OT: Do you have a GUN?

[ermghoti II]

For home protection i would suggest a couple cans of bear spray and a baseball bat. Less blood on the walls and a better physical work out. Also after you are done breaking the intruders bones and skull you can have peace of mind for the rest of your life that you destroyed another human's body, just like yours, without the cheap help of a firearm. You will also probably get less jail time because the jury will be more compassionate that you defended yourself with your hands more or less, and you may get off with just manslaughter. Or you could move, or get a home security system.

 

 

Every word of this post is spectacularly stupid. Congratulations.

 

OP: I have only seen one mention of "get a big dog" so far, but that might be the best answer. I am in fact, a gun owner, and a proponent of lethal self-defense when needed, but given your circumstances, a dog(s) may be the best answer, foe legal reasons if no other.

[halljams]

Just like mine? What if his body was trying to hurt mine? I just love these moral equivalence arguments that omit things like guilt, innocence and intent. And by the way, if you think bludgeoning someone to death with a baseball bat is less messy than a single headshot, you're insane. A better workout? If I want to work out I'll go to the gym. If I want to protect my life and property I'll do it quickly and efficiently. No need to work up a sweat over a scumbag.

 

Oh my that is wonderful, i mean how you just made your self out to be.

I was being cynical, but you my friend are serious.

Yes we must destroy all who are not like us, all who are not as good as us, and since i view your view as barbaric, by your logic i should destroy you. Do you get that?

And by subscribing to that view you are giving license for people much more powerful (in world market kinda way) to do away with little pip-squeeks like yourself as well, to make decisions that make you poorer and them richer, to take away your rights...all which is happening right in front of you right now.

Why? Because you are tricked into being afraid and feeling like you have to murder people to stay safe.

 

 

You sound more afraid than rational Mr Blue Strat.

[pk1fan]

Reminds me of that famous scene in INDIANA JONES, in which the native warriors approach Indy, waving some fearsom native nanchakus or something. He just blithely pulls a revolver and wastes 'em.

[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]

I have a 22 rifle . I like the sawwed off shotgun idea best .

[BlueStrat]

 

You sound more afraid than rational Mr Blue Strat.

And you just sound like an idealist without much reading comprehension.

 

 

Yes we must destroy all who are not like us, all who are not as good as us, and since i view your view as barbaric, by your logic i should destroy you. Do you get that?

I was talking about people bent on harming me or mine. Whether they're 'different' than me is a qualifier that is entirely of your imagination.

 

You're ascribing to me something I didn't say. If I'm trying to hurt you you have every right to destroy me. But that has nothing to do with merely being different than you.

Do you get that?

[halljams]

And you just sound like an idealist without much reading comprehension. I was talking about people bent on harming me or mine. Whether they're 'different' than me is a qualifier that is entirely of your imagination. You're ascribing to me something I didn't say. If I'm trying to hurt you you have every right to destroy me. But that has nothing to do with merely being different than you. Do you get that?

 

 

The point is to look for more forward ways to think about these things Blue.

We can try to advance or we can wallow scared and miserable in our primal clouds.

 

It doesn't take a genius to come up with your argument, everyone knows it and feels it, it is explained at birth practically. You don't have to explain your standpoint. We are all the same.

But rather than drag peoples thoughts back to lowest common denominator, why not talk about what might be next? Doesn't it make you tired to feel that way?

[maravich]

If I ever had to kill someone or shoot someone, it would be painful for me after wards morally. But the attackers cross a line, and give up their humanity if they are threatening you. At that point, to me, they become a predator, and I have the responsibility and right to protect myself from harm.

 

 

+1

[BlueStrat]

 

The point is to look for more forward ways to think about these things Blue.

If someone invades your home or attacks you physically, what "forward way" are you offering that we should think about it? While you're pissing in your Birkenstocks and pleading for your life, I'll be trying to defend myself.

 

 

 

Doesn't it make you tired to feel that way?

I don't feel that way at all. Once again you're projecting your own thinking and perceptions onto me. Whatever floats your boat.

[deanmass]

Just thought I'd point out that even in the liberal state of NY, it's legal to use deadly physical force when one has reason to believe it's necessary to "prevent or terminate a burglary" - those are the EXACT words in the NYS Penal Law - and you'll notice they don't say ANYTHING about requiring your life to be "in danger"... Truth is, nearly every state in the US has a similarly written law - and regardless of their intentions, when someone has broken into your home, you and your family ARE in danger... Please don't spread misinformation about such an important subject... - georgestrings

 

 

Castle Law I referred to earlier...literally named from England/defending your castle..

[Etienne Rambert]

slight return:

"Your hesitation sounds more tactical as opposed to emotional ('back off, or I will kill you' the fact as opposed to 'I...I..I have g-gun!' the mere threat)'

 

 

I had actually hoped only to scare him.

Thank God it worked.

 

I felt terrible after it happened. It was three college kids in a parking lot scuffle. Two of us, three of them.

 

One of them came at my Toyota truck with a baseball bat. I'd already opened my driver's side door. I saw him coming about 15-20 feet away.

 

I reached under the seat and took out the Ruger. I was holding it in both hands. I don't remember if I aimed it or not. I just wanted him to know I had it.

 

It was most definitely loaded.

 

I don't consider it a victory. I'm certainly not proud of it. I just thank God it didn't go any further. It could have screwed up both our lives. But in the end, that young gentleman and myself were rational human beings. That's rare these days.

 

Thank God he wasn't a crack addict or meth-head.

[Lukenskywalker]

Yes, several. Long guns, handguns. For various reasons. If you are considering owning a firearm for self defense, it is a serious proposition. Know your local laws regarding use of force in self defense. Take a concealed carry course even if you don't intend to have the gun out of the house. Forget everything you have ever heard, it's bull{censored}. Know the law. Know your weapon. BlueStrat has suggested a good one for home use. Another recommendation for the shotgun is that projectiles will lodge in the walls of your own house and not penetrate thru and into your neighbors house or apartment. Once you pull the trigger, you are responsible for all collateral damage. Me, I'm a fan of the .38 special. Know yourself. You might be justified shooting someone who kicked down your door to gain access. You are not justified shooting him in the back while he's carrying away your stereo. Legally, morally and ethically you are generally obliged to not shoot. Unless your life is in danger. Then you must be ready to shoot. If you can't the gun does you no good. If you do, you will be investigated, possibly arrested and charged, and possibly convicted of a heinous crime. If you choose to own a weapon for home defense, educate yourself, take classes, know the law. Learn the tactics. Owning a gun might make you feel better, but if you don't know how and when to use it, it can make things much worse. And if you haven't beefed up your home security, that might be a better and more effective way of protecting your home and family. A gun may be an option, but it is only a part of your overall security package.

 

 

This is an excellent post, addresses all aspects of gun ownership. Boxorox knows from where he speaks...Listen up, seriously... Wanna a firearm? let this be your guide for purchase and ownership.

[boxorox]

Georgestrings-- This is an important issue to me. It is an important issue to you. If I did not state my meaning clearly, my fault. However I was not, nor did I intend to be spreading misinformation. The law in these cases is highly jurisdictional. I am repeating only what I have learned in my CCW class, and what I have learned from studying court cases, civil and criminal, that arise when a self defense shooting occurs. This may not apply in your jurisdiction. Regardless of how your criminal law reads, you will face a full investigation, possible charges of using excessive force, charges that you escalated the situation or lured the decedant into it. Most states have a statute regarding a limited obligation to withdraw or retreat , when and if possible. Most states clearly define acceptible levels of force in/re the threat.
If a man broke into your home while you were away, stacked your stereo by the door, then drank a fith of whiskey and passed out on the couch, you would not be justified in shooting him as he slept just because he broke into your home. You might be justified in shooting him in the back if he was fleeing the scene with your property, in your jurisdiction, but not here. Here, we can shoot if "any reasonable person" would feel under threat of death or serious bodily harm, to protect another person under the same rules, to prevent arson or property damage that might be life threatening... But after all, regardless of how righteous the shoot may be, you will be investigated, possibly criminally charged by overzealous prosecutors, probably sued for wrongful death by the family in civil court, and put in a whole new world of hurt. Remember Bernard Goetz. Being justified by and within the law may not be enough to protect you in the aftermath of a shooting incident. Read your Massad Ayoob. If you must drop the hammer on someone, it should be your last, final, and only option under the circumstances.
I'm a little irked at the apparant accusation of "spreading misinformation". I think that was an over the top staement. There are Federal, State, County, City and Township ordinances in place. It is far from a "cut and dried" legal issue. That is why I tried to stress that the individual is responsible for knowing the laws that apply where ever he may be. I think we're on the same page here. I'd prefer a little dialog for clarification before you accuse me of making irresponsible or untrue statements. Peace.

[slight-return]

 

I had actually hoped only to scare him. Thank God it worked.

 

 

Well yeah, the difference lies in the gambit declined scenario

you hoped to scare him, BUT were also prepared to kill him "If it hadn't, I would have killed him"

 

That's the tactical nature of the "back off or I will kill you"...The "or I will kill you" was a viable option for you (not optimal, but viable)

 

so the beat was a tactical one -- you had both scenarios "back off " OR "I will kill you" covered -- you could play out either one so you could afford to allow the opponent the choice of what type of loss he would like to take...the game was over a move ago

 

If one RELIES on gambit accepted "I wanted to scare him, BUT was NOT prepared to shoot" - game's not over, the other guy still has a move

and you've potentially raised the stakes (and there's a good chance it's "all in")...as bluffs typically do

 

 

I felt terrible after it happened.

 

 

well sure - it's not a comfortable situation

 

the emotions afterward might have felt terrible, but your tactical decision...that was already made

[Beck]

 

I agree with you in those 2 points... The only thing that makes me want a gun is the feeling that a strange entered my house... My wife was like 2 hours alone in the house in the morning...what would the thief have done if my wife was there.... that is what is driving me nuts...

 

 

It's natural to have those feelings of violation and thoughts of "What if?" I know you can purchase certain firearms in Guatemala. I think it's a good idea for law abiding citizens to go through the process of legally acquiring a weapon. This may be a wake up call... a second chance to consider what could have happened and what may yet happen if you and your family are unable to defend yourselves against intruders.

 

A short-barrel (18") pump-action pistol-grip shotgun is probably your best bet, as already mentioned by BlueStrat. However the one in that photo is only a 10" barrel

[Ani]

 

Hey Ani,   Ya wanna play cops and bad girls? When I dug my old duty belt out of the closet I found my old handcuffs. I

[georgestrings]

Georgestrings-- This is an important issue to me. It is an important issue to you. If I did not state my meaning clearly, my fault. However I was not, nor did I intend to be spreading misinformation. The law in these cases is highly jurisdictional. I am repeating only what I have learned in my CCW class, and what I have learned from studying court cases, civil and criminal, that arise when a self defense shooting occurs. This may not apply in your jurisdiction. Regardless of how your criminal law reads, you will face a full investigation, possible charges of using excessive force, charges that you escalated the situation or lured the decedant into it. Most states have a statute regarding a limited obligation to withdraw or retreat , when and if possible. Most states clearly define acceptible levels of force in/re the threat. If a man broke into your home while you were away, stacked your stereo by the door, then drank a fith of whiskey and passed out on the couch, you would not be justified in shooting him as he slept just because he broke into your home. You might be justified in shooting him in the back if he was fleeing the scene with your property, in your jurisdiction, but not here. Here, we can shoot if "any reasonable person" would feel under threat of death or serious bodily harm, to protect another person under the same rules, to prevent arson or property damage that might be life threatening... But after all, regardless of how righteous the shoot may be, you will be investigated, possibly criminally charged by overzealous prosecutors, probably sued for wrongful death by the family in civil court, and put in a whole new world of hurt. Remember Bernard Goetz. Being justified by and within the law may not be enough to protect you in the aftermath of a shooting incident. Read your Massad Ayoob. If you must drop the hammer on someone, it should be your last, final, and only option under the circumstances. I'm a little irked at the apparant accusation of "spreading misinformation". I think that was an over the top staement. There are Federal, State, County, City and Township ordinances in place. It is far from a "cut and dried" legal issue. That is why I tried to stress that the individual is responsible for knowing the laws that apply where ever he may be. I think we're on the same page here. I'd prefer a little dialog for clarification before you accuse me of making irresponsible or untrue statements. Peace.

 

 

 

You can be irked all you want, but other than California, there isn't a "duty to retreat in your own home" law in another state in the US - to my knowledge... No doubt if you shoot a burglar in your home, you will be booked, arraigned, then eventually have to appear in front of a grand jury - I know this 1st hand... Goetz is not applicable to this situation - as his gun was illegal, and he wasn't in his home - also, it wasn't unreasonable to perceive his actions as "excessive", given his testimony... I'll note that his "victims" all turned out to be career criminals, though - and *probably* got what they deserved for trying to victimize another human being... I've read Ayoob's stuff, and have lived this scenario 1st hand - and BTW, you're not the only one with a CCW license... I've quoted NY's law regarding this subject, and am confident in my position - why don't you name your home state, and we'll see what your's has to say on the subject???

 

 

- georgestrings

 

 

Edited to add: I do believe we're on the same side on this issue, and I didn't mean to come across as a dick to you...

[Lee Knight]

I don't have an issue killing or seriously injuring an intruder who means my family harm. Yet I don't want a gun in the house.

I keep hammers positioned throughout my house. One on top of the fridge. One in my bedside table. One in the bathroom drawer. The laundry room. On top of my kids room's TV cabinet.

I figure, given the right opportunity, I could stop someone with a well placed blow.

[deanmass]

I actually have one of these...

 

That is a great idea...They are hard to swing though...the one I have weighs about 4 lbs...A day of ripping down plaster will make you feel it.

[BlueStrat]

I don't have an issue killing or seriously injuring an intruder who means my family harm. Yet I don't want a gun in the house. I keep hammers positioned throughout my house. One on top of the fridge. One in my bedside table. One in the bathroom drawer. The laundry room. On top of my kids room's TV cabinet. I figure given the right opportunity, I could stop someone with a well placed blow.

 

 

Provided you could get close enough I suppose.

To paraphrase and old maxim-'never bring a hammer to a gunfight!'

 

 

 

I just hope none of us ever has to find out what we'd do or how it would turn out.

 

I once got into a fight with guy when I was in my 20s. I had him down and clearly got the better of him (he had been drinking and I wasn't) so I let him up and told him to beat it. He turned to leave as did I. Next thing I know I heard a scream and he was coming at me with a chunk of 2 x 4 that God only knows where he got. I got such a rush of adrenaline and so pissed at the same time that I ran right at him and popped him in the nose before he could bring that 2 x 4 down. Then I got on top of him and beat on him until I was tired of it. He was messed up pretty bad.

 

Was I justified? Sure. But boy did I feel like crap for beating him so bad. I can imagine how I'd have felt if I'd shot him. But as mad and pumped up as I was at the time, if I'd have had a gun I probably would have.

[UstadKhanAli]

Reminds me of that famous scene in INDIANA JONES, in which the native warriors approach Indy, waving some fearsom native nanchakus or something. He just blithely pulls a revolver and wastes 'em.

I remember that scene. Great scene! This guy comes at him, expertly brandishing a couple of swords. Indiana Jones almost rolls his eyes and simply pulls out a revolver and shoots him.

What was originally planned was this cool fight scene in which Jones battles him with the whip. When it came time to shoot the scene, however, Harrison Ford really had to go to the bathroom, so he pulled out the revolver and shot the swordsman as a joke. The director and everyone else cracked up and loved it so much that they kept it in.

[UstadKhanAli]

I witnessed something similar but crazier. I come from an old neighbourhood where familes have lived for centuries and everybody knows eachother. 20 yards away from my elderly home there's this bar that for 90% is populated by mobsters and criminals. They all work together,..there's fences,hitmen,guys who run lotteries and do in marihuana and stuff. One day I was about 19 years old I was drinking a beer at the bar with about 20 of those guys,..some were my nephews ,most of them are from our neighbourhood,...everyone knows everyone. And,...everyone carries a gun,... The door opens and this heroin junkie comes in. Walks to the bar,...draws a gun and says:" money man,..I need yo money",... I look at him and so does the bartender(who starts smiling). I tell the Junie to look around and turn around to watch what's happening,... He turns around and sees about 20 guys with drawn guns all pointed at him,.whahahaha I never saw someone look so frightened in my life,... He turned around his gun,...gave it to the bartender and said : "Have a goodnight everyone,.." and then he ran to the door,... We never saw him again. Sometimes when I'm at my parents house I walk to the bar and everytime 'm there someone brings up that ridiculous story,... It was one of those things that only happen in movies but I swear it's the truth,... Booshy

 

 

This is a great story!!!!!

[ermghoti II]

You can be irked all you want, but other than California, there isn't a "duty to retreat in your own home" law in another state in the US - to my knowledge...

 

 

Massachusetts. Of course.

[UstadKhanAli]

If I ever had to kill someone or shoot someone, it would be painful for me after wards morally. But the attackers cross a line, and give up their humanity if they are threatening you. At that point, to me, they become a predator, and I have the responsibility and right to protect myself from harm.

 

 

I think I feel the same way.

 

The only thing that comes close to this is that when I was a kid, I was threatened by someone standing in my way with a knife drawn while walking home from school. I backed up, as I could not go around. He came forward. I backed up some more. He continued coming forward, coming even faster. I quickly reached down, picked up a small light tree branch that had fallen to the ground, and jammed it into his face, with all the little tiny branches as well as the larger one hitting and poking his face. He cried out in pain, dropping the knife. He dropped to his knees (probably partially in pain, probably partially because he was trying to find his knife, I don't know), and I booted him repeatedly in his head. I never knew why he did this. He never said a word. Neither did I. I never felt bad about it. I was pumped full of adrenaline and animal fear, and ran without stopping for a mile back to my house.

[Beck]

No one I know in law enforcement that has been involved in a shooting incident feels elated about it. I think the movies make it look easy, and the "good guy" will always have some cold smartass quip as he blows away the villain.

In real life normal emotionally healthy people just don't enjoy killing. The best-case scenario is that you're defending someone else and thus you are saving an innocent life by stopping a threat. Stopping the threat is the objective. Unfortunately, when facing an armed human threat you must take him out as quickly as possible before he has the chance to take you or an innocent. Since humans are rather fragile creatures this will likely lead to the death of the attacker.

I like to go out to the range and shoot... it's like any other sport. I have the weapons to defend myself and my loved ones (Hell, I guess my whole neighborhood) against any threat. However I pray I never have to take a human life for any reason. We are spiritual beings created by God... life is sacred. I've had firearms under my control since age 11. I've never shot or even pointed the muzzle at anything I wasn't supposed to, nor have shot anyone. It would take an immediate potentially lethal threat for me to do so. Here's hoping that threat never materializes.

On the other hand, coming between the predator and his prey

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

Just small ones

[Beck]

But Timmy, I'm SOOOOOOOOO good when I'm bad. Why would you want to put me in handcuffs..... um, unless you are planning to cuff me to you?

 

Well, eh... you're too good when you're bad... a very dangerous woman. In fact the mostest dangerousest woman I've ever known. And how can I do a proper patdown with only one hand? God forbid... What if I miss something?

 

I