Midi Drums verses Looped Drums

[flatfinger]

I noticed latley allot of products like Band in a Box are going to wav play and saying This beats the heck out of midi drums. This is one of Drum Cores ( Submersible Audio) biggest claims ( that the loops the provided are recorded in 5bpm increments an this means the grooves will be better because drummers play differently at diff. speeds).

 

I've had some succes with midi drums and drum machines . Usually I have to use the heck out of the swing or groove quanitize, But I like the results . Am I missing something or are midi drumms passe?????

 

Tx

 

:D

:D

[333maxwell]

I noticed latley allot of products like Band in a Box are going to wav play and saying This beats the heck out of midi drums. This is one of Drum Cores ( Submersible Audio) biggest claims ( that the loops the provided are recorded in 5bpm increments an this means the grooves will be better because drummers play differently at diff. speeds). I've had some succes with midi drums and drum machines . Usually I have to use the heck out of the swing or groove quanitize, But I like the results . Am I missing something or are midi drumms passe????? Tx :D :D

 

Midi is like Tofu...

 

If people have it prepared bad the first few times, they decide it is crap.

 

Midi is a wonderful medium.. and has it's place.. as do loops and on top of both, triggered samples of drums, played through the keyboard.

 

Midi is essential to some VERY HIGH profile composers.. it is not a toy, nor an internet 'juke box' when used as a tool.. the tool being to capture musical impressions as triggered by (fill in the blank.. a keyboard.. a drum pad.. a whole kit.. VSTinstruments etc etc)...

 

Midi is MORE valid today than it has ever been.. especialy when used to trigger VERY REAL sounds..

 

_________

 

So after that diatribe.. in short.. NO midi is not dead..

 

___________

 

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandid=676362

[Cry Logic]

Both are valid tools for musical expression.

It's not an either/or situation.

[Lee Knight]

The tofu analogy is great!

 

Hey flatfinger. If you haven't used loops, you should. The real magic comes from combining all of the above into your own soup. Tofu and and all. I love subliminal, human played shakers over a midi beat. Or a live hat with midi beat. Or a stiff midi hat against a human kick and snare pattern.

 

Like I said... it's not one or the other.

[Kendrix]

I use mid drums on my own home recordings. These are usually complemented by some of my own recorded tracks of perc and the like to add additional live feel to my attempts at individualizing each midi sction.

 

I feel that I would be giving up some control by using loops.

In midi I often tune the drums and cymbals depending on the needs of the arrangement.

I can select my snare and kick drum for each tune- and process them seperately.

The thought of how to orgnize and select loops for a given section/tune seems complicated to me.

Then you have the tempo adjustments to deal with.

 

For those who feel otherwise what am i missing?

[Cry Logic]

 

I feel that I would be giving up some control by using loops.

 

 

Au contraire mon ami....

 

It just depends on what kind of loops you are using and

what you are using to play them with.

 

One method I use is to play back loops in FL Studio

using the Fruity Slicer.

 

Once a loop is loaded into the slicer it will follow

whatever tempo you set.

You can use this feature to tempo match loops with

different tempos.

You can also cut and paste individual slices.

Copy them to new positions in the loop.

Double them up on the same beat and alter the

pitch, pan, resonance, and filter cutoff of each

individual slice!!

Even slices on the same beat can have different settings

for all those parameters.

Turn effects up for just one particular slice and down for all the rest.

Or separate out different slices to different tracks.

For example, you could cut all the snare hits out of a loop and

paste them into another instance of the slicer and send just that that to a reverb,

 

 

You can adjust the envelope on the Slicer and every slice will be

affected, somewhat like a gate, enabling you to tighten up the

feel of the loop and/or turn a reverberant loop into a dry one....

 

The list of possibilities goes on & on & on... seemingly limited

only by the composers imagination......

[Kendrix]

 

Au contraire mon ami.... It just depends on what kind of loops you are using and what you are using to play them with. One method I use is to play back loops in FL Studio using the Fruity Slicer. Once a loop is loaded into the slicer it will follow whatever tempo you set. You can use this feature to tempo match loops with different tempos. You can also cut and paste individual slices. Copy them to new positions in the loop. Double them up on the same beat and alter the pitch, pan, resonance, and filter cutoff of each individual slice!! Even slices on the same beat can have different settings for all those parameters. Turn effects up for just one particular slice and down for all the rest. Or separate out different slices to different tracks. For example, you could cut all the snare hits out of a loop and paste them into another instance of the slicer and send just that that to a reverb, You can adjust the envelope on the Slicer and every slice will be affected, somewhat like a gate, enabling you to tighten up the feel of the loop and/or turn a reverberant loop into a dry one.... The list of possibilities goes on & on & on... seemingly limited only by the composers imagination......

 

 

I hear ya.

However, if you are slicing up the loops that finely it almost gets to the point that the difference between loops and individual samples becomes slight - in terms of the "programming" effort required. perhaps when you get to that point it just a matter of what format you are most comfortable working with.

 

You still cant select or tune or process the individual sounds of the kit with sliced loops.

 

Cheers

[ryan7585]

 

Au contraire mon ami.... It just depends on what kind of loops you are using and what you are using to play them with. One method I use is to play back loops in FL Studio using the Fruity Slicer. Once a loop is loaded into the slicer it will follow whatever tempo you set. You can use this feature to tempo match loops with different tempos. You can also cut and paste individual slices. Copy them to new positions in the loop. Double them up on the same beat and alter the pitch, pan, resonance, and filter cutoff of each individual slice!! Even slices on the same beat can have different settings for all those parameters. Turn effects up for just one particular slice and down for all the rest. Or separate out different slices to different tracks. For example, you could cut all the snare hits out of a loop and paste them into another instance of the slicer and send just that that to a reverb, You can adjust the envelope on the Slicer and every slice will be affected, somewhat like a gate, enabling you to tighten up the feel of the loop and/or turn a reverberant loop into a dry one.... The list of possibilities goes on & on & on... seemingly limited only by the composers imagination......

 

 

there are still issues though, a "slice" isn't gonna be just the drum sound by itself

[flatfinger]

Well ryan7585,

If they are drum loops only then they should be background clutter free??

 

Any how I decided to get DrumCore and give it a try. I like the "Gabrializer" feature and Think I should be using both loops and midi. TX for all your input guys!

 

:D

:D

[Magpel]

Even as loops get better and more "micro-manageable," I am more fatigued by their sound and their ubiquity.

 

For me, The problem on the simplest level is that, no matter how slicable and programmable they may be, it is still not possible to get loops engaged with the other parts of your arrangement in any but the crudest way. The "rhythm bed" approach to drumming has its uses and its value, but for me there are clear limits to what you can do with breakdowns, and build ups, filter effects, etc. The drummers I most like in the flesh-'n-blood world are ALWAYS speaking to and with all the other instruments in the arrangement, even the vocalist, even the lyrics for pete's sake. The singer/songwriter and Old 97s frontman Rhett Miller lives in my town. Like many around here, I've hung out with a him a few times, and I asked him once what it was like recording with Matt Chamberlian. He said he's never known a drummer who plays to the lyrics of a song better than Chamberlain. Trying doing that with loops.

[Anderton]

Even as loops get better and more "micro-manageable," I am more fatigued by their sound and their ubiquity.

 

But...that's like Auto-Tune. When I hear a vocal being auto-tuned, it makes my skin crawl. But when auto-tune is used properly, you don't know it's being auto-tuned. There are some parts that scream "loop," but there are some loops where it's hard to tell whether it's really a loop or not...those are the ones I like best.

 

For me, The problem on the simplest level is that, no matter how slicable and programmable they may be, it is still not possible to get loops engaged with the other parts of your arrangement in any but the crudest way.

 

Unless you find a loop so inspiring that you arrange and write around the loop, which I think is valid too.

 

And sometimes, it's a matter of dumb luck. I was working on one tune and used Discrete Drums loops because it was as if they were written for the tune (which of course, they weren't). But there were so many variations and permutations on the basic riffs that I could also put together a highly customized part that did, indeed, have interplay with the song because I made sure it did!

 

I pretty much agree with the "it's all good" concept. I use loops, I use MIDI, I use MIDI to make my own loops, and I'm putting together a band project with a Real Live Drummer and can hardly wait...there's nothing like working with a great drummer. But there's nothing like working with loops, either, and when a human drummer uses MIDI to make loops...like I said, it's all good.

[Cry Logic]

 

there are still issues though, a "slice" isn't gonna be just the drum sound by itself

 

 

In practice you can tweak and manipulate to the point

where that doesn't matter.

 

You could for example find one slice where the drum sound...

let's say it's a snare... is actually on it's own... and then replace

all other snare hits.. (which may, for example have Kicks or hats

on that slice as well.. )with the single snare hit.

 

Or ... as I said above ... cut out the Snare from a loop

load it into it's own instance of the Slicer and then replace

it with another sample....

 

The trick is to let go of limitations caused by traditional, accepted ways of working

and open your mind to new paradigms.

 

These techiniques I mentioned above are using the Slicer in FL Studio.

There'e plenty of other looping programs that have their own way of handling loops.

Like FXpansions' GURU or Spectrasonics' Stylus RMX.

Very good programs with their own unique approach to looping.

 

Don't get me wrong... I'm not advocating only using loops.

I like a good midi drum track as much as the next guy.

I also like Electronically generated drum sounds,

as in

[Cry Logic]

 

Even as loops get better and more "micro-manageable," I am more fatigued by their sound and their ubiquity. For me, The problem on the simplest level is that, no matter how slicable and programmable they may be, it is still not possible to get loops engaged with the other parts of your arrangement in any but the crudest way. The "rhythm bed" approach to drumming has its uses and its value, but for me there are clear limits to what you can do with breakdowns, and build ups, filter effects, etc. The drummers I most like in the flesh-'n-blood world are ALWAYS speaking to and with all the other instruments in the arrangement, even the vocalist, even the lyrics for pete's sake. The singer/songwriter and Old 97s frontman Rhett Miller lives in my town. Like many around here, I've hung out with a him a few times, and I asked him once what it was like recording with Matt Chamberlian. He said he's never known a drummer who plays to the lyrics of a song better than Chamberlain. Trying doing that with loops.

 

 

If you can't play drums and you don't have access to the

Matt Chamberlains of this world, loops can get you a lot closer than

you would be otherwise.....

 

Having said that, for many people, emulating "real" drummers is not the goal.

Why even bother when there are so many new avenues of expression

available with samples, loops and electronically generated sounds?

It's simply not important to some of us as to whether it could've been played

by a human with a "real" drumkit....

 

Looping is no different than any other form of music making.

You have to have talent for it and apply ingenuity and imagination.

Not everyone has a knack for it....

[Cry Logic]

 

Even as loops get better and more "micro-manageable," I am more fatigued by their sound and their ubiquity.

 

 

I'm fatigued by the sound and ubiquity of rock/country/blues guitar

or a standard drum kit....

 

These sounds have been around for decades and it's

getting harder and harder to come up with something

unique & original.....

[Cry Logic]

I hear ya. You still cant select or tune or process the individual sounds of the kit with sliced loops.

 

In practice you can get so close it doesn't matter.

 

In FL Studios' Slicer you can process and tune individual slices.

And you can move and manipulate slices till they are, for all intents

and purposes, individual sounds with their own processing.

 

It just requires a different approach to the "old" traditional mindset

of starting with every sound on it's own unique track/channel....

 

Instead of thinking "Outside the Box" ... think "Inside the Box".

[Cry Logic]

 

But...that's like Auto-Tune. When I hear a vocal being auto-tuned, it makes my skin crawl.

 

 

Now that's something I don't understand.

Back in the 60's & 70's a new effect was

something to be marvelled at and caused

great excitement.

 

Can you remember the 1st time you heard

a waawaa? Or A fuzzBox?

What about the Chorus effect?..

I remember being blown away by that...

the sound of LSD in an FX pedal!!!!

 

Now we have the "Autotune" effect and people

are cringing.

To me it's just as valid/invalid as any other effect.

In the right context it is an amazing effect.

Out of context it doesn't work.

But it's not cringeworthy of and by itself.....

[Magpel]

 

I'm fatigued by the sound and ubiquity of rock/country/blues guitar or a standard drum kit....

 

 

Me too! Well, at least the rock/blues guitar part. And I like plenty of music that does not employ "real" drummers. I don't think my comment about loops not engaging with the other parts of arrangement expresses any genre preference at all. It's a compositional observation, not a stylistic one.

[sventvkg]

Here's what you need. Addictive Drums http://www.xlnaudio.com/:thu:

[Alndln2]

I prefer midi with Toontraks EZ Drummer these days. Using it in Sonar with the Acidized midi groove clip function is what I wanted all along. I like having a consistant quality kit sound throughout most of my stuff, and whatever is not availible with EZ drummers beats I just do myself on either my keyboard or Roland Octapad which is way faster than searching through my audio drum loop collection, and quality after tempo changes remains consistant as well. I tried Drumcore, but I only liked a couple of Alan Whites things, and maybe Sly Dunbars but overall it didn't suit me, besides at the time it was only rewire(maybe that's changed now). As far as having access to a quality drummers beats, that really doesn't work for me because their not here working on my composition with me and I only have access to "one size fit's all" beats from them that may or may not work besides the time it takes to sift through it all. It's much faster in the creative flow to just do it myself. So midi is my personal best solution. I do keep my eyes open for midi loops by 3rd party's as well though.

[Cry Logic]

 

Me too! Well, at least the rock/blues guitar part. And I like plenty of music that does not employ "real" drummers. I don't think my comment about loops not engaging with the other parts of arrangement expresses any genre preference at all. It's a compositional observation, not a stylistic one.

 

 

I take your point.

And I agree with you in a way.

 

I think many people fall into the trap of thinking

using loops is the easy way out, when it's actually

quite difficult to sit a loop in a song and make it work.

 

As I said above, it requires ingenuity and imagination

to be a good Looper. Just like any other musical skill.

 

I'm still learning myself ... but I can see the potential.

[Ernest Buckley]

Just from my own work with MIDI, I have found it to be a very important element to what I do from pre-production through mixing. MIDI drums have their place and the best results I have experienced have come from mixing the MIDI sounds with real human sounds (percussion, vocals, guitars, etc..)

 

I have also heard some incredible work done strictly using MIDI instruments. It is quite enlightening to see how pros incorporate these elements into their productions.

[techristian]

I'm a drummer and I like editing and looping my own drums rather than MIDI drums, but my entire first cd was mostly MIDI drums because the sounds were better than I can record. If I ever finish the CD I'm working on now , you will hear some good drum loops.

 

As far as MIDI goes, remember LESS IS MORE. A seasoned drummer will NOT play a roll EVERY 8 BARS. It is a dead giveaway that MIDI is being used when I hear 16th note rolls every 8 bars.

 

MIDI is also better used in POP drums. The nuances of fast parradiddles and ghost notes get lost in MIDI.

 

Dan

 

POP DRUM EXAMPLE

[sventvkg]

 

I'm a drummer and I like editing and looping my own drums rather than MIDI drums, but my entire first cd was mostly MIDI drums because the sounds were better than I can record. If I ever finish the CD I'm working on now , you will hear some good drum loops. As far as MIDI goes, remember LESS IS MORE. A seasoned drummer will NOT play a roll EVERY 8 BARS. It is a dead giveaway that MIDI is being used when I hear 16th note rolls every 8 bars. MIDI is also better used in POP drums. The nuances of fast parradiddles and ghost notes get lost in MIDI. Dan POP DRUM EXAMPLE

 

 

Not the new MIDI instruments like EZ drummer and Addictive Drums. Check em out.

[tradivoro1]

I find that now and then audio loops work well... It depends on the composition... I'm not a guy who does dance music, but definitely now and then I use loops, and then use fills and stuff from midi drums... It all depends on the composition, and when the loops work with the composition, it adds to whole overall music tremendously...

 

As for the comment about the sound of blues guitar and standard drum kit, in those types of medium, the music it's not about the "sounds", it's about the musicianship and the playing, it's about the song, it's about the lyrics... As long as people have a well recorded guitar and well recorded drums, and a good professional mix, that's all that matters, the "sounds" are secondary to the music...

 

I'm not a guy who records traditional music, but when it comes to certain types of music, like blues and country, give me a guy/gal who can sing and play and write good songs... If I want to hear interesting sounds and stuff, there are other types of music for which that is far more appropriate..