Members soundwave106 Posted October 2, 2012 Members Share Posted October 2, 2012 Originally Posted by zoink Well, we'll just have to disagree on that one. I encounter a LOT of people who dabble in making electronic music that no one wants to hear. And in the case that someone does want to hear it, as you already mentioned, it's usually just to impress their friends with their ability to sound 'just like' someone famous. That's fine, and in other cases people make music that other people do want to hear. It may be only a few people, but who cares. Sometimes it grows larger. Anyways, I have no problem with hobbyists dabbling in music. That's 90%+ of music forums. Hell, that's myself to be honest, I'm in a rock band and also make nice New Age noodlings at home, it's not innovative, it's just something to do that can be fun at times. Originally Posted by zoink But if you're the 500th copier of "new" then you're not original. At that point it's just a tired repetition. This is a problem with the whole process of technological democratization. For every original artist who makes good original music, you have 500 people who try to sound JUST LIKE the guy that had a recent hit. You might say this has always been true of rock and roll and other musical styles as well, but with rock at least you had to be able to PLAY a guitar to mimic someone famous. It was at least organic and crafted in that sense. To play garage rock / 50s rock / punk rock, you only need to learn two chords: bar E and bar A, and then you have to learn to position them on a fretboard. Big whoop.For more skilled instrumental flourish, some of this still exists in other genres that are not pop. (Metal comes to mind. It's not Top 40 radio but metal's still a pretty big alternative subculture.) Originally Posted by zoink It would not be difficult to write and record 20 original 'Katy Perry songs' that Katy Perry never sang, and have 20 different teenage girls sing them. They could even sound "good" in the Katy Perry sense, which is to say, positively awful. The pop music industry is giving training wheels music for kids who don't know much about music. The music is secondary. Read Youtube comments sometime on pop vids, half of them are focusing less on the music and more on the tits and ass.Even though the music is kind of paint by numbers, it still takes a fair bit of work and time to get a production as good as a Katy Perry song. But of course, it's not that hugely *difficult* per se from an innovation / creativity perspective. Which is why production teams exist solely to get teenagers (and their parents) with stars in their eyes a chance to get on the Radio Disney teen pop craptrain. At least the people in their bedroom making drum and bass or dubstep or trance or dancehall or I don't know what in Fruity Loops are actually producing their own stuff, even if it's crap it's theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mega Jon Posted October 2, 2012 Members Share Posted October 2, 2012 +1 for quality of the threads. +1 for the quality of THIS thread. The internet lets anyone share their music with everyone. Doesn't mean they ARE sharing it with everyone. If you read Facebook, most of the posts, while there for the whole world to see, aren't intended for the whole world - just the friends that care about that person. With music it's the same way. There may be six people who like my music or six hundred or even six million. The other six billion can ignore me. That's the "opt in" of open posting. Not everyone is trying to make it big (although I'm sure most hope to be discovered if only secretly) and those of us who came of age before web 2.0 have a hard time grasping that concept - to us, always being fed content specifically for consuption, it's hard to comprehend the idea that not everything is inteded for us. It's like going to a buffett for the first time when you've only been to regular restaurants - you end up piling everyting on your plate instead of picking something becuae you don't know how to pick through what's there for you. Gosh, here I go, being one of the long typers with preachy opinion that has nothing to do with making music. Guess I'm stalling from doing real work today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members selfinflikted Posted October 2, 2012 Members Share Posted October 2, 2012 Originally Posted by soundwave106 That's fine, and in other cases people make music that other people do want to hear. It may be only a few people, but who cares. Sometimes it grows larger. Anyways, I have no problem with hobbyists dabbling in music. That's 90%+ of music forums. Hell, that's myself to be honest... This. ^Since being in a band wouldn't cover even half the living expenses I have, I had to give up being a "professional" (lol) musician in favor of having a decent "grown up" job that does pay the bills. I have a small project studio in my home, and it's fun being able to go in there and noodle sometimes and maybe record some stuff. I couldn't care less who doesn't like what I do (mostly covers as of late, the inspiration for original music just isn't there), but that's because it's not for them, it's for me. That's what a hobby is, basically. But I tend to enjoy sharing my musical endeavors with my friends and even you guys here in the forum from time to time. The fact that everything is so accessible now just makes it easier to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members zoink Posted October 2, 2012 Members Share Posted October 2, 2012 Originally Posted by soundwave106 To play garage rock / 50s rock / punk rock, you only need to learn two chords: bar E and bar A, and then you have to learn to position them on a fretboard. Big whoop. You oversimplify. Even playing E and A chords on a guitar entails some skill with an actual instrument. You at least have to recreate what the original artist did on a note and chord level. This is worlds away from sampling it and running it through a sample mangling algorithm. The results might still be "original," but how much skill did it take to get that result? Also, most 50s rock and garage rock utilize something more like 3 or 4 chords. For 50s rock, it'll be I-IV-V for blues adapted rock and roll, and I-vi-IV-V7-I for lots of other stuff (the ubiquitous and sappy "Last Kiss" progression).Meanwhile, the would-be "electronic musician" that I'm describing doesn't even necessarily deal in notes or chords. The "note" might not even be his element of composition. He would instead pull up sampled phrases of others' music and drop them into software, or sequence an endless insipid bass line over a 4-on-the-floor beat and call it a finished piece. And that's fine. If he enjoys doing it, then that's all the reason he needs. But it is what it is. It's not necessarily original, interesting, or difficult to do.The most compelling evidence of what I'm describing has been meeting people who are selling off hardware synths and workstations. Most of the used gear that I own was purchased from exactly the people I'm describing. As I'm standing there checking it out, they confess openly that they bought the synth thinking it would be "a lot easier to use than it actually was." A lot of them say they're "moving into software instead." They still want to "make music" -- they just don't want to learn any music theory, or learn how to play an instrument. Sometimes in 5 minutes I figure out more of what their synth can do than they did in 2 years of owning it.I'm not indicting the genre at all. I like electronic music a lot. All I'm really advocating is that people who want to make "electronic music" acquire some basic theory and keyboarding skills. And for those who want to take a timbral approach, learn something about the physics of sound. Undertake it as a discipline -- not as a quest for the right software that does it all for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members selfinflikted Posted October 2, 2012 Members Share Posted October 2, 2012 Zoink, I understand what is coming across as frustration. But, imo, good music doesn't necessarily have to be "complicated" or take any real modicum of talent or skill. Some of my absolute FAVORITE songs are really, really simple, musically. Sounds like you're pissed because of the current state of allegedly talentless superstars that dominate the popular Top 40 charts and the seemingly endless supply of fanboys and girls that just can't get enough. I understand how you feel and can commiserate to a degree, because I consider myself a decently proficient musician and I'm not even making money in the music biz, much less anywhere close to being a known musician at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members zoink Posted October 2, 2012 Members Share Posted October 2, 2012 Originally Posted by selfinflikted Zoink,I understand what is coming across as frustration. But, imo, good music doesn't necessarily have to be "complicated" or take any real modicum of talent or skill. Some of my absolute FAVORITE songs are really, really simple, musically. Sounds like you're pissed because of the current state of allegedly talentless superstars that dominate the popular Top 40 charts and the seemingly endless supply of fanboys and girls that just can't get enough. I understand how you feel and can commiserate to a degree, because I consider myself a decently proficient musician and I'm not even making money in the music biz, much less anywhere close to being a known musician at all. I appreciate your comments. No, I'm not frustrated or "pissed" about anything. Disillusioned, maybe. I'm just making observations on what I've seen, based on another person's statement of disillusionment about electronic music. I can relate to this. It's unfortunate that written text doesn't really convey tone. To me it's just a friendly, but frank, conversation.I too have noticed a dumbing down trend as the field has opened up, thanks to technological automation, into something that "anybody" can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members selfinflikted Posted October 2, 2012 Members Share Posted October 2, 2012 Originally Posted by zoink I appreciate your comments. No, I'm not frustrated or "pissed" about anything. Disillusioned, maybe. I'm just making observations on what I've seen, based on another person's statement of disillusionment about electronic music. I can relate to this. It's unfortunate that written text doesn't really convey tone. To me it's just a friendly, but frank, conversation.I too have noticed a dumbing down trend as the field has opened up, thanks to technological automation, into something that "anybody" can do. Well, I'm probably more "pissed" than you then I like watching shows like American Idol and the X-Factor. There are some supremely talented people trying to "make it" and then you have a panel of judges like on X-Factor that include people like Brittney Spears and Demi Lovato (who I've never heard of). Anyway, you have these people on stage, who like I said, are extremely talented in one way or another - be it in singing or dancing or whatev - and judges like Brittney Spears who have never actually sung live in front of an audience, ever, that get to decide the fate of these people who are actually talented... The talentless judging the talented. It tickles me on the one hand, and pisses me off on the other.In fact, I'm pretty sure that most of the top 40 "artists" either lipsync or sing through so many effects and processing (read: Autotune) that they may as well not even be singing. I'm sure there are a few exceptions, but I long for the days before all this masquerading when you had artists like Paula Abdul (yes, I'm a fan, sue me) who actually sang live WHILE dancing and were able to not pass out from lack of oxygen. You could go to a concert and the band/artists sounded good - like they did on their studio recordings. But now, when you see a band live, they almost ALWAYS sound nothing like their recordings. But hell, it is what it is nowadays, and really the only thing I can do it not patronize these talentLESS people./rant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members piano39 Posted October 2, 2012 Members Share Posted October 2, 2012 To add insult to injury.... My Mac computer won't let me log into this forum today- got a message that this site was corrupted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members selfinflikted Posted October 2, 2012 Members Share Posted October 2, 2012 Probably due to me posting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Purity_Control Posted October 2, 2012 Members Share Posted October 2, 2012 Firefox is telling me this is flagged as an attack site! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Purity_Control Posted October 2, 2012 Members Share Posted October 2, 2012 Maybe it detected traces of ontological terrorism... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members donaldcrunk Posted October 2, 2012 Members Share Posted October 2, 2012 same here, 'malware detected' on a mac running Chrome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gribs Posted October 2, 2012 Members Share Posted October 2, 2012 Originally Posted by Purity_Control Firefox is telling me this is flagged as an attack site! Yeah it told me that too. Perhaps a worm got into the server.This thread took off in an interesting direction too.The latest electronic music thing that has made my eyebrows scrunch up is the tide of commercial sample libraries. The new "label" is the company that commercializes sample sets and many of those, though sized as if they would be released on CD, are for sale as download only. At some point in time I chose to follow Native Instruments as a developer on KVR, and now with the occasional news bites of interest I receive two or three announcements for newly released sample libraries for Kontakt per day.Oh well, I am one of those hobbyist hacks who started out as a pretty good guitar player and started farting around making stupid noises with synthesizers and drum machines - mostly just for myself - and then started taking piano lessons now and then. I have no illusions of doing something great - just making noises and having fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members selfinflikted Posted October 2, 2012 Members Share Posted October 2, 2012 Originally Posted by Gribs Oh well, I am one of those hobbyist hacks who started out as a pretty good guitar player and started farting around making stupid noises with synthesizers and drum machines - mostly just for myself - and then started taking piano lessons now and then. I have no illusions of doing something great - just making noises and having fun. Ditto! It's all about the fun factor for me as well. :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members droolmaster0 Posted October 2, 2012 Members Share Posted October 2, 2012 Some of the best music comes from people who haven't learned it in traditional ways. Originally Posted by zoink You're definitely right. And on its face, that's a really good thing. I've often said that this is a great time to be young and interested in music, since you can now do things with a medium priced laptop and affordable software that simply weren't possible 20 years ago with $100,000 worth of studio equipment.But the inevitable consequence is that you'll open the floodgates to many who just aren't musically talented and have no discipline to learn it as a ground-up endeavor. Yet they too want to 'make music,' since after all it's natural to want to emulate your idols.It's sort of like decreeing out of the blue that everybody can go to college. Well, it turns out that some people just aren't college material. If you're going to ignore this fact and let them in anyway, then inevitably you'll have to reduce or eliminate standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members droolmaster0 Posted October 2, 2012 Members Share Posted October 2, 2012 Originally Posted by Purity_Control Maybe it detected traces of ontological terrorism... Let it be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Synthaholic Posted October 3, 2012 Members Share Posted October 3, 2012 Originally Posted by piano39 To add insult to injury....My Mac computer won't let me log into this forum today- got a message that this site was corrupted. Firefox wouldn't let me connect, warning that the site wasn't safe. But Opera didn't have a problem.Using the Google machine to type acapella.harmony-central.com returns this warning, on both browsers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members zoink Posted October 3, 2012 Members Share Posted October 3, 2012 Originally Posted by droolmaster0 Some of the best music comes from people who haven't learned it in traditional ways. Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted October 3, 2012 Members Share Posted October 3, 2012 Originally Posted by NoRomoFan The liberal infested political forums with daily ra ra chants for their chosen one doesn't help. That alone has made many of the conservative minded stay away. Of course that's probably the intent. Actually, the intent is to keep the ra-ra political threads (both conservative and liberal) OUT of forums like this!! So far, so good. If people don't want to visit a keyboard forum because of what happens in a political forum, that decision really doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. To each his own, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AnalogGuy Posted October 3, 2012 Members Share Posted October 3, 2012 And... guess what? For top of it all, Google chrome claims that this site could be potentially dangerous and each time I click the link for this forum, it always reports about that this site contains malware!When it comes to lost members, this will be the last nail for the coffin, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gribs Posted October 3, 2012 Members Share Posted October 3, 2012 Originally Posted by Anderton Actually, the intent is to keep the ra-ra political threads (both conservative and liberal) OUT of forums like this!! So far, so good. : Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Metrosonus Posted October 3, 2012 Members Share Posted October 3, 2012 no complaints on that one either. I think most of the regulars here are niche within a niche and that's fine by me. We're mostly objective people paying the bills, getting stuff done around the house, spending time with our kids etc. and stopping in here to keep in touch, laugh a little, and to keep some old friendships alive. I don't see anything wrong with that. It may have "old man" stink all over it, but the other side of the coin is unending "I"m a guitarist and is the microkorg right for me?" questions or "I have a 486DX with Waves and fruity Loops and I can't sound like Jay Z can you help me?" or non stop bickering between the usual parties. We've made a lot of positive progress and I'm not really going to waggle my fist at it.. if anything, we can only hope that we'll attract more like minded folks eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Synthaholic Posted October 3, 2012 Members Share Posted October 3, 2012 Originally Posted by Anderton Actually, the intent is to keep the ra-ra political threads (both conservative and liberal) OUT of forums like this!! So far, so good. If people don't want to visit a keyboard forum because of what happens in a political forum, that decision really doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. To each his own, I guess. Korg vs. Roland vs. Yamaha vs. Kurzweil is political enough!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Real MC Posted October 3, 2012 Members Share Posted October 3, 2012 I left because Musicians Friend ruined Harmony Central When Musicians Friend sells Harmony Central and the original website with all its useful tools are restored, then some of us may come back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Caligvla Posted October 3, 2012 Members Share Posted October 3, 2012 Originally Posted by droolmaster0 It's really a very conservative forum now. This ... Frankly boring personalities set the tone here these days even more so than the out-sized ones did during the chaotic "good ole' days," when a creative spirit and a mix of the informative, inflammatory and infamous commingled over their daily bread of keys, synths and samplers ...Now ... Nothing surprises, excites or inflames anyone or anything here anymore ... And as many of the frequent recent posters would assert, that's how they like it ... Well, enjoy your dying forum ... And then this ...I can't think of any other forum I've been a part of that's experienced more technical problems than this one ... Everytime a prolonged outage occurred, it was like an increasingly feeble man contracting pneumonia ...I quoted Droolmaster earlier because I can't really think of a better demarcation between the end of "then" and the beginning of "now" other than the "Droolmaster banned/re-instated" imbroglio ... KSS went into it one way, and came out of it quite another ... I'm not placing blame at the feet of any specific party(ies) but something shifted after that ... Instead of resolving differences quickly, like friends do, it was slow, painful and grotesque like being ripped apart on a medieval stretcher ...This is the body of KSS now ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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