Someday I may become an American.

[Ernest Buckley]

Some day I may become a Canadian.

:poke:

[blue2blue]

I don't fault anyone for wanting to think long and hard before giving up their home citizenship or starting the citizenship process in a new land -- even if they are longtime expatriates.

 

Citizenship is -- or should be -- a solemn responsibility.

 

Way too many native born citizens don't give it a second thought.

 

Me, I've got a lot more respect for hard-working, tax-paying resident aliens who contribute to their adopted communities than I do for a lot of native born citizens I've known who take the benefits of being an American, a wide range of personal freedoms, a decent public education, the opportunity for a good job, a relatively safe community but give little back over the legal minimum.

[franknputer]

Dude, I don't know how you can start a thread to "...express(ed) my frustration regarding how people can classified others based on ethnicity." and then progress to "pay my taxes...so drug dealers and pimps can live on welfare".

 

Examine that contradiction for a moment, and perhaps you'll gain some understanding why some people can't seem to overcome their belief in these stereotypes.

[freetime]

I'd like to express my opinion but I don't want to get banned again.

 

STFU and take it up with your local immigration office

[audioicon]

Dude, I don't know how you can start a thread to "...express(ed) my frustration regarding how people can classified others based on ethnicity." and then progress to "pay my taxes...so drug dealers and pimps can live on welfare". Examine that contradiction for a moment, and perhaps you'll gain some understanding why some people can't seem to overcome their belief in these stereotypes.

 

You remind me of the people who rate the movies, like the movie critics.

No matter the how the movie was put together, people will have their own views about it.

 

Threads are virtual conversations, sometimes they are not sequential.

 

But I respect your views.

 

Apparently nothing I have said appeared to matter to you when it comes to the actual subject but rather to dissect and scrutinized what I'm saying.

 

Well, you are entitled to your views and opinion just as I am.

 

AI

[the stranger]

Still... voting drunk can be dangerous...

 

We'd have to get better results than what we're getting now.

[the stranger]

Dude, I don't know how you can start a thread to "...express(ed) my frustration regarding how people can classified others based on ethnicity." and then progress to "pay my taxes...so drug dealers and pimps can live on welfare". Examine that contradiction for a moment, and perhaps you'll gain some understanding why some people can't seem to overcome their belief in these stereotypes.

 

 

I see the point here, but the drug dealers and pimps in my general area don't really follow any color scheme, but the phrase "drug dealers and pimps" is most likely going to bring up images of a black man in most people's minds, so....another interesting observation and one I'm surprised I missed.

 

Of course, the statement brings into my mind crackheads, which seem to be all colors, so excuse me for letting my stereotypes equate drug dealers, pimps, and crackheads.

[BlueStrat]

To answer your original post, surely you can understand why some Americans get the heebie jeebies from people with Arab descent? I mean, had the 9-11 guys been not been Arabs it would probably not be as blatant as it is. But the fact is, when you read the paper or watch the news and you see car bombs, suicide bombers,, etc etc it is more often than not being done by Arab males between the age of 18 ands 40. It's only being done by a tiny fraction of them but that's enough to put the fear of God (Allah?) into the majority of people (which is sort of the intent of terrorism to begin with isn't it? )

 

I'm not saying it's right or fair, I'm saying it just is.

 

I live in North Idaho. Back in the 80s we had a nest of white supremist/skinheads here who bombed the courthouse and attacked people of color at random and who had a compund out in the sticks where they'd hold aryan 'conferences'. As you can imagine, the media was all over it, and cast every person who lived within 200 miles of here as a racist. It didn't help that guys likme Timothy McVeigh and Randy Weaver were tied in with them in backdoor relationships. It was a mess and took a long time to overcome the stigma of being from here (it still isn't gone- I have black friends in Portland who are afraid to come here because they think there's nazi behind every tree) even though the nazis lost their compound their leader is gone, and the whole thing has been over with for over 10 years. It's just going to take some time.

 

As far as taxation without representation goes, you are taxed on what you use (ostensibly). And if you aren't a citizen, you are a guest in this country. The fact that you pay taxes is tied to the fact that you benefit from living here. You are free to get representation by becoming a citizen. It is this way in any country in the world.

 

We went through this when I married a Canadian who became a citizen. We got an immigration lawyer and the whole thing was a done deal in less than a year.

[slight-return]

 

Anyway, the drive of this thread was to expressed my frustration regarding how people can classified others based on ethnicity.

 

 

I think that's where some of the confusion may be coming from. The topic post started with voting status of non-citizens (as opposed to ethnic prejudices) so that's where people went.

 

I think it's a common problem (I can certainly do it - I speak as one of the damned); not crafting a good solid topic sentence in place. Maybe we fear it's "too basic" a writing style...topic sentence, supporting points, summary, conclusion -- but like so much, without strong fundamentals the flashier stuff like oblique entrees or rhetorical questions can kind of derez.

[eeglug]

 

We went through this when I married a Canadian who became a citizen. We got an immigration lawyer and the whole thing was a done deal in less than a year.

 

 

It's different and obviously faster when you acquire citizenship by marrying an American citizen. I'm not complaining - but the fact is that for some it's not as easy as flipping a switch.

[slight-return]

You remind me of the people who rate the movies, like the movie critics. No matter the how the movie was put together, people will have their own views about it. Threads are virtual conversations, sometimes they are not sequential. But I respect your views. Apparently nothing I have said appeared to matter to you when it comes to the actual subject but rather to dissect and scrutinized what I'm saying. Well, you are entitled to your views and opinion just as I am. AI

 

 

I found Franks comments to be quite appropriate* (though the topic itself is a bit weakly defined).

 

Because conversation can be non-sequential (a good reason for strong topic sentence right up front), the bringing together of concepts from two different posts

is a valuable tool...as the sequence, or lack of it, doesn't necessarily help and can even hide connections.

 

I found Frank's comment germane to the topic (as he saw it and called out with a quote) and had a very interesting point about prejudices and how we can be blind to our own.

 

 

 

[*Though I do think the emoticon is the worst thing to happen to the forums in a while. I think it's inherently rude and belittling]

[bbach]

Some day I may become a Canadian. :poke:

 

 

I have some buddies in the oil/gas bussiness in Alberta. Want to join me there? We could open a tourist trap in Banff and really scalp all the US visitors by making them pay way too much for everything we sell because Banff is a gorgeous place to visit.

[UstadKhanAli]

Patrick,

 

Someone sent me this by email, and I thought you'd be interested in reading it. Please note that while I generally agree with the gist of the article, I don't know whether all these "reverse comparisons" are accurate.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

What if things were switched around? Would the country's collective point of view be different? Ponder the following: What if Obama had paraded five children across the stage, including a three month old infant and an unwed, pregnant teenage daughter? What if McCain was a former president of the Harvard Law Review? What if Obama finished fifth from the bottom of his graduating class? What if McCain had only married once, and Obama was a divorcee? What if Obama was the candidate who left his first wife after a severe disfiguring car accident, when she no longer measured up to his standards? What if Obama had met his second wife in a bar and had a long affair while he was still married? What if Michelle Obama was the wife who not only became addicted to pain killers but also acquired them illegally through her charitable organization? What if Cindy McCain graduated from Harvard? What if Obama had been a member of the Keating Five? (The Keating Five were five United States Senators accused of corruption in 1989, igniting a major political scandal as part of the larger Savings and Loan crisis of the late 1980s and early 1990s.) What if McCain was a charismatic, eloquent speaker? What if Obama couldn't read from a teleprompter? What if Obama was the one who had military experience that included discipline problems and a record of crashing seven planes? What if Obama was the one who was known to display publicly, on many occasions, a serious anger management problem? What if Michelle Obama's family had made their money from beer distribution? What if the Obamas had adopted a white child? If these questions reflected reality, do you really believe the election numbers would be as close as they are? This is what racism does. It covers up, rationalizes and minimizes positive qualities in one candidate and emphasizes negative qualities in another when there is a color difference. Educational Background: Barack Obama: Columbia University - B.A. Political Science with a Specialization in International Relations. Harvard - Juris Doctor (J.D.) Magna Cum Laude Joseph Biden: University of Delaware - B.A. in History and B.A. in Political Science. Syracuse University College of Law - Juris Doctor (J.D.) vs. John McCain: United States Naval Academy - Class rank: 894 of 899 Sarah Palin: Hawaii Pacific University - 1 semester North Idaho College - 2 semesters - general study University of Idaho - 2 semesters - journalism Matanuska-Susitna College - 1 semester University of Idaho - 3 semesters - B.A. in Journalism Education isn't everything, but this is about the two highest offices in the land as well as our standing in the world. You make the call.

 

[amplayer]

 

In response to amplayer: I understand your viewpoint, but is it fair to pay taxes if they can't vote? I think not.

 

 

Yes, it is fair to pay taxes without representation because they are not citizens. In any case, much of these taxes go to programs that benefit the resident aliens anyways. True, many go to pork barrel projects like Obama's 3 million dollar projector for Chicago, but most of the taxes are for things like roads, police, fire protection, military, etc.

[UstadKhanAli]

Here's arguments for and against from the Gotham Gazette http://www.gothamgazette.com/article/feature-commentary/20030825/202/503:

 

ARGUMENT FOR NON-CITIZEN VOTING

 

Proponents of non-citizen voting rights argue that immigrants share many of the same responsibilities of citizens and should be given the right to vote. Immigrants pay taxes, send their children to public schools, and can even serve in the U.S. military. Nationally, 37,000 members of the active-duty military - nearly three percent - are non-citizens.

 

"Taxes are being withheld from [non-citizen] salaries to support city services," said Margaret Fung of the Asian American Legal Defense Fund.

 

Local government would be more representative of the city, advocates claim, if a million non-citizen New Yorkers could elect their representatives. It was not until 2001 when term limits kicked out many long time incumbents in New York City, that the first Asian American was elected to office, even though Asians comprise 10 percent of the city's population.

 

It can also often take a decade or more for legal residents to be granted citizenship because of a cumbersome naturalization process.

 

"Most immigrants want to become citizens," said Borough of Manhattan Community College Professor Ronald Hayduk, who has written extensively on the subject of citizenship and voting rights. "It's just that it takes forever."

 

Another argument is that the notion of citizenship has been fluid throughout U.S. history.

 

"For a long time the whole process of becoming a citizen was in local hands and had much less bureaucracy than it does now," said John Mollenkopf, director of the Center for Urban Research at the City University of New York. "A local judge could declare you a citizen if you'd lived here for five years and kept yourself out of police trouble."

 

Other areas of the country, such as Takoma Park, Maryland and Cambridge, Massachusetts, have already passed measures allowing non-citizens to vote.

 

ARGUMENT AGAINST NON-CITIZEN VOTING

 

Opponents argue that immigrants already have a way to vote - by becoming a citizen.

 

To become a legal U.S. citizen, a person has to be a legal permanent resident for at least five years. He or she must also be able to speak, read, and write in English, and demonstrate an understanding of U.S. history and government.

 

These things are essential, say opponents of extending voting rights, to understanding and participating in the democratic process. "There are certain rights and privileges that come with being a U.S. citizen - and the right to vote is central," said Republican City Councilmember James Oddo.

 

If voting rights were offered to those who have not taken the time or effort to earn citizenship, it would undermine the significance of voting and what it means to be an American.

 

"People who are here for three years or five years and who are given the right to vote would have little incentive to go through with the naturalization process," said Stanley Renshon, a professor at the Graduate Center of the City University of New York, who has authored a book entitled "The 50 Percent American: National Identity in a Dangerous Age."

 

Renshon also rejects the notion that non-citizens are not benefiting from paying taxes. "The idea that they pay taxes but are getting nothing for it is an absurd affront," he said. "Obviously there are benefits in coming to this country and that is why people do it."

 

Some opponents acknowledge that while the citizenship process is imperfect, giving people the right to vote is not part of the solution.

 

And there are efforts to speed up the process of becoming a citizen for military personnel, who have demonstrated their commitment to the country. Spurred by the deaths of 10 immigrant soldiers like Riayan Tejeda, Congress recently passed a bill to reduce the time from three years to one year that an immigrant member of the military must wait to become a U.S. citizen.

[UstadKhanAli]

Ha! I just realized something. I was just reading one of the other threads, and it turns out that Craig had posted that very same thing - "What if things were switched around? Would the country's collective point of view be different?" - from an email he got a few hours earlier!!! Funny!

[Etienne Rambert]

 

First of all I shall not hold anything against the moderator if this post is some how inappropriate for this forum and becomes blocked or deleted. Being a US Resident, I'm not allowed to vote. I pay taxes as all other American, I have given this country as much as it has given me. I could care less about the American politics. Who wins who doesn't is none of my problems since I cannot be apart of it. With this said, I'm just moved as to how people talk about immigrants, and colors, and ethnicity. So are Arab Americans, less Americans? Someday I may become an American, after years of paying taxes and not living on welfare, and volunteering. Will I be able to be apart of this great country without people questioning who I am? It is just disturbing. Well, I could play the guitar and record music or maybe stick my head in a speaker cone and pretend all of this doesn't exist. But in the end I'm only human and it hurts to know that your next door neighbor may hate you because you went to a mosque or have a different ethnic background.

 

 

What's stopping you from filing an N-400 naturalization application.

I'm not sure what the problem is. You want to be a citizen & meet

the requirements, you file an N-400. Then you can vote. You get

a blue passport. You can do whatever you want - as long as its legal.

You can even live outside the US indefinitely.

 

US Citizens can file fiancee visa applications. And when the consulate

denies the application, they can hire me to make the consulate look bad and

get her the visa on the rebound. That's what I do. I make consular section

chiefs look like bozos. I enjoy my work. And I'm the best.

 

If you think Americans are anti-Arab, I'm not sure exactly

what anyone here can do about it. My own experience is that

Arabs in the US are the most honest business-owners around.

I'd rather do business with Arab-Americans than any other group.

That's just my experience though. YMMV.

 

But there is something we might agree on. Nobody gets screwed

in America worse than undocumented immigrants. There needs to

be a path to legalization. America needs immigration - badly.

Without immigration, our economy will tank. And in fact, it is

tanking as we crack down on immigration.

 

Whose gonna pay for all the boomer's SS checks if we don't have

immigrants?

[BlueStrat]

It's different and obviously faster when you acquire citizenship by marrying an American citizen. I'm not complaining - but the fact is that for some it's not as easy as flipping a switch.

 

Oh I agree totally. The path to citizenship is incredibly inefficient and bogged down with way too much bureaucracy.

 

When we started the immigration process we were trying to do it ourselves-what a nightmare. Ironically, nearly every time we went to the INS office (we lived in LA) we'd get someone working there who was themselves an immigrant and either they couldn't understand us or we couldn't understand them. It was frustrating.

 

They required my birth certificate, and then lost it and said I didn't send it. Then they wouldn't accept a notarized copy. Then they wanted our marriage license, which they accidentally shredded. Had to order a copy. Then they wanted my divorce papers from my previous marriage. Then they wanted my wife to have chest x rays. Then they wanted this or that. They never sent us an immigration packet checklist which I repeatedly asked for so we wouldn't have to keep getting our packet back with anoither request. No such luck. They sent it back several times, a few times because every time we'd send it in there was a processing fee but the fee kept going up so they'd send it back because trhe check we sent was for the OLD amount.

 

We finally said screw it and hired a lawyer. So yeah, I sympathize with folks who want to become citizens and aren't married to an American.

[audioicon]

 

What's stopping you from filing an N-400 naturalization application. I'm not sure what the problem is. You want to be a citizen & meet the requirements, you file an N-400. Then you can vote. You get a blue passport. You can do whatever you want - as long as its legal. You can even live outside the US indefinitely. US Citizens can file fiancee visa applications. And when the consulate denies the application, they can hire me to make the consulate look bad and get her the visa on the rebound. That's what I do. I make consular section chiefs look like bozos. I enjoy my work. And I'm the best. If you think Americans are anti-Arab, I'm not sure exactly what anyone here can do about it. My own experience is that Arabs in the US are the most honest business-owners around. I'd rather do business with Arab-Americans than any other group. That's just my experience though. YMMV. But there is something we might agree on. Nobody gets screwed in America worse than undocumented immigrants. There needs to be a path to legalization. America needs immigration - badly. Without immigration, our economy will tank. And in fact, it is tanking as we crack down on immigration. Whose gonna pay for all the boomer's SS checks if we don't have immigrants?

 

 

Nothing is stopping me! The truth is I'm at a time in my life where "a document" cannot convince me that I'm part of something."

Especially in a time when people are being totally discredited because of their ethnicity, religion or skin color.

 

Some readers or contributors to this thread are not fully understanding what I'm writing.

 

When I say I'm not a citizen or allow to vote:

I mean I'm still contributing to the American dream of many or the betterment of this country "even though I'm not allowed to decide it's destiny."

 

This entire thread boils down to this.

If I'm allowed to pay taxes, work and do all the things required by law and if and when I become a citizen "Please do not question my dedication, contribution or love for this country - Because and again, because even though I'm not allowed to be apart of how things are run, or who runs them, I'm still contributing to the many resources from which this country operates."

 

 

I'm not complaining of not being a citizen.

I'm proud of my citizenship "we are the first country in AFRICA to have a female president, something no one thought would ever happen.

 

This thread is about making other people's dream come true but then the very same people starts to question who you are when you want to get into a different aspect of society.

 

Americans are Americans. Well, atleast thats what I use to think.

 

AI

[eeglug]

Oh I agree totally.

 

Your story was made for one of these -

[Etienne Rambert]

(1). My editorial opinion is that citizenship should be made more difficult.

(2). Permanent residence and employment authorization should be made

a lot easier.

 

Far too many people consider American citizenship to be simply a "document",

a mere piece of paper. People take an oath when they are naturalized.

 

 

"The truth is I'm at a time in my life where "a document" cannot convince me that I'm part of something.""

 

 

If you haven't convinced yourself - ok. Don't do it.

 

But I'm convinced that LPR status, (lawful permanent residence),

should be made a lot easier. And that it should some day lead to

citizenship.

 

My other editorial opinion is that America cannot hack it without immigrants.

[Lee Knight]

 

This entire thread boils down to this. If I'm allowed to pay taxes, work and do all the things required by law and if and when I become a citizen "Please do not question my dedication, contribution or love for this country - Because and again, because even though I'm not allowed to be apart of how things are run, or who runs them, I'm still contributing to the many resources from which this country operates."

 

 

If I moved to England and got a job. Payed taxes, became a contributer to that society... there would be plenty of Brits who "question my dedication, contribution or love for [their] country."

 

My wife is from England but is now legal in the states. Occasionally she will be questioned about "[her] dedication, contribution or love for this country." Hey, she owns a thriving business while others around us are faltering. She believes in the American Dream. And yet she is questioned.

 

But we look at it realistically. It's natural for people to be protective of something they love. So while I can empathize with your concerns, I can also, without guilt, recommend you grow a thicker skin with regards to this. You will continue to be questioned by some. Expect it. And change their minds one person at a time.

 

If you're not ready to do that, you are in for a long ride. On the other hand, most welcome my wife with a big grin and open arms. The local business community accepts her fully. But you've got to be ready for the others...

[the stranger]

Far too many people consider American citizenship to be simply a "document", a mere piece of paper. People take an oath when they are naturalized.

 

The president also swears an oath going into office, but W seems to think The USC is just a goddamn piece of paper. Maybe that's where people get these ideas.

[audioicon]

 

Far too many people consider American citizenship to be simply a "document", a mere piece of paper.

 

 

Thats because your citizenship can be rejected and or terminated.

Because if you are an Arab, colored person, your patriotism is questioned everytime you try to be apart of something.

 

Maybe people wouldn't feel this way if they were made to feel apart of something.

 

AI

[audioicon]

 

dedication, contribution or love for this country." Hey, she owns a thriving business while others around us are faltering. She believes in the American Dream. And yet she is questioned. But we look at it realistically. It's natural for people to be protective of something they love. So while I can empathize with your concerns, I can also, without guilt, recommend you grow a thicker skin with regards to this. You will continue to be questioned by some. Expect it. And change their minds one person at a time. If you're not ready to do that, you are in for a long ride. On the other hand, most welcome my wife with a big grin and open arms. The local business community accepts her fully. But you've got to be ready for the others...

 

 

Just curious, and please with all due respect you don't have to answer this question if you don't feel like answering.

 

1) Is your wife black and of color?

2) Is your wife a muslim, does she wear a turbin or a scarf?

3) Is her father a muslim?

4) Did she every traveled to Saudi Arabia?

5) Did she pray at the airport?

 

Do you think I sit down worrying about this subject?

I understand your point very well but "I want to relate to it."

 

Immigrants are not treated the same.

 

And as much as it bothers me, I'm not hitting my head on the walls.

American will never be free from racism, segregation or discrimination.

This is just not America but other parts of the world even in Africa.

 

But you have an interesting prospective and I appreciate your inputs.

 

AI