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can a single 8" high quality guitar speaker "move air" or not?

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  • #16
    I see. So a boost pedal could be used in place of an overdrive or distortion pedal instead, when one has a tube amp? I've seen people on youtube demo combo amps/cabs without any distortion pedal but the amp has distortion when cranked up (they say that it's the natural distortion from the amp itself without the use of any overdrive pedal whatsoever). I'm not sure if it was tube amp that was demoed but probably a solid state.

    Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe View Post

    Boost pedals are generally used in one of two ways - as a volume boost, or as a dirt boost.

    When running into a clean amp with lots of available headroom, a modest boost of 6dB or so can be used as a level boost - the signal will still stay fairly clean, but the volume level will increase.

    When running into a tube amp that is set to the edge of breakup - IOW, to where it's just starting to break up and distort - the boost pedal will send it over the edge and into full overdrive. That's the way that players like Bluesbreakers and Cream-era Eric Clapton, Rory Gallagher and Brian May tended to use their boosts - for more grind and grit, as opposed to a level increase.
    Last edited by samal50; 05-07-2019, 07:57 PM.
    https://www.rakuten.com/r/CHICHI1336...edium=raf_link

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    • #17
      Some boosts are just a gain stage with an amount knob. Since these are essentially preamps, it's a natural progression to tone and drive knobs. You can end up with everything on the face of your amp, on the floor as well. All that happens is at any given stage, the signal or some specific spectrum of it can be increased or decreased. Exceeding the capacity of any subsequent stage results in clipping/overdrive/distortion/enter own term. This can be tubes or solid states. The natural distortion being claimed is usually a hot preamp driving the big tubes into clipping. I'm not sure if a SS power stage can be clipped in this manner or needs a pre-clipped signal to fake it. Regardless, with modern tech advances the sonic distinctions are fading.
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      • #18
        Originally posted by 1001gear View Post
        . . . The natural distortion being claimed is usually a hot preamp driving the big tubes into clipping. I'm not sure if a SS power stage can be clipped in this manner or needs a pre-clipped signal to fake it. Regardless, with modern tech advances the sonic distinctions are fading.
        "Clipping" in a SS amp sounds pretty bad. The resulting distortion is odd numbered harmonics (3KHz, 5KHz, 7KHz, etc. for a 1KHz signal) vs. even harmonics from a tube amp.
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        • #19
          Originally posted by DeepEnd View Post
          "Clipping" in a SS amp sounds pretty bad. The resulting distortion is odd numbered harmonics (3KHz, 5KHz, 7KHz, etc. for a 1KHz signal) vs. even harmonics from a tube amp.
          Granted I lack insight on the specific differences beyond the simple facts but I would like to see innovations that allow tubeless and musical SS clipping.
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          • #20
            Originally posted by samal50 View Post
            I see. So a boost pedal could be used in place of an overdrive or distortion pedal instead, when one has a tube amp?
            Yes.

            I've seen people on youtube demo combo amps/cabs without any distortion pedal but the amp has distortion when cranked up (they say that it's the natural distortion from the amp itself without the use of any overdrive pedal whatsoever). I'm not sure if it was tube amp that was demoed but probably a solid state.
            Some amps do have the ability to produce distorted or overdriven tones without any assistance from pedals - that includes both tube and solid state amps. You can generally get even "more" dirt from them with a boost pedal slamming the input of the amp harder, but that generally works best with tube amps and not solid state amps.
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            • #21
              Originally posted by 1001gear View Post
              Granted I lack insight on the specific differences beyond the simple facts but I would like to see innovations that allow tubeless and musical SS clipping.
              So would I. The Vox Valvetronix amps use a 12AX7 as a power tube and then boost the signal with a SS circuit. That's about the best present option I know of. Clipping happens differently in tube and SS amps though. When a SS amp clips you get something like the red trace with the tops and bottoms of the waves chopped off. A tube behaves more like the yellow trace, rounding off the wave, more like compression. You'd need a circuit that creates both even harmonics and compression to get a tube-like sound.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by DeepEnd View Post
                So would I. The Vox Valvetronix amps use a 12AX7 as a power tube and then boost the signal with a SS circuit. That's about the best present option I know of. Clipping happens differently in tube and SS amps though. When a SS amp clips you get something like the red trace with the tops and bottoms of the waves chopped off. A tube behaves more like the yellow trace, rounding off the wave, more like compression. You'd need a circuit that creates both even harmonics and compression to get a tube-like sound.

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                Marshall did this in the 90s with their ValveState amps...they sounded great but were unreliable for extensive gigging [don't ask how I know ].

                I have to say that Quilter has somehow figured out how to get their amps to simulate tube clipping pretty darned well... I was a skeptic for years until I spent time with one...then I bought it!
                "We are currently experiencing some technical difficulties due to reality fluctuations. The elves are working tirelessly to patch the correct version of reality. Activities here have been temporarily disabled since the fundamentals of mathematics, physics and reason may be incomprehensible during this indeterminate period of instability. Normal service will be restored once we are certain as to what 'normal' is."

                Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally used up and worn out, shouting '...man, what a ride!'

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by daddymack View Post
                  Marshall did this in the 90s with their ValveState amps...they sounded great but were unreliable for extensive gigging [don't ask how I know ].

                  I have to say that Quilter has somehow figured out how to get their amps to simulate tube clipping pretty darned well... I was a skeptic for years until I spent time with one...then I bought it!
                  I thought Marshall used their tube in the preamp rather than the power amp? I actually almost bought a used ValveState amp before I found my Roland Cube. When I pointed out that the reverb didn't work, the owner didn't want to take a chance it couldn't be fixed by just installing a new tank. I'm acquainted with Quilter's reputation but I haven't had a chance to try one.
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                  • #24
                    Still made, but they are like a grand.



                    These are not, but you can find one for like 4-5 hundred.


                    I have a Gibson GA5.



                    One of my fav lp's of all time was done on a champ.
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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by DeepEnd View Post
                      I thought Marshall used their tube in the preamp rather than the power amp? I actually almost bought a used ValveState amp before I found my Roland Cube. When I pointed out that the reverb didn't work, the owner didn't want to take a chance it couldn't be fixed by just installing a new tank. I'm acquainted with Quilter's reputation but I haven't had a chance to try one.
                      Yes the tube was a 12AX7 preamp tube...as to SS pre and power/output tubes, that was MusicMan back in the 70's...https://www.vintageguitar.com/12887/...hd-130-reverb/
                      great amps, heavy to haul...I see them around on occasion, but not often.
                      Last edited by daddymack; 05-08-2019, 09:26 PM.
                      "We are currently experiencing some technical difficulties due to reality fluctuations. The elves are working tirelessly to patch the correct version of reality. Activities here have been temporarily disabled since the fundamentals of mathematics, physics and reason may be incomprehensible during this indeterminate period of instability. Normal service will be restored once we are certain as to what 'normal' is."

                      Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally used up and worn out, shouting '...man, what a ride!'

                      "The greatness of a man is not in how much wealth he acquires, but in his integrity and his ability to affect those around him positively" ~Bob Marley

                      Solipsism is the new empiricism. -Alan Burdick

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by daddymack View Post

                        Marshall did this in the 90s with their ValveState amps...they sounded great but were unreliable for extensive gigging [don't ask how I know ].

                        I have to say that Quilter has somehow figured out how to get their amps to simulate tube clipping pretty darned well... I was a skeptic for years until I spent time with one...then I bought it!
                        Marshall uses the tube in the front end. They use Mosfets in the power amp which use a drain and gate which are operate closer to a tube then a standard transistor amp.

                        Only the larger Valvestates have the preamp tubes. The smaller ones don't. I've had one of the 100W heads since they were new and have has zero problems with it gigging on a regular basis. Same with the two 15W versions I've owned. I Keep regular tabs on used and blown gear on eBay because I am a tech and buy units needing repair or refurb then resell them at higher costs. There may be 1 Valvestate per month that comes up and allot of those have clear signs of abuse. When you compare the Marshall to other amps, you quickly find there is easily 20 blown Fenders amps to every Marshall you find. Maybe there are fewer because the amps are worth more and therefore more profitable to repair them, but on any given day, Valvestate amps are much tougher to find.

                        From the listings I've seen I suspect the blown ones are caused by people connect extra speakers and overload the heads. The pots, jacks and switches aren't nearly as good as what you find in most tube amps of course. They are worse then any other SS amp being manufactured and even better then many of the low budget amps. You can do much worse when it comes to SS amps when it comes to tone and durability.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by daddymack View Post

                          Yes the tube was a 12AX7 preamp tube...as to SS pre and power/output tubes, that was MusicMan back in the 70's...https://www.vintageguitar.com/12887/...hd-130-reverb/
                          great amps, heavy to haul...I see them around on occasion, but not often.
                          I have a mint condition Music Man 65 Head form the 70's. Its even still got its chrome intact.
                          Heavy and durable, but it isn't one of my favorite amps. It comes close to a Fender amp, but in my opinion, they would have been better amps with a Tube front end, or even a Tube front end and SS power amp.

                          Power tubes with a SS preamp really doesn't do that much for tone. At least not with the preamp they chose. I think the biggest flaw is the preamp knob adds overdrive when you crank it up. If you dial back the master volume and turn up the channel volume it ads an overdrive which isn't that good. It doesn't sound like a tube amp and it doesn't sound like a decent overdrive pedal either. Its pretty unusable by todays standards, I'm able to use other pedals in front of the amp and run the head mostly clean but it would have been much better if they had a separate clean and driven channels instead of having the channel volume overdrive.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by DeepEnd View Post
                            So would I. The Vox Valvetronix amps use a 12AX7 as a power tube and then boost the signal with a SS circuit. That's about the best present option I know of. Clipping happens differently in tube and SS amps though. When a SS amp clips you get something like the red trace with the tops and bottoms of the waves chopped off. A tube behaves more like the yellow trace, rounding off the wave, more like compression. You'd need a circuit that creates both even harmonics and compression to get a tube-like sound.

                            Click image for larger version  Name:	clip.gif Views:	1 Size:	4.1 KB ID:	32516490
                            The biggest problems on early Transistor amps was the high levels of Crossover distortion in A/B amps which is composed of mainly 3rd order harmonics. A standard SS amp was NOT designed to be pushed to distort. They were designed to be run 100% clean. They later started adding overdrive circuits and drive channels where the preamp was overdriven. only some newer designs have played around trying to get the power amps to distort the way tube amps do. If you accidentally overdrove a SS amp you'd get what's called hard clipping which is musically unusable. Its very much like having a blown speaker.

                            Its also highly risky to push a SS amp that hard. Ne amps typically have voltages set where even at max volume you never reach the point where the transistors hard clip. In many vintage amps the power amps were weak enough where you could push the preamp hard enough to get the power transistors to reach the point of acting more like a switch then an amplifying device. This was typically short lived because there is such a small margin between hard clipping and blow outs, most amps didn't survive being pushed it hard clip. The power transistors would simply overheat, short out and smock the amp.

                            You can read the stories on the first SS Vox amps made by Thomas Organ were the Beatles used them on tour. They were blowing them up left and right when pushed to be loud enough for audiences to hear.

                            There were many SS amps that had drive channels which are as good as many drive pedals used today. They use the same circuits in many cases. The drive is done in the front end and the power amp runs 100% clean.

                            Tube amps typically have soft clipping which is favored by most players because it comes on as described, starting softly and becoming harder as the signal amplitude increases. They were dynamically responsive with a broad range of clip softly based on the strength of the input signal. Its has a "Wider" clip range based on playing dynamics and the player has a much broader range in how hard they can hit the notes and get the notes to clip. light attack, light clip, harder attack, harder clipping, hard slam, even harder clipping. Its a 1:1 experience which you only fully understand when using the gear.

                            Most SS, this clipping range is greatly reduced. You might be able to get something clean when playing light but by the time you get to a normal pick attack going you've already achieved maximum saturation. Digging in hard causes no additional clipping. The saturation curve is much more vertical then tubes can be.

                            A clean SS amp which goes from clean to clipping is darn near vertical. There is no ramp based on string dynamics, it goes from 100% clean to 100% square wave with nothing usable in between. Because of the unpredictable nature of the hard distortion when pushing an amp too hard, the amps were often unjustly hated by players. some had wonderful cleans but they hadn't been designed to prevent the hard clipping.

                            Most new amps on the other hand can be pushed as hard as possible, even using booster pedals and never achieve hard power amp clipping.

                            The other thing is the difference and strength of the gain stages. Tube amps typically have two or three gain stages in the preamp. 4 if there is a drive channel. The inverter is 1:1 and simply splits the signal into half waves and each power tube amplifies half the wave which combine to give the speaker a full wave.

                            A SS amp running at lower voltages and having amplification devices with smaller gain factors typically needs more gain stages in series to achieve the same loudness as a tube amp. You can easily have 4 gain stages fed into and inverter then medium power transistors feeding power transistors.

                            The gain of each stage is smaller so your dynamic range playing going from clean to full saturation is narrower.

                            Of course the more gain stages you have the more times the signal is replicated at a higher volume. The more times you make a copy of a copy the more details are lost and the more noise and distortion gets added to the signal

                            FETs have been around a long time can function nearly identical to how tubes operate except at lower volumes. They sound far less sterile and react well to the players strings. The Gate works much like a screen in a tube screen does allowing current flow. Mosfets are some of the best power transistors you can use because they produce allot of wattage, with low heat, low distortion and low noise.

                            The only thing I've seen that might wind up making a big change in amps is the NuTube technology recently introduced by Korg which is really interesting. if these can be used in series in place of transistors, and actually overdrive and compress like normal tubes do we may see an entirely new breed of low cost amps that have the power consumption and weight of a SS amp and the drive and tone of a tube amp without the need of high voltage transformers and fragile tubes.

                            Unfortunately there aren't too many amp manufacturers using them yet and I don't think i'll still be around when the patents expire where anyone can use them.
                            Last edited by WRGKMC; 05-09-2019, 10:28 AM.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by WRGKMC View Post
                              I've had one of the 100W heads since they were new and have has zero problems with it gigging on a regular basis. Same with the two 15W versions I've owned. I Keep regular tabs on used and blown gear on eBay because I am a tech and buy units needing repair or refurb then resell them at higher costs. There may be 1 Valvestate per month that comes up and allot of those have clear signs of abuse. When you compare the Marshall to other amps, you quickly find there is easily 20 blown Fenders amps to every Marshall you find. Maybe there are fewer because the amps are worth more and therefore more profitable to repair them, but on any given day, Valvestate amps are much tougher to find.

                              From the listings I've seen I suspect the blown ones are caused by people connect extra speakers and overload the heads. The pots, jacks and switches aren't nearly as good as what you find in most tube amps of course. They are worse then any other SS amp being manufactured and even better then many of the low budget amps. You can do much worse when it comes to SS amps when it comes to tone and durability.
                              Obviously our experiences are very different. My V65R was in and out of the shop, due mainly to the circuit board's fragility, or maybe bad soldering, solder joints were the failures nearly every time. The amp apparently did not like being moved and bounced around in a car trunk...it was just too finicky for my workload. I was playing five nights a week, all over L.A. and Ventura counties, with three different bands back then, and after the fourth failure, I bought a Blues Junior and never looked back. I really liked the sound and weight of the V65R, but with the schedule I had to keep, it was not practical for me. I never ran an extension on it, and I had replaced the reverb tank [since repurposed] right before I retired it.

                              I will gladly send you the chassis, minus the tube [repurposed] if you will pay shipping and handling
                              "We are currently experiencing some technical difficulties due to reality fluctuations. The elves are working tirelessly to patch the correct version of reality. Activities here have been temporarily disabled since the fundamentals of mathematics, physics and reason may be incomprehensible during this indeterminate period of instability. Normal service will be restored once we are certain as to what 'normal' is."

                              Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally used up and worn out, shouting '...man, what a ride!'

                              "The greatness of a man is not in how much wealth he acquires, but in his integrity and his ability to affect those around him positively" ~Bob Marley

                              Solipsism is the new empiricism. -Alan Burdick

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by daddymack View Post

                                Marshall did this in the 90s with their ValveState amps...they sounded great but were unreliable for extensive gigging [don't ask how I know ].

                                I have to say that Quilter has somehow figured out how to get their amps to simulate tube clipping pretty darned well... I was a skeptic for years until I spent time with one...then I bought it!
                                Which specific Quilter amp? All of them? including the one with 6" speakers or what?
                                https://www.rakuten.com/r/CHICHI1336...edium=raf_link

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