Share Your Favorite Tips for Non-Cheesy MIDI Arrangements!

[alphajerk]

"Sounds like MIDI" is the kiss of death for those who listen at certain levels.

 

i try not to make orange juice by using apples... sometimes [most times] it IS what it IS. rarely do i try to make things pass as other things, although like i posted before with BFD, it is getting much easier to never have to deal with a drummer again [i should say {censored}ty drummer, great drummers are GREAT to deal with]

 

most times, if i want an acoustic sound, i play the acoustic instrument and dont try to fool anyone with MIDI. even organ parts and such [guys who spit out midi, i capture their audio output instead of midi.

 

but if i want a fake sound... im certainly not above using samplers and such.

 

hell, even the cheezy old school casio is this kitsch sound that in the right part sounds so cool.

[nat whilk II]

 

most times, if i want an acoustic sound, i play the acoustic instrument and dont try to fool anyone with MIDI. even organ parts and such [guys who spit out midi, i capture their audio output instead of midi. but if i want a fake sound... im certainly not above using samplers and such. hell, even the cheezy old school casio is this kitsch sound that in the right part sounds so cool.

 

 

Well, yeah. I was assuming this thread was all about avoiding the cheese. But sure, it can be great in its own way. Some of Moby's tunes on Ambient are so cheesy and MIDIfied that they are funny, but I still like to listen to them. It's all good if it's uh all good or somthing like that:rolleyes:

 

But maybe that would be better as another thread: How To Make Good Cheese or something....

 

nat whilk ii

[tucktronix]

These days, I've been recording far less MIDI than a few a years ago. Here are a few rules or "tricks" that I abide by:

 

1. The sound or patch quality makes the arrangement Cannot stress this enough. Like Boosh indicated earlier, VSTi instruments have come a very long way towards sonic quality and realism. I would highly suggest using them instead of a hardware MIDI module or synth(unless you using multiple MIDI instruments in a chain. Then, of course, you will be using the "performance" patches rather than the "multi" patches.). After have been doing multi-track MIDI with a sound module for many years, I have switched to Reason 3.0 and never looked back. Also, each track should be effected differently for better separation.

 

2. Only quantize the hi-hats This rule may not apply to everyone. Other folks may have a different way. I normally quantize the basic rhythm pattern, then apply any ghost notes w/o quantization. The kick and snare are played manually with a keyboard controller at slow tempo, including the fills. Sometimes, depending on the simplicity of the groove, the kick and the snare are quantized on the 1st and 4th beat. Adds a lot of realism in depth and variation to your drum tracks. Dynamics are also important, with the snare and kick drum sound altered with the change in velocity.

 

3. Try not to quantize the bass I can't even do a good bass line to save my life. That's why I always lay the bass track with the sequence playing at much slower tempo(for med-tempo to faster tracks). You can really get some amazing stuff, almost like a real bass player.

 

4. Overdub your solos as audio Polyphony can come back to bite you in the ass, especially when you want to want to lay a track of solo piano or lead on top of a thick arrangement. I don't want my solos to be messed with, that's why I record all of my solos as audio.

[rasputin1963]

The cheeziest MIDI moments for me were during the first five years after the explosion of the Internet.....say 1996--2001, when so many websites (by web design novices) would have a MIDI music file start playing automatically upon page load......unbidden by the User. Often, if I was surfing the web late at night, these MIDI arrangements, suddenly blaring forth, would scare the living {censored}e out of me if I wasn't expecting them...

 

Invariably, they were MIDI files done by someone who was ape-ishly trying to emulate the sound of the original hit record.... rare indeed was the MIDI file (in those huge libraries of free MIDIs online) which could really capture the "gravitas", funk and groove of the original record. Too often it just sounded like an ice-cream truck's jingle.

[alphajerk]

 

Well, yeah. I was assuming this thread was all about avoiding the cheese. But sure, it can be great in its own way. Some of Moby's tunes on Ambient are so cheesy and MIDIfied that they are funny, but I still like to listen to them. It's all good if it's uh all good or somthing like that:rolleyes: But maybe that would be better as another thread: How To Make Good Cheese or something.... nat whilk ii

 

 

i guess i was referring to something like ween which used to use the cheesy dum machines but the music was so {censored}ed up, it worked in context.

[Gus Lozada]

... i have written a couple for certain magazine... I wonder If i could retype them in here...

[Anderton]

 

... i have written a couple for certain magazine... I wonder If i could retype them in here...

 

 

Well if you're referring to your articles in EQ, you'll have to ask the Executive Editor. Oh, wait...that's me! Well I just asked myself, and it's okay.

[Cry Logic]

My tip is: Go by what your ears tell you and not what your eyes see.

[Cry Logic]

i guess i was referring to something like ween which used to use the cheesy drum machines but the music was so {censored}ed up, it worked in context.

 

I love drum machines.

I particularly like when they sound totally machine like

and don't try to emulate a real drummer.

 

It's a machine!

We live in the machine age.

Drum machines are for making machine music.

 

If you want it to sound like real drums use a loop.

[philbo]

 

Bzzzt. I disagree. Timing maybe dependent only on the start time, but note duration is one of the biggest elements in creating a groove. Imagine if the bass player pumping out 8th notes never varied the durations. Imagine the piano player held every note to full and equal duration. Etc.

 

 

Actually, my thought here is that no one who is really playing will have all their note durations come out equal, or even close to surgically precise. Both of those would only happen if you quantise (or manually overtweak) note durations.

 

It was yet another attempt to keep human-ness of the performance from being edited out.

[Synonym Music]

Actually, my thought here is that no one who is really playing will have all their note durations come out equal, or even close to surgically precise. Both of those would only happen if you quantise (or manually overtweak) note durations. It was yet another attempt to keep human-ness of the performance from being edited out.

 

 

Good point. I'd still lean otherwise on monophonic instrumentation; decent players such as I don't have the tightest timing.

[prodrigu]

Check this midi arrangement I made for a cover song:

 

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=280770&songID=3049216

 

I used many if the tricks you guys suggested in this thread :-)

[Phil O'Keefe]

Arrange the part from the real instrument's perspective, taking into account the instrument's range, common uses in arrangements and specific playing techniques. If you want to sound "real", get the best sound sources (VSTi's, samples, hardware synths, etc.) you can, and then play and program as authentically as you can. If you're doing a wind part, think like a wind player. IOW, think about phrasing and breathe once in a while...

 

If the part's too fast or difficult, don't resort to "drawing it in" or over-quantizing it - instead, slow down the tempo just enough to where you can play it properly, then increase the tempo to full speed after you track. This oftentimes will result in a more natural feeling part.

 

For drums, think like a drummer. No "three cymbals and a tom fill playing all at once" please. Another thing I strongly recommend is that you find something to hit (a drum controller, pads, keyboard - whatever works for you), and play as much of your MIDI drum part as you can. If that means just kick and snare together, then overdubbing a hi hat, do it. At least you're playing, and getting some humanity and feel into it.

[Billster]

Actually, my thought here is that no one who is really playing will have all their note durations come out equal, or even close to surgically precise. Both of those would only happen if you quantise (or manually overtweak) note durations. It was yet another attempt to keep human-ness of the performance from being edited out.

 

That's true, yes. My point was that good phrasing requires attention to note duration. A staccato eighth note is not the same as a sixteenth note. Marcato is not the same as staccato. And for polyphonic instruments, legato is not the same as sostenuto. Etc.

[philbo]

That's true, yes. My point was that good phrasing requires attention to note duration. A staccato eighth note is not the same as a sixteenth note. Marcato is not the same as staccato. And for polyphonic instruments, legato is not the same as sostenuto. Etc.

 

Yes, absolutely, we are on common ground here, coming from different directions perhaps... It is precisely that phrasing and feel that needs to be left alone to keep it natural sounding.

 

Of course, all my comments are directed towards my own little corner of the musical universe - - there is tons of music that uses nothing but drum machines and looped phrases... Just none that I'm interested in hearing

[flatfinger]

Use the dam expression controllers; (pitch wheels ect.)

 

 

 

 

:D

[joel Oporto]

First of all the sounds are what makes the arrangement,

- VSTi and such are excellent.

- Always put in a real time audio part with the arrangement.

 

the second is a good understanding of what actual players of each instrument do, or is characteristic with that instrument for the style of music. Use different patches to represent certain instruments with corresponding pitch bend range. (say for strings, don't rely on a single patch, but have a group of them (marcato spicatto, etc. etc. to much how the actual musicians wiould do the bowing))

Mostly Quantize only the 1 and three but not much the others(except arpeggiated chords and slides/slurs)(doesn't always work with some styles of music)(e.g. delayed or advenced snares)

 

If you can, don't ever make a final mix from midi, render each track to audio and then mix and apply the effects as you would a regular multi-track audio recording.

[Billster]

If you can, don't ever make a final mix from midi, render each track to audio and then mix and apply the effects as you would a regular multi-track audio recording.

 

Oh yeah, that's huge for some reason. Especially the drums.

 

Your other ideas (esp. limited quantization) are excellent too.

[amplayer]

My number one tip (obvious as it is) is to mix in one or two real instruments to go along with all the MIDI instruments. It is amazing to me how much the addition of only one simple live solo violin or solo guitar, etc., can make a track that is otherwise full of softsynths sound like a believable piece of music.

 

SPAM:

Please feel free to head over to my website at www.andrewplayer.com and listen to some of my stuff. Most of it is MIDI...

[pbognar]

These days, I've been recording far less MIDI than a few a years ago. Here are a few rules or "tricks" that I abide by: 1. The sound or patch quality makes the arrangement Cannot stress this enough. Like Boosh indicated earlier, VSTi instruments have come a very long way towards sonic quality and realism. I would highly suggest using them instead of a hardware MIDI module or synth(unless you using multiple MIDI instruments in a chain. Then, of course, you will be using the "performance" patches rather than the "multi" patches.). After have been doing multi-track MIDI with a sound module for many years, I have switched to Reason 3.0 and never looked back. Also, each track should be effected differently for better separation.

 

Need a little clarification on the Reason versus external MIDI module comment: Are you saying that Reason allows you to create sounds no one has ever heard of before, and that people might recognize sounds in external modules? Or are you saying you shouldn't rely on a single multitimbral external MIDI module for all the parts?

[tucktronix]

Need a little clarification on the Reason versus external MIDI module comment: Are you saying that Reason allows you to create sounds no one has ever heard of before, and that people might recognize sounds in external modules? Or are you saying you shouldn't rely on a single multitimbral external MIDI module for all the parts?

 

My post on using Reason had nothing to do with creating unique sounds(which is NOT the point of the thread, btw). I merely suggested using VSTi's of some sort(doesn't necessarily have to be Reason) instead of a multitimbral module for creating a more believable MIDI arrangement.

[pbognar]

 

My post on using Reason had nothing to do with creating unique sounds(which is NOT the point of the thread, btw). I merely suggested using VSTi's of some sort(doesn't necessarily have to be Reason) instead of a multitimbral module for creating a more believable MIDI arrangement.

 

 

Just trying to understand what you are suggesting... Are you saying that VSTi's , in general, sound more believable than external modules?

 

I guess I would have to say that would depend on which VSTi you are using. You could be using Edirol's Virtual Sound Canvas versus a Korg Oasyis...

 

I've heard some pretty lame VSTi's and some excellent keyboards and module, and vice versa.

 

For many people, the amount of available computing power would dictate what they are going to use, eg. if you don't have a lot of spare CPU/memory, you might stick with the computer for audio tasks, and offload MIDI sound generation to external device, and when you are happy with the MIDI, print it to audio tracks.

 

However, I can certainly see where having VSTi's and DXi's are extremely convenient, but they have to sound good, and you have to have the computer resources to run them.

 

I've heard some pretty good things said about SampleTank as well.

[claveslave]

Mostly Quantize only the 1 and three but not much the others (except arpeggiated chords and slides/slurs)

 

THE tip of the thread, so far.

[Cry Logic]

Just trying to understand what you are suggesting... Are you saying that VSTi's , in general, sound more believable than external modules?

 

Another big consideration is price.

Without paying an arm and a leg,you'd be hard put to find an

external synth that could even come close to some of the

DXi/Vsti available today.

 

The other thing many people overlook is the ease of bouncing

softsynths to audio, quite fiddly with many external devices,

where you have to physically record the audio from each synth

track and you have to worry about things like delay compensation.

 

In programs like SONAR or FL Studio, bouncing is a few clicks of the mouse

at most.

 

Softsynths are the way of the future and the future is now.

[Cry Logic]

Play a midi controller rather than drawing in notes or using a drum machine.......... .........This gives it the groove and feel that only a human can impart. Then, once you have the feel & groove, avoid destroying it by tweaking and quantizing.

 

Of course that is assuming you want the music to have a "human" feel.

There are many genres of music around today where it is quite acceptable

to sound "machine like" and quantize is not frowned upon.