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  • #46






    Quote Originally Posted by Gribs
    View Post

    This place is what we, the members, make of it. I try to make constructive posts and keep quiet if I don't know any answers or have nothing to say.




    Oh for goodness' sake. There you go again, being so.....so.....reasonable. And sensible.
    Maybe forgiveness is right where you fell...

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    • #47
      you guys sure do type a lot.

      Comment


      • #48






        Quote Originally Posted by zoink
        View Post

        As far as I can tell, nobody listens to the crap that 19 year olds make in their bedrooms with Fruity Loops. But the internet is still flooded with it.




        No, actually, people do listen to the "crap" that 19 year olds make in their bedroom. At least, I get the impression that a lot of those that start in more "street" oriented genres (drum and bass / dubstep, hip-hop) start out with mix tapes or tracks created on their computer. I'm sure many of them "network" too in that they are big fans of the scenes they are creating stuff for.



        Yes, the market is flooded. Everyone wants to be the Next Big Thing. Always has been.



        I dunno, what music are you considering "bad"? One thing about this forum is that it's a bit older, and I've noticed as people get older some people start dismissing anything new in music. There are people I know who dismiss all of today's indie rock as hipster bull****************, yet constantly post 80s and 90s alternative rock nostalgia on Facebook. I'm like, what's the difference, really? There's some, but it's not so much that all modern indie music sucks and the 1980s / 1990s was a glorious time in alternative music history.



        Likewise with electronic dance. What I've actually noticed is that, as the tools get more accessible and affordable, the production has become denser and slicker even for the kids with no experience. A lot of electronic dance in the rave era used to be very raw because everything was hardware (expensive) and you didn't have all those nice DAW conveniences. Both a good thing and a bad thing I suppose.



        Pop music for the teenage crowd in general has almost always had some section which was pretty democratic in that you really didn't need a huge amount of skills to play it.
        What I make with way too many blinky light modular items, plugins, and an Alesis Andromeda.
        Forbidden Star: home studio / melodic ambient / New Age / the deep zone
        Boney Fiend: the band, man / punk / garage / beer

        Comment


        • #49






          Quote Originally Posted by soundwave106
          View Post

          No, actually, people do listen to the "crap" that 19 year olds make in their bedroom. At least, I get the impression that a lot of those that start in more "street" oriented genres (drum and bass / dubstep, hip-hop) start out with mix tapes or tracks created on their computer. I'm sure many of them "network" too in that they are big fans of the scenes they are creating stuff for.




          Well, we'll just have to disagree on that one. I encounter a LOT of people who dabble in making electronic music that no one wants to hear. And in the case that someone does want to hear it, as you already mentioned, it's usually just to impress their friends with their ability to sound 'just like' someone famous.



          With the technology available today, it's no longer a great feat to do this. And musically -- at least to me -- it means nothing.











          Quote Originally Posted by soundwave106
          View Post

          I dunno, what music are you considering "bad"? One thing about this forum is that it's a bit older, and I've noticed as people get older some people start dismissing anything new in music.




          I'm not against "new" at all. I'm fine with new. New is another way of saying 'original.'



          But if you're the 500th copier of "new" then you're not original. At that point it's just a tired repetition. This is a problem with the whole process of technological democratization. For every original artist who makes good original music, you have 500 people who try to sound JUST LIKE the guy that had a recent hit. You might say this has always been true of rock and roll and other musical styles as well, but with rock at least you had to be able to PLAY a guitar to mimic someone famous. It was at least organic and crafted in that sense.



          In electronic music it's different. If all you care about is the end result, there are a LOT of ways to sidestep the whole musical skill obstacle.



          And interestingly, one thing that hip hop and teen pop have in common now is that they've co-opted many conventions of composition from electronic music. It would not be difficult to write and record 20 original 'Katy Perry songs' that Katy Perry never sang, and have 20 different teenage girls sing them. They could even sound "good" in the Katy Perry sense, which is to say, positively awful.
          Kronos, Fant.G8, PC3X, K2500RS, A6, Q, M3-61, Fant.X7, Motif 8, EX5(x2), V-Synth, K2000(x2), D50, JD800, JD990, JP8080, XP30, MC909, MC505, JX-10, JX-305, TR-707, Juno 1, DR-202, Radias, Triton Pro, Wavest. SR, EMX1, ESX1, ER-1, EA-1, R3, Poly 800, RS7000, FS1R (x2), RM1X, AN200, DX200, QY70, QY100, K5000S, OB-12, Maschine,ASR10,ASR88,ASR-X Pro, EPS,Virus B, Equinox,E-Mu XL-7,MiniAK, Synthstation,X-Station, XioSynth,TG33,Venom,V50,UltraNova,Z1,Spark,Moog LP Stage II, JP8000,Tetra,Supernova 2.

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          • #50






            Quote Originally Posted by droolmaster0
            View Post

            There has always been bad music. The great thing about the democratization that technology has brought is that people with talent, who formerly might not have had a chance to make their music public, can now do so.




            You're definitely right. And on its face, that's a really good thing. I've often said that this is a great time to be young and interested in music, since you can now do things with a medium priced laptop and affordable software that simply weren't possible 20 years ago with $100,000 worth of studio equipment.



            But the inevitable consequence is that you'll open the floodgates to many who just aren't musically talented and have no discipline to learn it as a ground-up endeavor. Yet they too want to 'make music,' since after all it's natural to want to emulate your idols.



            It's sort of like decreeing out of the blue that everybody can go to college. Well, it turns out that some people just aren't college material. If you're going to ignore this fact and let them in anyway, then inevitably you'll have to reduce or eliminate standards.
            Kronos, Fant.G8, PC3X, K2500RS, A6, Q, M3-61, Fant.X7, Motif 8, EX5(x2), V-Synth, K2000(x2), D50, JD800, JD990, JP8080, XP30, MC909, MC505, JX-10, JX-305, TR-707, Juno 1, DR-202, Radias, Triton Pro, Wavest. SR, EMX1, ESX1, ER-1, EA-1, R3, Poly 800, RS7000, FS1R (x2), RM1X, AN200, DX200, QY70, QY100, K5000S, OB-12, Maschine,ASR10,ASR88,ASR-X Pro, EPS,Virus B, Equinox,E-Mu XL-7,MiniAK, Synthstation,X-Station, XioSynth,TG33,Venom,V50,UltraNova,Z1,Spark,Moog LP Stage II, JP8000,Tetra,Supernova 2.

            Comment


            • #51






              Quote Originally Posted by zoink
              View Post

              Well, we'll just have to disagree on that one. I encounter a LOT of people who dabble in making electronic music that no one wants to hear. And in the case that someone does want to hear it, as you already mentioned, it's usually just to impress their friends with their ability to sound 'just like' someone famous.




              That's fine, and in other cases people make music that other people do want to hear. It may be only a few people, but who cares. Sometimes it grows larger. Anyways, I have no problem with hobbyists dabbling in music. That's 90%+ of music forums. Hell, that's myself to be honest, I'm in a rock band and also make nice New Age noodlings at home, it's not innovative, it's just something to do that can be fun at times.









              Quote Originally Posted by zoink
              View Post

              But if you're the 500th copier of "new" then you're not original. At that point it's just a tired repetition. This is a problem with the whole process of technological democratization. For every original artist who makes good original music, you have 500 people who try to sound JUST LIKE the guy that had a recent hit. You might say this has always been true of rock and roll and other musical styles as well, but with rock at least you had to be able to PLAY a guitar to mimic someone famous. It was at least organic and crafted in that sense.




              To play garage rock / 50s rock / punk rock, you only need to learn two chords: bar E and bar A, and then you have to learn to position them on a fretboard. Big whoop.



              For more skilled instrumental flourish, some of this still exists in other genres that are not pop. (Metal comes to mind. It's not Top 40 radio but metal's still a pretty big alternative subculture.)









              Quote Originally Posted by zoink
              View Post

              It would not be difficult to write and record 20 original 'Katy Perry songs' that Katy Perry never sang, and have 20 different teenage girls sing them. They could even sound "good" in the Katy Perry sense, which is to say, positively awful.




              The pop music industry is giving training wheels music for kids who don't know much about music. The music is secondary. Read Youtube comments sometime on pop vids, half of them are focusing less on the music and more on the tits and ass.



              Even though the music is kind of paint by numbers, it still takes a fair bit of work and time to get a production as good as a Katy Perry song.

              But of course, it's not that hugely *difficult* per se from an innovation / creativity perspective. Which is why production teams exist solely to get teenagers (and their parents) with stars in their eyes a chance to get on the Radio Disney teen pop craptrain.



              At least the people in their bedroom making drum and bass or dubstep or trance or dancehall or I don't know what in Fruity Loops are actually producing their own stuff, even if it's crap it's theirs.
              What I make with way too many blinky light modular items, plugins, and an Alesis Andromeda.
              Forbidden Star: home studio / melodic ambient / New Age / the deep zone
              Boney Fiend: the band, man / punk / garage / beer

              Comment


              • #52
                +1 for quality of the threads.

                +1 for the quality of THIS thread.



                The internet lets anyone share their music with everyone. Doesn't mean they ARE sharing it with everyone. If you read Facebook, most of the posts, while there for the whole world to see, aren't intended for the whole world - just the friends that care about that person. With music it's the same way. There may be six people who like my music or six hundred or even six million. The other six billion can ignore me. That's the "opt in" of open posting. Not everyone is trying to make it big (although I'm sure most hope to be discovered if only secretly) and those of us who came of age before web 2.0 have a hard time grasping that concept - to us, always being fed content specifically for consuption, it's hard to comprehend the idea that not everything is inteded for us. It's like going to a buffett for the first time when you've only been to regular restaurants - you end up piling everyting on your plate instead of picking something becuae you don't know how to pick through what's there for you.



                Gosh, here I go, being one of the long typers with preachy opinion that has nothing to do with making music. Guess I'm stalling from doing real work today.

                Comment


                • #53






                  Quote Originally Posted by soundwave106
                  View Post

                  That's fine, and in other cases people make music that other people do want to hear. It may be only a few people, but who cares. Sometimes it grows larger. Anyways, I have no problem with hobbyists dabbling in music. That's 90%+ of music forums. Hell, that's myself to be honest...




                  This. ^



                  Since being in a band wouldn't cover even half the living expenses I have, I had to give up being a "professional" (lol) musician in favor of having a decent "grown up" job that does pay the bills. I have a small project studio in my home, and it's fun being able to go in there and noodle sometimes and maybe record some stuff. I couldn't care less who doesn't like what I do (mostly covers as of late, the inspiration for original music just isn't there), but that's because it's not for them, it's for me. That's what a hobby is, basically. But I tend to enjoy sharing my musical endeavors with my friends and even you guys here in the forum from time to time. The fact that everything is so accessible now just makes it easier to do that.
                  A dead astronaut in space...

                  Comment


                  • #54






                    Quote Originally Posted by soundwave106
                    View Post

                    To play garage rock / 50s rock / punk rock, you only need to learn two chords: bar E and bar A, and then you have to learn to position them on a fretboard. Big whoop.






                    You oversimplify. Even playing E and A chords on a guitar entails some skill with an actual instrument. You at least have to recreate what the original artist did on a note and chord level. This is worlds away from sampling it and running it through a sample mangling algorithm. The results might still be "original," but how much skill did it take to get that result?



                    Also, most 50s rock and garage rock utilize something more like 3 or 4 chords. For 50s rock, it'll be I-IV-V for blues adapted rock and roll, and I-vi-IV-V7-I for lots of other stuff (the ubiquitous and sappy "Last Kiss" progression).



                    Meanwhile, the would-be "electronic musician" that I'm describing doesn't even necessarily deal in notes or chords. The "note" might not even be his element of composition. He would instead pull up sampled phrases of others' music and drop them into software, or sequence an endless insipid bass line over a 4-on-the-floor beat and call it a finished piece.



                    And that's fine. If he enjoys doing it, then that's all the reason he needs. But it is what it is. It's not necessarily original, interesting, or difficult to do.



                    The most compelling evidence of what I'm describing has been meeting people who are selling off hardware synths and workstations.



                    Most of the used gear that I own was purchased from exactly the people I'm describing. As I'm standing there checking it out, they confess openly that they bought the synth thinking it would be "a lot easier to use than it actually was." A lot of them say they're "moving into software instead." They still want to "make music" -- they just don't want to learn any music theory, or learn how to play an instrument. Sometimes in 5 minutes I figure out more of what their synth can do than they did in 2 years of owning it.



                    I'm not indicting the genre at all. I like electronic music a lot. All I'm really advocating is that people who want to make "electronic music" acquire some basic theory and keyboarding skills. And for those who want to take a timbral approach, learn something about the physics of sound. Undertake it as a discipline -- not as a quest for the right software that does it all for you.
                    Kronos, Fant.G8, PC3X, K2500RS, A6, Q, M3-61, Fant.X7, Motif 8, EX5(x2), V-Synth, K2000(x2), D50, JD800, JD990, JP8080, XP30, MC909, MC505, JX-10, JX-305, TR-707, Juno 1, DR-202, Radias, Triton Pro, Wavest. SR, EMX1, ESX1, ER-1, EA-1, R3, Poly 800, RS7000, FS1R (x2), RM1X, AN200, DX200, QY70, QY100, K5000S, OB-12, Maschine,ASR10,ASR88,ASR-X Pro, EPS,Virus B, Equinox,E-Mu XL-7,MiniAK, Synthstation,X-Station, XioSynth,TG33,Venom,V50,UltraNova,Z1,Spark,Moog LP Stage II, JP8000,Tetra,Supernova 2.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Zoink,



                      I understand what is coming across as frustration. But, imo, good music doesn't necessarily have to be "complicated" or take any real modicum of talent or skill. Some of my absolute FAVORITE songs are really, really simple, musically.



                      Sounds like you're pissed because of the current state of allegedly talentless superstars that dominate the popular Top 40 charts and the seemingly endless supply of fanboys and girls that just can't get enough. I understand how you feel and can commiserate to a degree, because I consider myself a decently proficient musician and I'm not even making money in the music biz, much less anywhere close to being a known musician at all.
                      A dead astronaut in space...

                      Comment


                      • #56






                        Quote Originally Posted by selfinflikted
                        View Post

                        Zoink,



                        I understand what is coming across as frustration. But, imo, good music doesn't necessarily have to be "complicated" or take any real modicum of talent or skill. Some of my absolute FAVORITE songs are really, really simple, musically.



                        Sounds like you're pissed because of the current state of allegedly talentless superstars that dominate the popular Top 40 charts and the seemingly endless supply of fanboys and girls that just can't get enough. I understand how you feel and can commiserate to a degree, because I consider myself a decently proficient musician and I'm not even making money in the music biz, much less anywhere close to being a known musician at all.




                        I appreciate your comments.



                        No, I'm not frustrated or "pissed" about anything. Disillusioned, maybe. I'm just making observations on what I've seen, based on another person's statement of disillusionment about electronic music. I can relate to this. It's unfortunate that written text doesn't really convey tone. To me it's just a friendly, but frank, conversation.



                        I too have noticed a dumbing down trend as the field has opened up, thanks to technological automation, into something that "anybody" can do.
                        Kronos, Fant.G8, PC3X, K2500RS, A6, Q, M3-61, Fant.X7, Motif 8, EX5(x2), V-Synth, K2000(x2), D50, JD800, JD990, JP8080, XP30, MC909, MC505, JX-10, JX-305, TR-707, Juno 1, DR-202, Radias, Triton Pro, Wavest. SR, EMX1, ESX1, ER-1, EA-1, R3, Poly 800, RS7000, FS1R (x2), RM1X, AN200, DX200, QY70, QY100, K5000S, OB-12, Maschine,ASR10,ASR88,ASR-X Pro, EPS,Virus B, Equinox,E-Mu XL-7,MiniAK, Synthstation,X-Station, XioSynth,TG33,Venom,V50,UltraNova,Z1,Spark,Moog LP Stage II, JP8000,Tetra,Supernova 2.

                        Comment


                        • #57






                          Quote Originally Posted by zoink
                          View Post

                          I appreciate your comments.



                          No, I'm not frustrated or "pissed" about anything. Disillusioned, maybe. I'm just making observations on what I've seen, based on another person's statement of disillusionment about electronic music. I can relate to this. It's unfortunate that written text doesn't really convey tone. To me it's just a friendly, but frank, conversation.



                          I too have noticed a dumbing down trend as the field has opened up, thanks to technological automation, into something that "anybody" can do.




                          Well, I'm probably more "pissed" than you then :P I like watching shows like American Idol and the X-Factor. There are some supremely talented people trying to "make it" and then you have a panel of judges like on X-Factor that include people like Brittney Spears and Demi Lovato (who I've never heard of). Anyway, you have these people on stage, who like I said, are extremely talented in one way or another - be it in singing or dancing or whatev - and judges like Brittney Spears who have never actually sung live in front of an audience, ever, that get to decide the fate of these people who are actually talented... The talentless judging the talented. It tickles me on the one hand, and pisses me off on the other.



                          In fact, I'm pretty sure that most of the top 40 "artists" either lipsync or sing through so many effects and processing (read: Autotune) that they may as well not even be singing. I'm sure there are a few exceptions, but I long for the days before all this masquerading when you had artists like Paula Abdul (yes, I'm a fan, sue me) who actually sang live WHILE dancing and were able to not pass out from lack of oxygen. You could go to a concert and the band/artists sounded good - like they did on their studio recordings. But now, when you see a band live, they almost ALWAYS sound nothing like their recordings. But hell, it is what it is nowadays, and really the only thing I can do it not patronize these talentLESS people.



                          /rant
                          A dead astronaut in space...

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                          • #58
                            To add insult to injury....

                            My Mac computer won't let me log into this forum today- got a message that this site was corrupted.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Probably due to me posting
                              A dead astronaut in space...

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Firefox is telling me this is flagged as an attack site!
                                Originally Posted by Metrosonus


                                working in a library I wish women would just come right out and say "where do you keep your soft core / torture porn at?"









                                Originally Posted by swardle


                                Well, I've never seen such filth in my entire life. Disgustation!!!



                                That's called pain. Get used to it.

                                Comment













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