Tuning down to Eb...

[d_dave_c]

I tried it a few times when I was younger - probably after playing along with SRV and Hendrix records. I soon stopped when I ended up having to play everything in F and Bb when I jammed with other people!

[giantbaba]

Sorry, but it doesn't make sense. First ... All singers (including untrained singers) have an upper and lower boundary to their vocal range. To assume that always lowering the key will make it easier to sing simply can't always be true. For may songs, you'd just be lowering the key until its lowest notes are below the lower boundary of your range. Second ... Guitars, no matter how they are tuned, are not key specific instruments. Lowering the tuning of a guitar by a semi-tone and then using the same fingering as standard tuning will produce the exact same key as leaving the tuning the same and transposing the key down by a semi-tone.

 

 

How does it not make sense? You're being deliberately argumentative, pedantic and obtuse.

 

To your first point, it makes high notes easier to "reach" with my voice (and I am far from alone on this). Not many songs have notes so low that I can't sing, whether I'm using standard or Eb. I will absolutely admit some songs are in fact easier in standard, even. Just not most in my experience.

 

Secondly, not on open chords, which are what I mostly use. You're right about jazz/power/barre chords played up the neck, of course.

[fu2jobu]

Why? It makes learning Hendrix songs much more difficult cos you have to retune your guitar to play along!

Ummmmmm welcome to the computer age? I have been using a plug in for winamp for over 10 years. If a song is in standard tuning I drop it a half step with the software rather than retuning a guitar. Soooooo much easier. Plus the ability to slow the tempo down.... really you should join the computer age :poke:

P.S. yeah its easier to sing some songs in Eb therefore I play all songs in Eb.

[CoqBelliqueux]

Does that mean you also tune UP when a song's original key is below your natural range?

Of course not!

[fu2jobu]

Sorry, but it doesn't make sense. First ... All singers (including untrained singers) have an upper and lower boundary to their vocal range. To assume that always lowering the key will make it easier to sing simply can't always be true. For may songs, you'd just be lowering the key until its lowest notes are below the lower boundary of your range.

 

 

Who is assuming that always lowering the key will make it easier? It's not a matter of always it's a matter of will it for certain songs. If it does for certain songs then it may be a good choice to do it for all (most) songs.

 

Could you imagine the hassle for the average musician if the key was always switching so that it was always in the key that hit the vocalistists sweet spot? What a nightmare. Pick a key and stick to it is a much more useable approach IMO.

[bluesnapper]

I'm not going to tune down a half step and then play everything with a capo on fret 1!

 

On a non-tempered keyboard - pre Bach we're talking here - each key did have its own distinct sound as the intervals between the notes of the were different in each key. But on a guitar the only difference is pitch - what key it's in makes no different - think Nigel Tufnell - "I always thought Dminor was the saddest of keys"

 

Must be because of string tension and/or playing with a brass section...

[Kramerguy]

for me, it's like this:

 

I learned Eruption.

 

Play it in Eb - sounds fantastic, the phaser really growls and makes the notes sing, everything feels and sounds very natural.

 

Play it in standard E - sounds distant, less rhythmic, fretboard even feels dead-er. Stretches have less flavor and the phaser doesn't seem to even accent the feel accurately.

 

Now, that's just THAT song-

 

Every song, singer, guitar, band, etc.. has it's own perfect key. Part of songwriting and performing is figuring that out and exploiting it as best you can

[WRGKMC]

Many dont know this. Back in vinyl days and Strobe tuners being the only real tuner available, there were two different tuning standards.

 

The Strobe tuner uses a neon lamp that blinked at 60hz and the notes would cause the motor spinning the disks to spin at a specific speed when you hit a note.

 

In england the electricity is 50hz. If the Strobe wasnt calibrated for 50hz the notes would be flat in comparison to US tuning. It likely required different disks to accomodate the Hertz changes. I'm sure many just adapted the voltage and didnt do anything about the disks.

 

You also had many who recorded and mayby just tuned by ear or piano that may have not been in tune. It didnt really matter so long as all the instruments on the recording were tuned the same.

 

If you have issues playing to out of tune music, and dont want to jack with intonation, and relief issues that come about with non standard tuning, simply get a player that will pitch shift. Problem fixed. You can also have it slow down the music without pitch shifting so you can figure out those ultra fast leads you just cant hear properly at normal speed.

[Jim_Soloway]

How does it not make sense? You're being deliberately argumentative, pedantic and obtuse. To your first point, it makes high notes easier to "reach" with my voice (and I am far from alone on this). Not many songs have notes so low that I can't sing, whether I'm using standard or Eb. I will absolutely admit some songs are in fact easier in standard, even. Just not most in my experience. Secondly, not on open chords, which are what I mostly use. You're right about jazz/power/barre chords played up the neck, of course.

 

 

I'm actually not being pedantic at all. I made my living as a guitarist/vocalist for years and I have a really good understanding of how to find the right key for me to sing a song in. Sometimes it's up from the original, sometimes it's down.

 

The real answer on where we differ is in your final paragraph: if open chords are what you mostly use, then you will always be forced to change the guitar to find your key. I think that's an unfortunate limitation that sacrifices way too much of the musical power of the instrument.

[giantbaba]

Yeah, I've heard your playing. You're way, way better than me. Plus you build awesome guitars. You have an excuse to be smug, I guess.

[Jim_Soloway]

Yeah, I've heard your playing. You're way, way better than me. Plus you build awesome guitars. You have an excuse to be smug, I guess.

 

 

If it seems like I'm trying to be smug, then I apologize. That's really not my intention.

[giantbaba]

I was kidding with that last line. I respect the heck out of you, dude. I was merely detailing my own experience and preferences.

[Padrino]

sooo....two pages. and noone mentioned that back in his day, only heavier gage strings were available, and since he liked to bend quite heavily, the heavier gage strings didn't really work out too well for that.

 

His first album in standard tuning, he used banjo strings to relieve some of the tension and allow for heavier bends. Tuning down to Eb made it easier for him to bend, thats it.

[BydoEmpire]

A couple months ago I started tuning one of my strats to Eb because:

1) it has a 9.5" radius and this particular guitar feels really nice a little more slack
2) it's nice to have one guitar in that tuning if I want to jam w/ Hendrix/SRV stuff. Also nice for noodling around in different-sounding keys than I typically go to.

[Operator]

Also Eb is an awesome key for my Rhodes player to play in.

[m90guy]

Eb for me. I also like going from Eb to Drop Db/C#. I also like the way it feels better as well.

[benzem]

This business about vocals makes no sense. Every singer has an appropriate key for every song. Sometimes it may be lower, sometimes it may be higher. And for the singer, tuning down a half step is no different than leaving the guitar in standard pitch and simply transposing the song to a lower key. On the other hand, most guitars sound dramatically different (and often more resonant) when you down tune them by a semi-tone.

 

 

But so many tunes are in E. OR...the guitar part depends on open strings...OR..it's in F# and you need to be able to go down to E, a very common thing. etc

 

Believe me, it makes a huge difference.

 

And playing a song in standard tuning that needs to be in "open" keys like E or A, means the singer must sing 1/2 step higher than the original.

 

And the original was prob the best take on the best day with a fresh throat.

[BrokenFighter]

Why? It makes learning Hendrix songs much more difficult cos you have to retune your guitar to play along! I can think of a few reasons why people might do it, but what's the real reason? e.g. playing in saxophone-friendly keys, loosening string tension... it can't really be adapting to your singing voice can it? This is one explanation I've heard before and I don't buy... Does anyone know or can anyone guess why some guitar players tune down?

Your obviously not a singer... Singer's have this thing, its called a range. And it limits how high we can sing. If the guitars are tuned down a half step, then the singer can sing a half step lower, allowing them to sing with less strain because they are keeping more within their range. This allows for better singing, more expression, and a longer time the singer can sing.

[ashasha]

If you listen to the DLR era of VH it's all Eb.

 

Van Hagar is all E standard.

 

What changed? The singer did.

 

I'm just saying....

 

As for Black Sabbath who tuned down all the time, Tony said that it was to help make it easier to play after his accident. Coincidentally it made his tone thick as hell and pretty much defined heavy metal.

[Raskolnikovs axe]

 

This business about vocals makes no sense. Every singer has an appropriate key for every song. Sometimes it may be lower, sometimes it may be higher. And for the singer, tuning down a half step is no different than leaving the guitar in standard pitch and simply transposing the song to a lower key. On the other hand, most guitars sound dramatically different (and often more resonant) when you down tune them by a semi-tone.

 

 

While what you're saying is true, I think in most people's experience, songs being too high is a much more common issue. Tuning down makes it easier to play those songs.

 

Sometimes it makes sense when writing you own songs too. My last band did it and we were an all originals group, and in the writing process, we were coming up with stuff we liked but after a while it proved that it was just a bit too much of a strain on the singer. We liked the melodies and instrumentation we'd written, so rather than re-write the vocals or transpose everything, we just decided we'd all tune down a half step and boom - problem solved.

[bluesnapper]

Your obviously not a singer... Singer's have this thing, its called a range. And it limits how high we can sing. If the guitars are tuned down a half step, then the singer can sing a half step lower, allowing them to sing with less strain because they are keeping more within their range. This allows for better singing, more expression, and a longer time the singer can sing.

 

 

...but I do sing! And range goes both ways, up and down. I often find my voice strained when I'm trying to sing low as well as high!

[Alex W]

...but I do sing! And range goes both ways, up and down. I often find my voice strained when I'm trying to sing low as well as high!

 

 

But I have found, at least for my voice, that I'm not trying to sing low to a guitar that's tuned down a half step. That is just my range. I don't have to force my voice to go lower to sing with an Eb tuning.

 

Back in the day mot of the stuff I was playing was tuned down a half step (Hendrix, Weezer, Brand New) and I just became accustomed to it. Almost to the point where now standard tuning sounds off to me.

[Spike Li]

Metallica tunes to Eb when they play live. I dont know when they started doing this (as a lot of their stuff was recorded in standard) but I know they did it for their S&M album and still do it now. I much prefer the deeper tone of their live stuff, and Im guessing it also has something to do with James' singing as his voice has changed a lot over the years. What I dont get is why they bothered recording Death Magnetic in standard 2 years ago when they go ahead and play it live in Eb now

[tlbonehead]

Do you sing? For me and many others who do, you may find it's easier to sing along to an Eb-tuned guitar. Nearly all of my original songs, and the covers I like to play, are much easier to sing when tuned down.

Heck yes. Especially after singing for 3+ hour gigs 2-3 nights in a row. Makes a heck of a difference. Sounds a little fatter too.

[CoqBelliqueux]

Metallica tunes to Eb when they play live. I dont know when they started doing this (as a lot of their stuff was recorded in standard) but I know they did it for their S&M album and still do it now. I much prefer the deeper tone of their live stuff, and Im guessing it also has something to do with James' singing as his voice has changed a lot over the years. What I dont get is why they bothered recording Death Magnetic in standard 2 years ago when they go ahead and play it live in Eb now

I've always wondered why Maiden still doesn't tune down. Bruce has been struggling for a while now.

Maybe the old-time fans couldn't handle Run to the Hills in a different key?