Bill Moyers interviews Cigna Exec re: Health Care in America

[Lee Flier]

Except the government gets the money from citizens, so that means people that use more health care are subsidized by people that don't get sick.

 

... just like private insurance! Except if government administers it, middlemen don't profit from it.

[Ernest Buckley]

... just like private insurance! Except if government administers it, middlemen don't profit from it.

Yes! Like GEICO, except we would call it... SICKO or... something

[WRGKMC]

My two cents. Those who believe in socalised medicine have some major faults. First are ignorance and selfishness.

They know no other way of getting the problem fixed for themselves no less an entire country. They are ignorant thinking polititions wont use this, they are ignorant as to the consequences to quality of health care, they are ignorant as to what they will have left in their paychecks after paying for it, and are ignorant as to buying into anything manipulative that comes along because they trust feelings and feeling good over using their minds to gather facts and think things through.

 

They are selfish because they dont care what it costs everone else and what freedoms it strips other of. They are selfish for thinking their problems are biggier than others. They are selfish in thinking the world owes then a living, and they have a major chronic case of keeping up with the Jonses and will sacrifice their pride for things, thats is they have any pride to begin with.

 

There is no sence in living in a world where all you have is healthcare. You sure as hell wont have any spending money left to enjoy life paying for it. You wont have any freedom when government ditctates how you must eat, live and sleep at threat of being dropped from healthcare and having no competion as an alternative. Competioion will end, no way about it. If it isnt done through laws it will be done through manipulation of laws.

 

Lastly my solution would be healthcare accounts that cant be touched, taxed, manipulated by the government or any other institution. It could have a maximum cap, and once reached, the returns on the account are channeled to account of those who are unable to pay into them or have had catastrophic illness etc. This means if someone say, 30 gets sick and has to get major medical done draining their account, the account gets replentished by the profits of all. If someone gets diagnosed with incurable illness they have a choice. Pass it down to their kids or drain the account and have a major party if they want. There can be all kinds of charities directed to only giving to the accounts. There could be tons of other benificial addins that are both tax free and cant be manipulated by any government or private company.

 

To me this is the only good solution I've ever heard. It sustains peoples trust and dignity and takes away peoples fears that are being used to drive people.

 

As thing are going now, socialised medicine is simply putting big brother out there with a club taking handouts instead of individuals going about hat in hand to ask for the money. It makes them feel respectable to have big brother collecting instead of going to all the charities themselves to ask for help. To me they are cowards. I know alot about this myself having chronically sick children and wife. I chose to work 2 jobs for many years instead of asking for charity but know for a fact they are out there willing to help those who honestly need it.

 

I've worked jobs and paid medical insurance for 40 years and never had to use it myself. If I could get back a small portion of what I paid in I could retire today. I'd also probibly be healthier not having the stress of worrying about loosing jobs and loosing healthcare, same goes for having to worry about standing in line for years to get government help.

 

Again this is only my two cents. I dont trust politions or government. They have to remain popular to keep their paychecks. Any idiot should know people will stoop to doing anything to remain popular and profitable. If they dont theis country surely is ill.

[Ernest Buckley]

My two cents. Those who believe in socalised medicine have some major faults. First are ignorance and selfishness. They know no other way of getting the problem fixed for themselves no less an entire country. They are ignorant thinking polititions wont use this, they are ignorant as to the consequences to quality of health care, they are ignorant as to what they will have left in their paychecks after paying for it, and are ignorant as to buying into anything manipulative that comes along because they trust feelings and feeling good over using their minds to gather facts and think things through. They are selfish because they dont care what it costs everone else and what freedoms it strips other of. They are selfish for thinking their problems are biggier than others. They are selfish in thinking the world owes then a living, and they have a major chronic case of keeping up with the Jonses and will sacrifice their pride for things, thats is they have any pride to begin with. There is no sence in living in a world where all you have is healthcare. You sure as hell wont have any spending money left to enjoy life paying for it. You wont have any freedom when government ditctates how you must eat, live and sleep at threat of being dropped from healthcare and having no competion as an alternative. Competioion will end, no way about it. If it isnt done through laws it will be done through manipulation of laws. Lastly my solution would be healthcare accounts that cant be touched, taxed, manipulated by the government or any other institution. It could have a maximum cap, and once reached, the returns on the account are channeled to account of those who are unable to pay into them or have had catastrophic illness etc. This means if someone say, 30 gets sick and has to get major medical done draining their account, the account gets replentished by the profits of all. If someone gets diagnosed with incurable illness they have a choice. Pass it down to their kids or drain the account and have a major party if they want. There can be all kinds of charities directed to only giving to the accounts. There could be tons of other benificial addins that are both tax free and cant be manipulated by any government or private company. To me this is the only good solution I've ever heard. It sustains peoples trust and dignity and takes away peoples fears that are being used to drive people. As thing are going now, socialised medicine is simply putting big brother out there with a club taking handouts instead of individuals going about hat in hand to ask for the money. It makes them feel respectable to have big brother collecting instead of going to all the charities themselves to ask for help. To me they are cowards. I know alot about this myself having chronically sick children and wife. I chose to work 2 jobs for many years instead of asking for charity but know for a fact they are out there willing to help those who honestly need it. I've worked jobs and paid medical insurance for 40 years and never had to use it myself. If I could get back a small portion of what I paid in I could retire today. I'd also probibly be healthier not having the stress of worrying about loosing jobs and loosing healthcare, same goes for having to worry about standing in line for years to get government help. Again this is only my two cents. I dont trust politions or government. They have to remain popular to keep their paychecks. Any idiot should know people will stoop to doing anything to remain popular and profitable. If they dont theis country surely is ill.

 

 

The systems are in place. Look at France & Canada for example. Surely no system is perfect but take what works and adjust. I`m not smart enough to come up with a system that will work on all levels but I am smart enough to know that the current system is not working for many people. And for that reason, it must change.

[Billster]

For anyone else's benefit (I looked it up to be sure) Palliative care: Medical or comfort care that reduces the severity of a disease or slows its progress rather than providing a cure. ... Let me think on that one Blister......

Since your screen name is "Geezer"

[John Sayers]

The heart attack I experienced last year would have cost me in excess of $100,000 in the US - it cost me $300 which was the ambulance fee.

This should be in the political forum!

[Ernest Buckley]

The heart attack I experienced last year would have cost me in excess of $100,000 in the US - it cost me $300 which was the ambulance fee. This should be in the political forum!

I disagree about the political forum thingy but I`m glad someone else is finally posting some avatars worth looking at!

[John Sayers]

but you don't like blondes Ernest

[Ernest Buckley]

but you don't like blondes Ernest

 

For the most part thats true... but I do make exceptions occasionally. Funny you remembered that...

[Raymar]

I like the idea of a socialized Health Care system but only after paying off the multi-trillion $$$ deficit(with interest) first! Then we can think about popping $1.5 Trillion for health care.

Steve

[Billster]

... just like private insurance! Except if government administers it, middlemen don't profit from it.

The difference is that private insurance is a mutual agreement, while a government mandate is...a mandate.

And the government is pretty good at wasting money

If they can sub-contract military operations to Blackwater, tamper with auto manufacturers, and prop up investment banks, why not sub-contract health care to some insurance entity deemed "too big to fail"? :blah:

[franknputer]

And, of course, private companies NEVER waste money, right?

 

Let me ask this: how do these higher costs balance out against things like providing increased preventative care (which is far cheaper), decreases in unnecessary emergency care visits by people who don't have insurance and/or wait too long to get treatments, or removing the incentive to prescribe long, costly (and therefore profitable) treatment plans?

[ggm1960]

Can someone explain why the federal government should have any business messing with the health care system?????

This is political forum BS where people that can't operate calculators have great ideas for saving the world.

[Billster]

And, of course, private companies NEVER waste money, right? Let me ask this: how do these higher costs balance out against things like providing increased preventative care (which is far cheaper), decreases in unnecessary emergency care visits by people who don't have insurance and/or wait too long to get treatments, or removing the incentive to prescribe long, costly (and therefore profitable) treatment plans?

Are you talking to me?

I'm not advocating higher costs and insurance companies skimming their tribute.

My real point is that Ernest and Dean are saying "if you need treatment you get it, it's that simple", and it isn't that simple. My personal experience in my day gig, and my wife's experience as a health care professional, shows me that people make poor choices when it comes to health care. Obviously, preventive care is less expensive; and people using emergency rooms as their primary care is a disaster.

What I'm saying is that people are simply not honest about making responsible choices regarding healthcare. It is not appropriate for all patients to have every possible treatment, but when somebody says that you have the usual suspects (and often times other parties) screaming about "rationing healthcare". As it stands, healthcare is rationed every day in this country, but it isn't discussed out loud or frankly.

[the stranger]

I just don't see why these issues we all have to address are automatically poli forum material. As long as we are having a civilized discourse, I contend it doesn't belong in the poli forum. The poli forum is for the stuff that trashes out the regular forums. I don't see a civil discussion about health care as out of place in this forum.

 

My two cents?

 

Amend The Constituution to force all health related industry and services (including the med insurance criminals, and the big pharm drug pushers) into the non profit sector.

 

Running health care at a profit is downright inhuman and unethical, as far as I'm concerned.

 

And I'm a free market libertarian. But, some things don't belong in the free market. Health care is one, and government is the other.

[the stranger]

And why do people insist on coming in a thread they think doesn't belong here to tell us it doesn't belong here?

 

Perhaps you shouldn't participate if you don't think the thread belongs here?

 

Seems like you guys gave up that notion and contributed anyway. Good. People need to discuss our issues we face as a society. And the poli forum is not exactly what I would call a good place for discussion.

 

It used to be when it moderated itself and was comprised of MP veterans. Once we moved here and the members of OJ saw it as a new trolling fiesta, it's never been the same.

 

I really wish somebody would make me moderator down there, so I can return that forum to it's previous function. It won't be pretty, but once I get it cleaned up and people know what the limits are, it will police itself, like we do here.

 

As it stands now, the complete lack of moderation has turned it into a feedback loop that goes nowhere.

 

And the slight moderation it has had has been completely biased and not fair or evenly applied.

[Coaster]

1. what things do the federal government do well now? really think about this before you answer.

 

2. how will they suddenly do well at healthcare?

 

3. who among us has the right to dictate who and what should earn a profit?

 

4. why is profit becoming a bad word in this country?

 

5. why should anyone demand the right or expectation to have "free" healthcare? should we demand "free" food? "free" cars? "free" housing?

 

while i agree the health issue is serious and in its current state is less than ideal (especially for me, i get to have my biweekly $2000 shot tomorrow so i don't die), it does have the most advanced equipment and treatment in the world due to competition.

 

i certainly don't like paying as much as i do to be kept from being dead, but i don't expect you to pay for my health nor any goverment program.

 

everyday i find i am in a stranger and more foreign country, surrounded by more and more people i highly disagree with and who are becoming in my opinion more and more selfish and alienated from reality. in a way, the society i was raised in has broken down. i fear future generations will look at the timespan of 2000-2012 as a dark era in their history after all records are translated into chinese.

 

personally i think we should end the federal government. they have failed miserably.

[John Sayers]

what things do the federal government do well now?

 

 

They defend you with a military system that is a country within a country. This inner country organises it's own healthcare adequately, it also offers to it's members education, housing, transport and funerals.

 

That's what your federal government does well.

 

It's a shame you have to join the military to benefit from it.

[Coaster]

it also excludes/denies those it does not deem fit or qualified. your analogy is flawed, and an arguable point as well.

 

if we have a nat'l heathcare, who would we exclude that is not fit/qualified?

 

the military is not internally funded, the taxpayers money funds it. there are a lot more taxpayers thnt there are military.

 

i think many of you will be shocked to find out this idea of gov't healthcare will cost you a lot more money than you pay now for a lot less quality.

 

i'm not standing up for the current system; i agree it is flawed. but i think the standing mindset of 'gov't should take care of me' will make the situation far worse. i hope i can someday eat my words, but i doubt it with the greatest of severity.

 

gov't shouldnt take care of us. we should take care of gov't, and we do not. they have run amok.

[the stranger]

1. what things do the federal government do well now?

The most pertinent question.

everyday i find i am in a stranger and more foreign country, surrounded by more and more people i highly disagree with and who are becoming in my opinion more and more selfish and alienated from reality. in a way, the society i was raised in has broken down. i fear future generations will look at the timespan of 2000-2012 as a dark era in their history after all records are translated into chinese. personally i think we should end the federal government. they have failed miserably.

A stranger in our own home.

I believe in a complete shutdown, with the states assuming duites and rectifying their own issues, and then performing a full audit of the federal government and press charges/make changes accordingly.

I believe in The Constitution and what this country stands for. It has been stolen by profiteers who do not serve anybody but themselves.

They pass laws without reading them, written by corporations and lobbyists, and make us foot the bill for their genocide campaigns.

And they're destroying our integrity and dividing us from within.

You're basic human rights are enshrined in that document. Yes, your rights exist inherently, but the only government based on them is ours.

If you think the new system will provide your the same rights and liberties as those that have fought and died for enjoyed, you are mistaken.

Admit it, or stay in denial...but, this is the fourth reich. You just don't see it yet, because you choose not to. 1984 isn't some science fiction, it was a warning people chose to ignore. Eisenhower spelled it out for you, but you still refused to listen.

JFK reiterated the same truth.

Four types of people today:

1. People who are in denial to protect their fragile psyches.
2. Card carrying members.
3. Complete morons.
4. People with bullhorns.

[the stranger]

They defend you with a military system that is a country within a country. This inner country organises it's own healthcare adequately, it also offers to it's members education, housing, transport and funerals. That's what your federal government does well. It's a shame you have to join the military to benefit from it.

The spoils of war. They do genocide good, I still don't have any respect for them. And for the record, Dick Cheney said the Pentagon was missing quite a large sum of money....this is in addition to the various nukes, bio weapons, and other arms they have "misplaced".

Those no good bastards consider people like me "low level terrorists". Just because I speak my mind. The thought police are in full force these days.

I refuse to submit. The federal misgovernment is being run buy murderous tyrannical fascists engaging in centuries of genocide and war profiteering.



History is obviously doomed to repeat itself, no matter how many good quotes you can muster.

[Coaster]

 

4. People with bullhorns.

 

 

ah yes, the terrorists. dont we have a war on terror? (unfortunately this isnt funny, nor is it much of a stretch)

[John Sayers]

The spoils of war. They do genocide good, I still don't have any respect for them. And for the record, Dick Cheney said the Pentagon was missing quite a large sum of money....this is in addition to the various nukes, bio weapons, and other arms they have "misplaced". Those no good bastards consider people like me "low level terrorists". Just because I speak my mind. The thought police are in full force these days. I refuse to submit. The federal misgovernment is being run buy murderous tyrannical fascists engaging in centuries of genocide and war profiteering. History is obviously doomed to repeat itself, no matter how many good quotes you can muster.

and you believe this shouldn't be in the Political Forum.

i think many of you will be shocked to find out this idea of gov't healthcare will cost you a lot more money than you pay now for a lot less quality

I pay 1.5% of my gross income as a Medicare Levy. Do a calculation on YOUR gross income and compare it to the amount you currently pay for health insurance - I suspect the figures will speak for themselves.

[deanmass]

Whomever it was who offered the 'people who cannot operate calculators' wisdom....

Please do the math and some research. Our system is the least efficient with more administrative costs than ALL of the other systems I have seen in any of the above mentioned reports.

Our nation always has wealth for all this gung ho, nation building bull{censored}, but we do not take care of our vets. We like to think we are the 'best' at everything, but we are falling down HARD in the area of health care, and our SOCIETY is suffering. If they could put in a Libertarian/pure non-profit type system that ensured some fail-safes, I think that would be best, but, our system is so far gone now, and corporate health entities have so much power over things like YOUR credit report, your financial history, etc, that we need to 'reset' it. Many of the people commenting on here are basically talking about trusting a corporation over their own government. A few are implying that if you get sick, well...meh...we have more humans. we will string you along. Where we are right now is if you get sick without health care or worse with health care that takes over the life you have left with approvals, deductables, etc, that is really what happens..your disease kills you off, and they suck your carcass dry, evaporating the long term wealth you have gained over your working life and feeding it to the corporation.

Our health care system is a mess.

We ALL know it. These links I have put up have done one thing, at least gotten people talking about it. The citizenry of our country deserve health care at little or no cost, especially in light of the debt we are willing to rubber stamp for foreign wars, international aid, etc.

SICKO is on TV tonight. Watch it if you have not, but please, do so with an open mind. Yes Michael Moore is a big fat irritant, but he gets people talking, gets people thinking and puts together some compelling truths sometimes.

[Billster]

Where we are right now is if you get sick without health care or worse with health care that takes over the life you have left with approvals, deductables, etc, that is really what happens..your disease kills you off, and they suck your carcass dry, evaporating the long term wealth you have gained over your working life and feeding it to the corporation.

 

 

 

What I'm saying is that people do not wisely exercise their choice to opt out of that. Just because the doctor says "treatment is available" doesn't mean that particular treatment is the best choice for the patient.