions, and there's nothing wrong with that, but it's a bit harder to stretch out, if you aren't really good. Unless you're writing a three-chord rock 'n roll song, in which case a guitar's limitations can actually be a help. I think part of the appeal of guitar is its ability to make less sound like more. Maybe in that sense, it's more expressive.

But in terms of flexibility, I think the piano/keyboard wins, hands down. And when you add synth and sampling technology, it beats guitar by a landslide. Not that it's a contest.

That said, as a piano player, I envy the portability of a guitar, and that it's much easier to look cool, and jump around the stage with one. Also, when you walk into the guitar department at a music store, there are so many choices. Different shapes, sizes, colors--it must be really exciting for someone looking to buy a guitar. I find it exciting, and I'm not even a guitarist. With keyboards--you've seen one, you've seen 'em all, basically.

[philbo]

Got the idea for this topic from an editorial by Paul White in Sound on Sound magazine. I won't prejudice your thinking by quoting what he said...but does the ability to massage strings on a guitar beat being able hit keys on a keyboard? Or maybe a sax is even more expressive than both... Any opnions?

 

 

Guitar more expressive than key board --- YES!

Sax more expressive than both --- YES^2!

[offramp]

 

A big greasy Hammond with a leslie attached in the hands of a master can floor me every time.

 

 

 

Well, duh...if I had that combo hurled at me, it would floor me, too. Might even kill me.

[Tralfaz]

I think that's called "aftertouch".

Wow... old thread.

But seriously, I've seen players do that since the 60's, on Hammond B-3's and pianos and such.

[rasputin1963]

You got all kinda hot and bothered while writing this thread, didn't you?

 

Ha-ha, UKA... You must admit, no-one ever went broke assuming that Sex Sells... Bowie, Zep, Alice Cooper, Stones, Springsteen, RHCP have all gotten plenty of mileage out of the stage shtick of having one group member kneel at the feet (ahem) of the lead guitarist during one of his musical spasms...

[Ernest Buckley]

No doubt. Guitar is more expressive. The human voice though, is the most expressive IMHO.

[UstadKhanAli]

Ha-ha, UKA... You must admit, no-one ever went broke assuming that Sex Sells... Bowie, Zep, Alice Cooper, Stones, Springsteen, RHCP have all gotten plenty of mileage out of the stage shtick of having one group member kneel at the feet (ahem) of the lead guitarist during one of his musical spasms...

 

 

You're right, so true!!!

 

Prince, Pussycat Dolls, Beyonce....

[tucktronix]

Depends on the player and the soul that is put into that instrument. To sit there and say that one is more expressive than the other is missing the point entirely. I'm a big fan of guys like Jimmy Smith, Oscar Peterson, Jordan Rudess and Stevie Wonder. On the other hand, there are many guitarists whose soloing leaves me breathless. I know of this one blues guitarist from Buffalo whom I the pleasure of playing with. Each lick he plays alters my state of consciousness. Jimi Hendrix is a major influence of mine, and I'm a keyboard player.

 

With a synthesizer, the expressivity in tones can equal or surpass the guitar in many aspects, and Jan Hammer has proven that convincingly. Again, it's all about the musician playing the instrument.

[halljams]

Got the idea for this topic from an editorial by Paul White in Sound on Sound magazine. I won't prejudice your thinking by quoting what he said...but does the ability to massage strings on a guitar beat being able hit keys on a keyboard? Or maybe a sax is even more expressive than both... Any opinions?

 

By miles.

By Miles too. He always had great guitar players and seemed to abandon the keyboardists later on.

But wait, Bill Evans(not the sax player). My god, he was expressive. I would rather listen to him than any guitar player ever any day.

 

Yeah who knows. I hate it when synth players bend though, Yuck what an aweful sound.

[Billster]

You're right, so true!!! ...Beyonce....

Wait a minute! I play guitar. I can have Beyonce kneeling in front of me?

[Gomer Pyle]

I play guitar much better than keys and I'm first a drummer since 64 and sing lead and play bass in my band but when I get loose behind my A 100 and 147 I scare myself and wonder why I bother doing anything else, Paul.

[Hard Truth]

A couple of keyboard players posting here seemed to think that the only expressive advantage of the guitar is the ability to bend notes. But a skilled guitarist can control the attack, decay, sustain and release, and the vibrato and tremelo of every single note individually. A pianist can not get close to that kind of control over every note, synths get close, but can't do all that in real time.

However, a good point was made that the range and polyphonic capability of keyboards provides players with other means for expression. But for me the proof of the guitars superior expressiveness is that some guitar players can be identified after playing just one note, I don't believe that is true with keyboards.

[Beck]

Are guitars inherently more expressive than Keyboards?

 

 

Old threads never die.

 

My background: Accomplished pianist/keyboardist, guitarist, vocalist, recordist

[nice keetee]

Got the idea for this topic from an editorial by Paul White in Sound on Sound magazine. I won't prejudice your thinking by quoting what he said...but does the ability to massage strings on a guitar beat being able hit keys on a keyboard? Or maybe a sax is even more expressive than both... Any opnions?

 

 

Easier to express pitch/vibrato on strings, easier to express soundscapes on keyboard all the notes are in front on an 88 note piano style keyboard, traditional and trigger the rest.

[alfonso]

Yeah who knows. I hate it when synth players bend though, Yuck what an aweful sound.

You're absolutely right for most of them, with few exceptions, the first that comes to mind is obviously Jan Hammer. But it's true that I've heard a lot of great keyboard players fall down miserably on pitch bends....maybe because I'm a guitar player, mainly.

But for those skeptical about expressiveness on a piano, check some Gould or Michelangeli and then come back to talk about sound control on it again...

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

Until a minute ago I thought keyboards and guitars are made to express my musical thoughts and ideas.

[tucktronix]

 

A couple of keyboard players posting here seemed to think that the only expressive advantage of the guitar is the ability to bend notes. But a skilled guitarist can control the attack, decay, sustain and release, and the vibrato and tremelo of every single note individually. A pianist can not get close to that kind of control over every note, synths get close, but can't do all that in real time.

 

 

...and in that same token, I'm sick of these guitar players who continually associate expressivity with merely slurs, tremolo and vibrato. No instrument is any more expressive than the other. Expressivity is interpreted differently in each instrument. I'd much rather listen to a burning piano solo from Henry Butler than any loud note-bending SRV wankery.

 

For the record, synths have their own form of expression and, with channel and poly aftertouch, release velocity, joysticks and ribbon controllers, there is a high degree of control over the attributes you've mentioned.

[UstadKhanAli]

I know of this one blues guitarist from Buffalo whom I the pleasure of playing with. Each lick he plays alters my state of consciousness.

 

 

So who is this, and does he have any recorded stuff that we can hear?

 

~~~

 

I play both guitar and keyboards, btw, and I've been thinking about which is more expressive since this thread started. And I quite frankly still have no idea. And I just don't know that it's all that important for me to determine this. I do know that I can evoke great textures on either instrument, and that they respond very differently. Keyboards - I mean, what are we talking about? A piano? A B-3? A Rhodes? A synthesizer? What kind of synthesizer? All of those are very expressive in the hands of a great keyboardist. I don't know. Ultimately, if I can evoke textures and create an emotional performance from a guitar or a keyboard, then that's all that matters.

[UstadKhanAli]

I should also mention that a piano can be played many different ways, not just by hitting the keys. It can be treated, played with strings or bows, scraped, plucked, struck, have different objects placed on it, etc. It can create otherworldly sounds, different sorts of eerie violin type sounds, banging sounds, hard scrapes, and many other things. And played in a traditional manner, many different sounds can still be coaxed out of it by a skilled player.

 

A guitar can create sounds by banging on it. It can be used with effects, an e-bow, various different implements, vibrating objects, etc., and someone can control quite a lot of sounds on it, even if it's an acoustic guitar. It's also a truly remarkable instrument, capable of quite a variety of sounds, not just bending notes, which is what people seem to get hung up on.

[tucktronix]

So who is this, and does he have any recorded stuff that we can hear?

 

 

Jony James

 

http://www.myspace.com/jonyjamesband

 

http://www.jonyjamesband.com/

[Duddits]

 

No. How expressive either instrument is will depend on the talent of the person playing it.

 

I agree.

 

Does anyone really not agree?

 

There are a million differences between guitar and keyboard for sure, but which is more "expressive" is all about the player.

 

Actually, without players, pianos basically express "Hi. I'm a piece of furniture" while guitars express "Hi. Someone in this house is mellow, hip, or rebellious" which really does, actually, express more than the piano.

 

But I take it Craig meant what the instrument expresses when played, not when hanging around your living room all by itself.

[franknputer]

Guys, I think this question is really unanswerable. Both instruments have different things they can do - for example, a piano has a greater range available, yet guitars have more microtonal ability. To try to quantify which is "more" is silly.

 

What's more, "keyboards" is really too broad a term to be useful. "Guitar" has many variations, yet less than they number of keyboard-driven instruments out there. If you're going to consider synths, pianos, organs, harpsichords, clavinets, etc - all of the "keyboards" - then you really should broaden the definition of "guitar" to include all stringed instruments with a fingerboard...which leaves out sitars, hmm...

 

So, if you expand the definition to include instruments strings suspended between 2 points...well, that would include most keyboards too, except for electronic ones.

 

Which one is more expressive? Well, that depends on the player. Guitars work better for me. But, to really find expression on the guitar, you have to study sax players...vocalists...and even keyboardists.