CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 13, 2009 CMS Author Share Posted February 13, 2009 Yes I saw people over the poverty line on the government programs. The food stamps, welfare, and government food commodity hand outs. In all fairness the poverty line isn't a very realistic measure of poverty, and it would really need to be adjusted for local economic conditions. You can possibly live in relative comfort, at just above the PL in some rural areas, and not be able to even pay rent alone in some cities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J. Posted February 13, 2009 Members Share Posted February 13, 2009 If she really has/had a bad back, how did she manage to carry around this load? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brother Mango Posted February 13, 2009 Members Share Posted February 13, 2009 I know your background, and you mom clearly wasn't one of those folks, but I've met at least a half a dozen people who have done so. It's far from a "myth". I've come across plenty of welfare recipients and it's far more complicated than what you describe. My mother wasn't a rarity. Neither was she typical. There are a lot of people with their own story. I knew a nurse who got a divorce and lost her job around the same time. Her family was in South Carolina. She wound up on welfare in Illinois. As soon as she got on her feet, she and her 1 daughter were gone! She fit the typical 2-yr average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators ThudMaker Posted February 13, 2009 Moderators Share Posted February 13, 2009 I know your background, and you mom clearly wasn't one of those folks, but I've met at least a half a dozen people who have done so. It's far from a "myth".That was just a myth created by Ronald Reagan. What a great guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members King Kashue Posted February 13, 2009 Members Share Posted February 13, 2009 Poor purchasing choices are apparently a requirement for admission to the welfare state, but I'm curious how much these people might have actually been able to gross in a year. Any guess (I'm assuming you weren't privvy to W-2's....) on that? No, I didn't have any tax numbers or anything. I had several of them admit it openly though, so I've little doubt of their motivations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 13, 2009 CMS Author Share Posted February 13, 2009 That's factually incorrect. That feeds into another myth. In fact, I find it quite outrageous.During the height of the anti-welfare ranting in the 80s, the public wanted to believe the image painted by the politicians: welfare recipients are slothful, conniving, baby-makers who are sucking the blood out of the rest of us.No.People who knew, and had facts, tried to explain that welfare recipients are in that condition for an average of 2 years. These are people who fall on their ass and have little other recourse.Many welfare recipients are ashamed of their situation, and turn to it when when they don't even have any pride left.10 years ago I had to go to a welfare office and get foodstamps. It was one of the most difficult things I've ever done in life ... accept that "things have gotten this bad." I took foodstamps for about 4 months and ditched that as soon as I could.Sure, there are people who'll milk and manipulate the system but they've got other problems. They've got problems that would arguably make them difficult employees that would demand a lot of coaching and attention. They aren't people who should be discarded, but they aren't served by describing them as lazy & conniving. You're taking my post out of the context to which I was addressing. I was addressing Renfield, and his portrayal of Suleman as the conniving system-manipulator 'welfare mom'. I wasn't commenting on welfare in general or making any other generalization, only making the point that Suleman doesn't fit the type of person Renfield thought she was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SA Rios Posted February 13, 2009 Members Share Posted February 13, 2009 If she really has/had a bad back, how did she manage to carry around this load? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brother Mango Posted February 13, 2009 Members Share Posted February 13, 2009 I knew people that wouldn't get married cause "it would cut there check down" and yet they had several kids 5 or 6 was usually the average number. This points to a peculiar way that welfare works/worked: Suppose a couple gets married. The check is cut, and the medical card may completely go away. But the income and benefits inside the marriage won't make up for it. A bad situation can be made worse by getting married. The movie Claudine takes a peek into this. The situation is complicated. It's not as straightforward as we'd like to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members King Kashue Posted February 13, 2009 Members Share Posted February 13, 2009 I've come across plenty of welfare recipients and it's far more complicated than what you describe. I mentioned roughly six families. I didn't say it was typical of everyone. However, if this was such a myth, how could I have met so many? And as for "far more complicated", no it really wasn't with these people (I know this is a touchy subject for you, but you don't know the people I'm talking about, how can you possibly suggest I'm not describing the situation correctly?). I had several of those families openly state they skimped on stuff for the kids so they could buy cool stuff for themselves...It wasn't complicated in the slightest. You keep saying "those folks have something else going on" if they're doing that...Yeah, human greed. It's not exclusive to welfare recipients, and no one is suggesting that. But the idea that people gaming the welfare/disability system is a 1 in 10,000 thing is just as much a myth as every other recipient doing it...Your myth is just as unsupportable as the one you decry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brother Mango Posted February 13, 2009 Members Share Posted February 13, 2009 You're taking my post out of the context to which I was addressing. I was addressing Renfield, and his portrayal of Suleman as the conniving system-manipulator 'welfare mom'. I wasn't commenting on welfare in general or making any other generalization, only making the point that Suleman doesn't fit the type of person Renfield thought she was. Didn't you comment that most welfare moms try to avoid working and school? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brother Mango Posted February 13, 2009 Members Share Posted February 13, 2009 She doesn't fit the profile, so to speak. She's worked, really hard in fact. She's gone to school. That's stuff welfare moms go out of their way to avoid. There's a point of diminishing returns in quality of life...welfare moms know just how many rugrats to pop to get enough free money to support themselves without having to overexert to keeps the kids breathing. She's way past that threshold. This is to the point of overwhelming any *normal* couple (that 17 and counting family are truly insane) plus extended family, let alone a single mother.And she will never see the far side of comfortable, let alone rich.No, she's just mentally ill and allowed to indulge it. Wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 13, 2009 CMS Author Share Posted February 13, 2009 I've come across plenty of welfare recipients and it's far more complicated than what you describe.My mother wasn't a rarity. Neither was she typical. There are a lot of people with their own story.I knew a nurse who got a divorce and lost her job around the same time. Her family was in South Carolina. She wound up on welfare in Illinois. As soon as she got on her feet, she and her 1 daughter were gone! She fit the typical 2-yr average. Did anyone in this thread imply that all welfare recipients are system-manipulators? I can't help feeling that you're actively seeking an argument where none exists. The fact is that there ARE people who will manipulate the system. Renfield thought Suleman was one of them. I said she isn't. That's all that was said here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RedsFan75 Posted February 13, 2009 Members Share Posted February 13, 2009 Sure, there are people who'll milk and manipulate the system but they've got other problems. They've got problems that would arguably make them difficult employees that would demand a lot of coaching and attention. They aren't people who should be discarded, but they aren't served by describing them as lazy & conniving. These are the people I was most familiar with. They knew how to milk the system, they knew what to say and how to say it. I was told if I had come to them before I went in to that office I'd have never had to work again, they would have helped me, and personally I was appalled! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 13, 2009 CMS Author Share Posted February 13, 2009 Oh here we go. Again, CONTEXT. I was addressing Renfield's claim about Suleman. It was more expedient to type "welfare mom" than "mothers who are on welfare and manipulate the system by having lots of babies so as to garner a larger benefit check". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brother Mango Posted February 13, 2009 Members Share Posted February 13, 2009 I mentioned roughly six families. I didn't say it was typical of everyone.However, if this was such a myth, how could I have met so many?And as for "far more complicated", no it really wasn't with these people (I know this is a touchy subject for you, but you don't know the people I'm talking about, how can you possibly suggest I'm not describing the situation correctly?). I had several of those families openly state they skimped on stuff for the kids so they could buy cool stuff for themselves...It wasn't complicated in the slightest.You keep saying "those folks have something else going on" if they're doing that...Yeah, human greed. It's not exclusive to welfare recipients, and no one is suggesting that.But the idea that people gaming the welfare/disability system is a 1 in 10,000 thing is just as much a myth as every other recipient doing it...Your myth is just as unsupportable as the one you decry. Traits of families on AFDC (1) Race--------------White 38.8%Black 37.2Hispanic 17.8Asian 2.8Other 3.4 Time on AFDC---------------------------Less than 7 months 19.0%7 to 12 months 15.2One to two years 19.3Two to five years 26.9Over five years 19.6 Number of children-------------------One 43.2%Two 30.7Three 15.8Four or more 10.3 Age of Mother------------------Teenager 7.6%20 - 29 47.930 - 39 32.740 or older 11.8 Status of Father 1973 1992-------------------------------------Divorced or separated 46.5% 28.6Deceased 5.0 1.6Unemployed or Disabled 14.3 9.0Not married to mother 31.5 55.3Other or Unknown 2.7 5.5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brother Mango Posted February 13, 2009 Members Share Posted February 13, 2009 Oh here we go. Again, CONTEXT. I was addressing Renfield's claim about Suleman. It was more expedient to type "welfare mom" than "mothers who are on welfare and manipulate the system by having lots of babies so as to garner a larger benefit check". I understand that you were replying to Renfield. I understand that you were trying to paint a more accurate picture of Suleman, and I agree with you there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FailBoatCaptn Posted February 13, 2009 Members Share Posted February 13, 2009 I NEED A NEEDLE AND THREAD - STAT!!!!i'm sweing my knees together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted February 13, 2009 Moderators Share Posted February 13, 2009 You guys talking about the clown car vagina do realize that in multiple births, such as this one, the babies are taken out by the Docs via surgical procedure. They don't get delivered by the Mom pushing the train. Yeah, but that image isn't nearly as much fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brother Mango Posted February 13, 2009 Members Share Posted February 13, 2009 My concern is that it's titillating to focus on the weird and extreme. The danger, however, is in allowing that perverse entertainment to shape policy and opinions about the vast majority that aren't so entertaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators ThudMaker Posted February 13, 2009 Moderators Share Posted February 13, 2009 Traits of families on AFDC (1)Race-------------- Your stats don't provide any evidence to disprove gaming on the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brother Mango Posted February 13, 2009 Members Share Posted February 13, 2009 Ok!I nominate the following to be banned for the rest of 2009: J. for posting that disturbing photo.Failboatcaptain and SA Rios for re-posting that disturbing photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brother Mango Posted February 13, 2009 Members Share Posted February 13, 2009 Your stats don't provide any evidence to disprove gaming on the system. Right. I failed horribly. Give me my F for the day. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ec437 Posted February 13, 2009 Members Share Posted February 13, 2009 If she really has/had a bad back, how did she manage to carry around this load? I wonder if she's ever gotten laid.And that is disgusting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hawkhuff Posted February 13, 2009 Members Share Posted February 13, 2009 My wife deals with welfare recipients all the time in her pediatric home care business and there are many unwed mothers who are doing everything they can to get ahead; some are working toward their GED while others are in college and some are in trade schools. However, there are far and away more who are gaming the system and have no interest whatsoever in getting ahead. My wife's organization is often the target of frivilous lawsuits because some welfare moms will look for ways to blame them for some perceived infraction. Much of it is greed and laziness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted February 13, 2009 Moderators Share Posted February 13, 2009 What KK said, plus I'll add this....When I was younger, I grew up in an area that was very heavy on people getting government assistance. HATED going to town around the first of the month.The ability of people to milk the system was very keenly lamented in the country song, "Welfare Cadillac" I knew people that wouldn't get married cause "it would cut there check down" and yet they had several kids 5 or 6 was usually the average number. I also knew people that had a disability for their back, so it really colored my views such that when I started having back trouble I really struggled with it, cause I saw them out playing basketball and other activities, and I didn't want to be lumped in with the people who were claiming back trouble yet still behaving like that. Yes I saw people over the poverty line on the government programs. The food stamps, welfare, and government food commodity hand outs. FWIW, I too have occasional back trouble, and have a 10% disability from the VA. Activities such as playing basketball and volleyball actually help, and help keep it from getting worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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