Are guitars inherently more expressive than Keyboards?

[UstadKhanAli]

Jony James http://www.myspace.com/jonyjamesband http://www.jonyjamesband.com/

...and he can sing well, too. Damn him anyway.

[tim_7string]

I play both instruments like some of you do (guitar and keyboards).

However, I actually started out on piano. It was my wish to be a keyboardist/synthesizer player for an '80s band. Back when I took piano lessons, synth pop was all over the radio and on music video channels.

Over the years of piano lessons I took, I was able to learn how to give weight to a composition, with light touch in certain parts, heavier touch in others and the use of the "forte" (sustain) pedal on the right would add a touch of airyness. It's similar to a guitarist letting an open string ringing out and decaying (drone) while playing other notes on other strings.

Keyboards were a different animal, since some of them did not have aftertouch or velocity sensitivity. Using the pitch and modulation wheels became important to get some sort of expression. One of the reasons I bought my Ensoniq ESQ-1 back in 1990 was because it had velocity sensitivity. I knew I would be unhappy if I could not use loud and soft touch when I played certain sounds on a synthesizer, so I gravitated towards that one. It still plays and sounds great. I love the keys. Like the neck of a guitar, it's very important to me how the playing area feels under my fingers.

When I switched to guitar a few years later, I had to learn a whole new set of tools to get an expressive sound out of it. As before, I started out on an acoustic version (flat top guitar) and graduated to an electric guitar and amp. I played through that for many years with my only effects being my pick, my fingers, a second channel for distortion and built-in reverb. After several years of that, I started to add pedals like a wah, an eq, chorus and delay. All of those elements helped me to express the sounds I was hearing and feeling.

If it's a quick and dirty comparison between a basic synthesizer and an electric guitar, I would choose the guitar because the strings are directly manipulated by the fingers, much like a violin, viola, cello or double bass is. A synthesizer is a plastic and metal machine that is more like an effect pedal. Still, in the right hands, it can sound like magic.

For the record, I think I would answer the question thusly: with the proper amount of skill applied, any instrument can be expressive if the musician playing it happens to have a natural ability for expression itself.

[Tedster]

Got the idea for this topic from an editorial by Paul White in Sound on Sound magazine. I won't prejudice your thinking by quoting what he said...but does the ability to massage strings on a guitar beat being able hit keys on a keyboard? Or maybe a sax is even more expressive than both... Any opnions?

 

 

2002?

[halljams]

You're absolutely right for most of them, with few exceptions, the first that comes to mind is obviously Jan Hammer.

Yes there is no denying Jan, amazing.

[Cry Logic]

I'd say neither. I've heard Jimi and I've heard Earland. What was the question? This concludes your blast from the past! Time travel is just a relative shift.

AHA!
So it was you who revived this thread!

How on earth did you find it?

Do you spend your spare time sifting through old posts on HC?

I vote for guitar.
Inherently a guitar...even an acoustic guitar... is more expressive than
an acoustic keyboard such as a piano or harpschord and even a basic
electronic keyboard such as an organ.

The story changes when you include Synths with pitch and mod wheels
and whatever other controllers you may be able to rig.

But the basic guitar, by it's very nature is able to be played more expressively
than a basic keyboard because of the direct contact of the fingers to the
strings.

Even on an acoustic guitar you can bend a note... which just isn't possible
on a piano, harpsichord etc etc....

Of course, being a guitarist 1st and a keyboard player a distant second,
I may be somewhat biased in my opinion on this subject....

[UstadKhanAli]

I'll chime in again, as I continue ruminating about it.

 

My gut reaction at first was to say "guitar" because, after all, a guitarist is playing it directly with his fingers.

 

But then, when you consider what a keyboardist can do with a keyboard - what kind of keyboard? - then it becomes more difficult.

 

A B3, after all, is capable of a LOT of sounds, especially with those pedals and drawbars and such. I mean, that's a LOT of nuance.

 

And then, if you add a keyboard that has aftertouch sensitivity or warbling or modulations or filter sweeps or portamento or pitchbending or morphing from one sound to another or effects or patching or different sounds or whatever, it becomes quite difficult to truly determine whether a guitar is more expressive than a keyboard.

[DevilRaysFan]

 

Got the idea for this topic from an editorial by Paul White in Sound on Sound magazine. I won't prejudice your thinking by quoting what he said...but does the ability to massage strings on a guitar beat being able hit keys on a keyboard? Or maybe a sax is even more expressive than both... Any opnions?

 

 

 

No - You have it backwards: people are expressive - guitars and keyboards are inanimate objects -- Yes, thats profound -- but man knows how to adapt himself artistically - with touch, taste, soul, and finesse - regardless of the instrument of choice

[UstadKhanAli]

No - You have it backwards: people are expressive - guitars and keyboards are inanimate objects -- Yes, thats profound -- but man knows how to adapt himself artistically - with touch, taste, soul, and finesse - regardless of the instrument of choice

Fine then. Which inanimate object, guitar or keyboard, is more expressive when just laying there?

[Cry Logic]

Fine then. Which inanimate object, guitar or keyboard, is more expressive when just laying there?

Guitar.

[Billster]

Yes there is no denying Jan, amazing.

Actually, IMO, you can deny Jan.

Jan gets a lot of attention, but to me he's a one-trick pony. Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock, and absolutely Joe Zawinul out distance Jan as composers and multi-faceted performers.

And those other three I named are more expressive (just to stay on topic)

[DevilRaysFan]

Fine then. Which inanimate object, guitar or keyboard, is more expressive when just laying there?

 

Neither - which is my point....Have you ever seen a skilled laborerer of a particular facet perform? Like when an assembly line worker's hands run a ballet of functions that can "magically" solder together a component perfectly and beautifully in a few seconds that would take the average slob like me an hour to complete with globs of {censored} all over the place...or the way the string-winders at a guitar factory can slap strings on an instrument in unbelievable record time, with picture-perfect windings, and perfect pitch that takes the average layman ten times as long to do ( I actually witnessed this in Meridian, Mississipi) ...same goes with canvas painting, dressmaking, typing, blacksmiths, clay, brick masons, sports, keyboards, guitar, and a billion other things.....

 

Human beings are some clever and tricky little bastages that eventually figure out all the "paths of least resistance" to any given task by incorporating soul, experience, and just the right amount of "touch", with some performing beyond the expectations of others.....and its this "adaption" capacity of the human equation that makes the difference, regardless if they are playing music, flying airplanes, or making wedding dresses........

 

Which is why a human familar with all the idiosyncracies of guitar will give you every reason in the world why the guitar-format supercedes the keyboard-format for expressiveness..... and a proficient keyboardist/synthesist/pianist/organist that knows their instruments in depth and the facets of their performance can point out every advantage that the keyboard-format has for expression over the guitar-format...... and people familiar with reasonable knowledge and/or experience for both will sit on the fence and ping-pong the advantages/disadvantages of either....

 

No offense, Mr Anderton, but its really that simple - therefore not a very good question to begin with.........

[UstadKhanAli]

Neither - which is my point....Have you ever seen a skilled laborerer of a particular facet perform?

 

 

Surely you must have seen my posts, then seen the smiley face on my ridiculous question that was a response to Fretwizz?

[tucktronix]

Actually, IMO, you can deny Jan. Jan gets a lot of attention, but to me he's a one-trick pony.

 

 

Hey Bill,

 

You should check out Jan with Mahavishnu(esp the YouTube footage with Mahavishnu at Syracuse Univ 1972). He absolutely rips on the Rhodes.

 

Folks often associate Jan Hammer w/ guitar-like synth leads. His Rhodes playing is hugely underrated IMO.

[Kendrix]

Interesting thread.
How do we define expressiveness?
Sonically? ( such as one bends notes one doesnt, one does chords one doesnt)

OR

Should expressiveness be measured by the ability to evoke an emotional response in active listeners?

If you use the second definition then, in the right hands, all these instrumments can be equally expressive.

Even so I must say I'm really glad Jimi played electric geetar rather than piano.

[DevilRaysFan]

Surely you must have seen my posts, then seen the smiley face on my ridiculous question that was a response to Fretwizz?

yup -- Lets just say that, when I posted all that, I was posting "Under The Influence"...

[joel Oporto]

It is easier in the onset to be expressive with the guitar but ultimately they are both equally expressive albeit each in its own way with strengths and weaknesses. In the hands of masters, both are equally expressive. Whereas a guitarist will employ slides bends and vibrato, there are piano and keyboard synth techniques that are not available on the guitar. To name a few, glissandos, chord clusters, ten to 14 note harmonies, not to mention the 8 octave range at your disposal. Characteristics of each instruments dictate they will have different ways of expression but will certainly be no less of the other. Blues pianist will not sound the same as a blues guitarist but both will be as similarly expressive. A guitar could never fully express the chordal ruminations of a Rachmaninoff concerto.

[Billster]

Hey Bill, You should check out Jan with Mahavishnu(esp the YouTube footage with Mahavishnu at Syracuse Univ 1972). He absolutely rips on the Rhodes. Folks often associate Jan Hammer w/ guitar-like synth leads. His Rhodes playing is hugely underrated IMO.

Oh, I'm very familiar with the early Mahavishnu stuff. That's actually some of my favorite Jan. The ring modulated Rhodes stuff is cool. It started going downhill when he got a pitch bend wheel.

[Cry Logic]

Surely you must have seen my posts, then seen the smiley face on my ridiculous question that was a response to Fretwizz?

And I hope people notice the winking emoticon on some of my posts.

[Cry Logic]

".....The ring modulated Rhodes stuff is cool....."

 

 

Some of the coolest keyboard playing ever recorded....

[SeattleRuss]

Didn't read the whole thread but....

From a shear physical / physics standpoint, the guitar simply is more "connected" to the player, and can be manipulated in so many ways - I have to go with the guitar on this one. Although I consider piano, B3, rhoades and the like to be much more "alive" than synths / samplers.

With synths / samplers, the bottom line is: you're just turning switches on and off albiet with different velocities. You have much less to do with the actual sound that's coming out of them.

Remember - I'm talking about the potential expressivness of the instrument here, which is what the OP had in mind, correct? I realize that overall expressiveness in going to be down to the musician.

The OP mentioned sax....

There was a time several years back when I was practicing the hell out of the alto and seriously began to get rather bummed out because of how much more expressive the sax is compared to the guitar.....I had to put the sax away as there's only 24 hours in a day and I didn't want to play the guitar less.....

[SeattleRuss]

Billster wrote:

That's actually some of my favorite Jan. The ring modulated Rhodes stuff is cool. It started going downhill when he got a pitch bend wheel.

 

 

I hate to say it but I have to agree with this.....

[alfonso]

 

Should expressiveness be measured by the ability to evoke an emotional response in active listeners? If you use the second definition then, in the right hands, all these instruments can be equally expressive.

 

 

I couldn't say it better, as a general rule. Quality of the instrument within a certain category and a given skill makes the difference.

[alphajerk]

No. How expressive either instrument is will depend on the talent of the person playing it. I have been told that I can be equally expressive on my guitar or my organ.

i didnt have to read any further to find an AMEN! the performer is the one that is expressive, NOT the instrument. a guitar untouched makes as little as expression as a keyboard untouched.

[philbo]

i didnt have to read any further to find an AMEN! the performer is the one that is expressive, NOT the instrument. a guitar untouched makes as little as expression as a keyboard untouched.

Oh, I don't know... An untouched piano (especially a grand piano) says "We're cultured; none of your nasty blonde jokes will be laughed at here"

An untouched guitar (either hanging on the wall or on a guitar stand) says "I'm a rebel, a loner, a neo-beatnik. I listen to NPR"

Both are very expressive when collecting dust.

(Dulcimers are also cool when hanging on the wall)

[Philter]

It depends on which notes you're playing.