Members ashasha Posted October 4, 2011 Members Share Posted October 4, 2011 I'm one of those guys that needs to have a good tone in order to play or else I just freeze up. I had thought for a long time that it was because I was inspired by the tone and feel of the gear I was using and that kind of made sense to me. I don't have a lot of creative ideas flowing in me that I need to get out most of the time; I'm more of a complimentary/reactionary player in that I need something to get me going. But I was thinking about this some more recently and another discussion on another board got me thinking about my approach in general. In the real world my job is to design and maintain systems of all sorts, but my specialty is audio studios (even though I've been teaching for a few years now). So in that world I don't do any of the product creation, I just make sure that every thing is working properly. If something doesn't sound right I spring into action and I tend to get extremely tunnel visioned and border on obsessed. It's great for work, but I am wondering if that mentallity isn't part of what creates this invisible barrier between what I consider to be good tone and crap. I mean the first thing I do when the sound isn't there is start thinking about how to get there and I end up putting the guitar down and start digging into whatever it is that I'm plugged into or start looking for pickups or something for the guitar. So I am just wondering how many other tech based people on here have similar issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Wein Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 I used to be overly obsessed with gear and "toanz" to the expense of my playing...I've spent the last couple of years overhauling my technique and just playing more different kinds of music in an effort to get past that and it has really helped. I think that if we spent more time playing guitar and less time buying stuff we'd all be better players for it. It sounds stupidly simple but it gets too easy to be immersed in the online world of "whats new" and crystal lettuce and junk like that. Play more and you'll play (and sound) better regardless of the gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Elias Graves Posted October 4, 2011 Members Share Posted October 4, 2011 I have a similar job and I do have to dive into very minor details to make things work. I think that's part of my nature and, yes, I do slip into that now and again. I have a few things that I remind myself of to combat it. "Tone" is a very small part of your sound. Technique trumps tone every time. Case in point: There's a long thread at TGP debating whether Harrison was using a Gibson or a Fender or a Gretsch or an Epi on a given track. If a bunch of self pronounced toneheads can't even pick an LP from a Strat on a recording, do you honestly think an average listener can? Tone is either good or bad. Subleties matter very little. Every time I see a band at a bar, I listen for the audience reactions. When the guitarist gets a reaction, it's either because he sucks or he's great. I seldom hear, "His tone sucks, but he has chops." Again, technique trumps tone. When the band starts playing, that extra 1% of harmonics you were so proud of getting by the 50s wiring scheme just went out the window. Finally, some stuff I picked up from uncle Jack. Upon me saying "All I have is this Junior." He replied "Son, you're already ahead of the gear I had for a good part of my professional career. If you can't sound good with a Les Paul Jr and a Fender amp, it's time to get a job at the hardware store." When I asked him why he switched from 1x12 combos to 1x15 head/cab setups, I expected some long answer about extended bass response or some nonsense. His answer? "They were louder." That's it, just louder. So, yeah, I have to constantly scold myself for being a tweaker and get back to work on technique. Since I've been working with uncle Jack, my gear hasn't changed much, but my "tone" is 100 times better than it was. Holding the pick right, attacking the strings properly at the right time, losing my left hand death grip and so on have improved my tone more than all the gear in the world. EG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members honeyiscool Posted October 4, 2011 Members Share Posted October 4, 2011 I don't know. I can't play my usual rhythm guitar technique if the EQ is completely off because it will sound like crap thanks to the various techniques I use. I don't really do the power chord thing so I need something that can make the highs sound decent. Leads, I can pretty much use any pickup and distortion since there's not much you can't control with a few knob twists and varying your right hand. Lately, since I've been being placed on lead guitar pretty much exclusively, I haven't had to worry too much about tone, and I'm thankful for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Wein Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 When the band starts playing, that extra 1% of harmonics you were so proud of getting by the 50s wiring scheme just went out the window. EG Thats something that never gets mentioned in a guitar forum. Also, after your amp is mic'd and run through the house PA in a bigger venue it's even worse. I'm not saying "don't bother" but realize that all of the fancy {censored} we buy and use onstage is really for our own enjoyment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members metallica_00 Posted October 4, 2011 Members Share Posted October 4, 2011 I absolutely need my tone/setup to play my best. If the sustain isn't there, or the top end is harsh, or the lows are muddy, it will constrict what I can/want to do since the result will be unpleasing to listen to. I might avoid the high bend, or have to change my chord voicing to avoid mud on the lower strings. Im all for optimizing the setup to let me do what I want to do. That said, it takes tweaking to get there, and time. But nowadays I dont really spend any time dialing in my rig. It's pretty much good to go. I frankly think the biggest challenge is constant gear turnover. It takes time to adapt and get used to stuff. If you're always flipping, you're never really getting to know the guitar/amp/pedal and consequentially never dialing it in to the extent it can be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Elias Graves Posted October 4, 2011 Members Share Posted October 4, 2011 Thats something that never gets mentioned in a guitar forum. Also, after your amp is mic'd and run through the house PA in a bigger venue it's even worse. I'm not saying "don't bother" but realize that all of the fancy {censored} we buy and use onstage is really for our own enjoyment. Exactly. I mean, you obviously need to sound good, but that can be acheived with relaively pedestrian tools. The band I saw the other day consisted of a squier tele and a 2x12 Fender Frontman amp along with the other guy playing a low end Ibby LP style and a Line 6 rig. They Sounded fine. We need to get the basics of good sound down, but after that, we're kinda being wanky nerds. NOBODY but another guitar nerd cares what friggin pots you installed. EG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Doctor Morbius Posted October 4, 2011 Members Share Posted October 4, 2011 I've definitely had OCD over teh toanz and teh gearz. Fortunately, now that I have some decent equipment (OK, we're talking about guitars and amps here ) I can concentrate on actually learning how to become a better player. Mind you, I still get GAS and I still want to do a few modifications/projects, but overall things are much more under control now. I don't think the pursuit of tone or GAS urges will ever go away, but it's much less of a priority. The days of constantly buying and flipping gear are behind me. At least for the time being. There's a long thread at TGP debating whether Harrison was using a Gibson or a Fender or a Gretsch or an Epi on a given track. If a bunch of self pronounced toneheads can't even pick an LP from a Strat on a recording, do you honestly think an average listener can? No joke. Talk about obsessive compulsive behavior. There are guys on there that will argue page after page on the slightest minutia when it comes to tone, even down to the kind of tremolo springs used. Cratz2 told me he read a thread over there where some guy claimed his hand would cramp up when he used a steel trem block on his Strat, but when he switched to a brass block his hand no longer cramped. That's some {censored}ed up {censored}! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bsman Posted October 4, 2011 Members Share Posted October 4, 2011 I mostly play acoustic, so to me, tone is REALLY in the fingers. Interestingly, when I do play electric, I frequently leave my amp on the same setting for weeks at a time. I wouldn't say I'm tone-obsessed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Wein Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Exactly. I mean, you obviously need to sound good, but that can be acheived with relaively pedestrian tools. The band I saw the other day consisted of a squier tele and a 2x12 Fender Frontman amp along with the other guy playing a low end Ibby LP style and a Line 6 rig. They Sounded fine. We need to get the basics of good sound down, but after that, we're kinda being wanky nerds. NOBODY but another guitar nerd cares what friggin pots you installed. EG You'll hear the difference between my Suhr tele and my Squier CV tele if I play them back to back and if you appreciate nice instruments you'll hear a difference but I can make the squier sound good enough in a big room that no one will care. I posted this last week at my place: http://markweinguitarlessons.com/forums/showthread.php?30755-Paul-Pigat-on-leaving-the-valuable-guitars-at-home-and-touring-with-newer-gear...&highlight=pigat - it cracks me up because when we had Paul Pigat in the studio at NAMM he was there with his Gretsch guitar that they gave him since he's an endorser but he told me that when he was on the road with Jakob Dylan he did the whole tour with the CV tele in the article. Why bring a 50's Gibson on the road to be destroyed by baggage handlers and played through crappy backline amps (although when he was here he used my Silverface Deluxe every night I wasn't using it) when he can sound good on a $350 guitar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Floyd Rosenbomb Posted October 4, 2011 Members Share Posted October 4, 2011 It is an interesting point, I have been there and I'm sure I keep going back on occasion. I have noticed over time though that I try to work with the tone that I have. It has shown me that there is truth to the saying that, it's in the fingers. I've been really impressed with how adjusting pressure at the finger tips on the strings and with the attack, or lack there of, with the pick can change things up. Also, where I pick in relation to the pickups. Just things that I work with.All that said, some pickups/ amps are simply over the line and I will swap them if I feel it's really not going anywhere. It is so beautiful when you are happy with your amp and your guitar and you can just play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Will Chen Posted October 4, 2011 Members Share Posted October 4, 2011 Ultimately I think there are 2 camps when it comes to tone. On the one hand you have guys who really don't care much as long as things are in the general vicinity of what they consider sounding good. These guys can typically make some minor adjustments at the guitar and with their technique to compensate and all is good. On the other hand you have guys for which the sound is the experience rather than performing or writing music. For these guys, obsession over every little detail substitutes for practice with the goal of attaining an aural idea in their head. For me personally its a balancing act. I love to audition and mess with new gear because its fun. But, gotta keep that in check and remember to run modes and chord inversions to keep the technique up as well. I did learn early on though to play through bad tone, though I must admit it does affect me still to some degree. When you're getting paid to entertain and you hit a foreign room which is going to sound like hell no matter what, you gotta just turn off the tonal obsession and get to business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Wein Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 When you're getting paid to entertain and you hit a foreign room which is going to sound like hell no matter what, you gotta just turn off the tonal obsession and get to business. This was a hard thing for me to deal with when I was younger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Doctor Morbius Posted October 4, 2011 Members Share Posted October 4, 2011 ... and you hit a foreign room which is going to sound like hell no matter what, you gotta just turn off the tonal obsession and get to business.For me that's every room! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Wein Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 For me that's every room! How about when there is NO room? These are the last three gigs I've played: September 17th September 25th October 1st Outdoors is the hardest for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BeanoBoy Posted October 4, 2011 Members Share Posted October 4, 2011 This was a hard thing for me to deal with when I was younger. That was the hardest for me deal with as well. Happened a lot and you just have to pretend your tone is happening and earn your money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tantamo Posted October 4, 2011 Members Share Posted October 4, 2011 Yeah, and a subaru will get you to the grocery store just as well as a ferrari. But one is more fun to drive! We all buy this garbage because we like buying it. I'll admit I like buying and getting stuff in the mail more than I like playing. When I was younger I had all the passion and no money and now it's the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cratz2 Posted October 5, 2011 Members Share Posted October 5, 2011 I agree with this at least 99%. I'm a child of the 80s... With gain... as long as I have either some delay or reverb or both, I can work within a pretty big range of tonal goodness. For clean tones... if it's not pretty big and bold and doesn't have drippy reverb going on, I feel I really can't get very close to my tone and sometimes if I can't get close to 'my tone', then I almost can't really play like me. I have a little intro that I wrote maybe 20 years ago that's sort of flamenco and sort of surfy. A simple little thing, but a couple weeks ago, I was checking out one of those Epiphone LPs with the EMG HZs and a Floyd through a Spider Valve. For gain stuff, I was unbelievably impressed. For clean tones it was... uh... kinda terrible. I just couldn't get it dialed in. I absolutely need my tone/setup to play my best. If the sustain isn't there, or the top end is harsh, or the lows are muddy, it will constrict what I can/want to do since the result will be unpleasing to listen to. I might avoid the high bend, or have to change my chord voicing to avoid mud on the lower strings. Im all for optimizing the setup to let me do what I want to do. That said, it takes tweaking to get there, and time. But nowadays I dont really spend any time dialing in my rig. It's pretty much good to go. I frankly think the biggest challenge is constant gear turnover. It takes time to adapt and get used to stuff. If you're always flipping, you're never really getting to know the guitar/amp/pedal and consequentially never dialing it in to the extent it can be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cratz2 Posted October 5, 2011 Members Share Posted October 5, 2011 When the band starts playing, that extra 1% of harmonics you were so proud of getting by the 50s wiring scheme just went out the window. Having said what I just said in the previous post, I completely agree with this as well. The only paying non-jazz gigs I've ever played were played with a Kramer Beretta through a solid state Ampeg bass amp. Not even remotely on par with my partscaster with meticulously selected parts, handwound Duncan Antiquites pickups, Dr Z amp, boutique dirt and reverb pedals, but in reality, I did more with the Kramer and the Ampeg. On the other hand, I'm a big believer in small things making an actual, realistic difference if only because some gear inspires you or encourages you to play a bit differently or take more chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Burgess Posted October 5, 2011 Members Share Posted October 5, 2011 I had an epiphany about tone trying to dial in a 100W Marshall half-stack a few years back... I just couldn't dial the beast in to my liking no matter what I did. The room was too small to just dime everything (most Marshalls will sound pretty good that way but it's freakin' loud) so I finally just went with as best as I could get it and got on with the rehearsal. I had been doing a lot of playing with my electrics unplugged at that time so I was confident I could play the rig that way and away we went. As the rehearsal progressed I came to realize that what I thought didn't sound good before, in the context of the full band didn't sound half bad. We recorded the rehearsal just as we always did and when I listened to the playbacks later I had realized that the amp actually sounded pretty damned good! I realized that in the context of a full band mix it really is way more important what you play and how you execute than any subtle nuances in tone that you're trying to realize. Playing it with conviction and solid chops goes a lot farther than many players will ever understand. These days, I'm pretty confident I can make any decent rig sing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fretmonster Posted October 5, 2011 Members Share Posted October 5, 2011 I'm another guy that has to get my tone fix. I think that may be the only reason I play the guitar. I mean sure I keep trying to improve my skillz but to what end? I started playing when I was 47 years old (played a little as a kid but quit entirely for thirty years). It's a hobby I enjoy and I do believe it keeps me out of trouble as well. But I gave up on those rock and roll dreams a long time ago. Although I enjoy jamming with other players, almost all of my public playing has been solo or in the service of my daughter (vocalist). But back to the tone thing - sometimes I actually find that I screw up a tune just because I'm diggin the tone too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vibroluxman Posted October 5, 2011 Members Share Posted October 5, 2011 I like my toys... but I also realize I sound exactly the same no matter what instrument or amp I'm using as long as both of them are of some build quality to begin with - which thankfully is most stuff today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members docjeffrey Posted October 5, 2011 Members Share Posted October 5, 2011 Thats something that never gets mentioned in a guitar forum. Also, after your amp is mic'd and run through the house PA in a bigger venue it's even worse. I'm not saying "don't bother" but realize that all of the fancy {censored} we buy and use onstage is really for our own enjoyment. For me, that is really important though. I'm not out to impress anyone with my tone and playing EXCEPT for me. I love playing and I love dialing in great tones in my general area of the stage. I then have to trust the sound operator to do his/her best at translating that to the listeners. But I play my best when I'm dialed in with my tone and I can hear the vocalists and key off of them. I love when Mike, one of our backup singers, looks over at me and smiles when I do something unexpected but cool:-). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Wein Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 For me, that is really important though. I'm not out to impress anyone with my tone and playing EXCEPT for me. I love playing and I love dialing in great tones in my general area of the stage. I then have to trust the sound operator to do his/her best at translating that to the listeners. But I play my best when I'm dialed in with my tone and I can hear the vocalists and key off of them. I love when Mike, one of our backup singers, looks over at me and smiles when I do something unexpected but cool:-). Thats the thing. Do I need all of the crazy expensive stuff to do my $100 bar gig or even the high dollar weddings? Nope. Nobody's paying me for my sound, they are paying me to play well and part of being comfortable enough to play well for me is things sounding a certain way. I just can't let that rule my world or I'm in trouble when things don't go my way, like this past weekend where we didn't get a soundcheck on a gig where I was outdoors with a new guitar and an amp I hadn't gigged with more than once or twice in the last few years....still had to get through the night. It all sounded fine but it was so different that it was distracting. I'll be getting my favorite amp fixed ASAP though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members scuzzo Posted October 5, 2011 Members Share Posted October 5, 2011 I love to get in and twiddle knobs and sliders and bounce delays and try different fx.. and all that silly stuff.. but i only sit down to play an hour or less every other day.. so all that tweak time comes at the expense of doing something musical creative or what ever with the guitar.. i think that the player is the most important var in tone equation.. it very easy to get bogged down in all the silly guitar doo dads.. but if you go in thinking "im here to do something creative or fun" rather then Im trying to get the perfect Fender black face with a closed back and just a hint of verb.. with a dash of transparent OD".. then it may be a more effective process,, i think of it as i would painting.. tones are colors,amps, pedals.. noise makers.. the guitar my be a brush... the artist. or hack is the is the most important part of the process.. although.. you need to know your equipment.. and what all those silly buttons.. sliders.. knobs. do.but most often stuff just gets in the way.. some times you get spoiled for choices.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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