Members jplanet Posted June 8, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 8, 2011 Originally Posted by TIMKEYS It would seem that keyboard players are pretty hard to find. so then tend to be picky on what they do. I think you summed it up right there! I wish I was a better all-round keyboardist, as I now realize there isn't as much competition out there for paying jobs...Ironically, it was my first choice of instrument to play when I was little, but keyboards weren't as affordable back then as they are now, so I'm a late started - I wouldn't have the chops necessary to do what these paying gigs call for... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIMKEYS Posted June 8, 2011 Members Share Posted June 8, 2011 Originally Posted by jplanet I think you summed it up right there! I wish I was a better all-round keyboardist, as I now realize there isn't as much competition out there for paying jobs...Ironically, it was my first choice of instrument to play when I was little, but keyboards weren't as affordable back then as they are now, so I'm a late started - I wouldn't have the chops necessary to do what these paying gigs call for... Yea i am not a piano bar guy either ..... I am just a band guy thats more of a foundation player than hot rod solo guy. If you can do that , and have good timing and know how not to walk on a bass player and cut up the band ,and can pick up things pretty fast , you can get a pretty decent seat in a band pretty easy. Most of the young guys are more sound makers than really being players. That itself is a skill set ,, but bands tend to want guys who are more in sync with the rhythm section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIMKEYS Posted June 8, 2011 Members Share Posted June 8, 2011 Originally Posted by troyguitar Keyboard players tend to care more about money than music, perhaps because it's so much easier for them to make money at it than guitarists. I'd be looking for college students who are good piano players but don't play in bands and don't have pro keyboard rigs. They won't be expecting to make a pile of money because they aren't really 'in the game' as it were. Unfortunately those people aren't going to answer your ad because they aren't looking for gigs, you will have to seek them out yourself. Playing in bands and playing classical piano are two different kinds of skills. The classical guys are more suited for the piano bar gigs. They read music well and tend to have a style that works best in stand alone settings or with just bass and drums in a jazz trio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members troyguitar Posted June 8, 2011 Members Share Posted June 8, 2011 Originally Posted by TIMKEYS Playing in bands and playing classical piano are two different kinds of skills. The classical guys are more suited for the piano bar gigs. They read music well and tend to have a style that works best in stand alone settings or with just bass and drums in a jazz trio. Well I sit down with my keyboard player and we score out all of his parts on sheet music to make it just like playing classical for him. And because he grew up playing classical, even the hardest parts we have are no sweat. He plays the stuff better than we do most of the time, classical piano standards are just so much higher than rock guitar it's ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIMKEYS Posted June 8, 2011 Members Share Posted June 8, 2011 Originally Posted by troyguitar Well I sit down with my keyboard player and we score out all of his parts on sheet music to make it just like playing classical for him. And because he grew up playing classical, even the hardest parts we have are no sweat. He plays the stuff better than we do most of the time, classical piano standards are just so much higher than rock guitar it's ridiculous. I never said they werent... but its a different style. Rock keys tend to be more right hand driven from my perspective. I have a bass player to deal with and a couple guitar players. A good classical piano player , with an ear can go get a piano bar gig. Make themselves a couple hundred plus for the gig,, and then get a hundred or more in tip,, ,and do that 5 nights a week without moving any gear. They can get a house gig. Why would they wanna screw around with a band? Hell many places will just put them on salary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jplanet Posted June 8, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 8, 2011 Originally Posted by TIMKEYS I never said they werent... but its a different style. Rock keys tend to be more right hand driven from my perspective. I have a bass player to deal with and a couple guitar players. A good classical piano player , with an ear can go get a piano bar gig. Make themselves a couple hundred plus for the gig,, and then get a hundred or more in tip,, ,and do that 5 nights a week without moving any gear. They can get a house gig. Why would they wanna screw around with a band? Hell many places will just put them on salary. The only reason anyone would ever want to "screw around with a band" is because they have something to say musically. Unfortunately, I think that especially classically-trained musicians are never encouraged to develop their own ideas, so they have no desire for a creative outlet. I would go insane without a means of creative expression - in a way, I am happier programming websites for a living rather than doing music as a job - I don't think I would ever want to experience making music as "just a job"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIMKEYS Posted June 8, 2011 Members Share Posted June 8, 2011 Originally Posted by jplanet The only reason anyone would ever want to "screw around with a band" is because they have something to say musically. Unfortunately, I think that especially classically-trained musicians are never encouraged to develop their own ideas, so they have no desire for a creative outlet. I would go insane without a means of creative expression - in a way, I am happier programming websites for a living rather than doing music as a job - I don't think I would ever want to experience making music as "just a job"... hmm yea they are ,, its called Jazz. Its a better paying gig than a rock band too. Some guys in bands are just players too. I play for a singer songwriter. As a band we dont create anything. we get handed a finished CD and we take it home and hit the stuff live on stage. The CDS are done in a studio with the session guys. We are the guys that play the gigs. Works great for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jplanet Posted June 8, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 8, 2011 Tim, I'm just expressing my own experience. We are obviously two very different musicians, the more variety in the world, the better! And, of course classical players who also studied jazz know how to develop their own ideas...But not all classical players study jazz. Extremely studious players who go to conservatory have to choose a classical or jazz path early on - more jazz players dabble with classical, but the very serious classical players rarely stray from that path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIMKEYS Posted June 8, 2011 Members Share Posted June 8, 2011 Originally Posted by jplanet Tim, I'm just expressing my own experience. We are obviously two very different musicians, the more variety in the world, the better! And, of course classical players who also studied jazz know how to develop their own ideas...But not all classical players study jazz. Extremely studious players who go to conservatory have to choose a classical or jazz path early on - more jazz players dabble with classical, but the very serious classical players rarely stray from that path. Whatever ,, doesnt make any difference to me. I am not looking for a keyboard player. good luck in your search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members troyguitar Posted June 8, 2011 Members Share Posted June 8, 2011 Originally Posted by TIMKEYS A good classical piano player , with an ear can go get a piano bar gig. Make themselves a couple hundred plus for the gig,, and then get a hundred or more in tip,, ,and do that 5 nights a week without moving any gear. They can get a house gig. Why would they wanna screw around with a band? Hell many places will just put them on salary. Maybe they like the music? Why would anyone "screw around with a band" when they can make more money by going to law school? Sometimes I wonder about people. If I cared more about money than what I was playing, I wouldn't play anything at all. I'd just get a 2nd job - NOT as a musician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted June 8, 2011 Members Share Posted June 8, 2011 Originally Posted by troyguitar If I cared more about money than what I was playing, I wouldn't play anything at all. I'd just get a 2nd job - NOT as a musician. I don't know of any 2nd jobs---not any that I'M qualified to do, anyway---that pay more money than I can make playing music part time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jplanet Posted June 8, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 8, 2011 Originally Posted by troyguitar Maybe they like the music? Why would anyone "screw around with a band" when they can make more money by going to law school? Sometimes I wonder about people. If I cared more about money than what I was playing, I wouldn't play anything at all. I'd just get a 2nd job - NOT as a musician. What troyguitar said here applies for me 100%. I can bill $120/hour as a web programmer - music, to me, was never a means to make money, but a passion. Note that the last post where I mentioned "I want somebody who has something to say musically" left this thread dead for a while - LOL - that's the whole thing, right there. I have friends who do the whole wedding band thing - they are completely baffled as to why I would spend time and money trying to make an original band work, when it's so hard to do. Even the most successful original bands are suffering as the music business is in turmoil with piracy and fewer venues to play. It's something that can't be understood unless you're the creative type. For me, music will haunt me every minute of the day until I've sat down and written it into a song...If I didn't have an outlet for it, I would explode... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted June 8, 2011 Members Share Posted June 8, 2011 Originally Posted by jplanet What troyguitar said here applies for me 100%. I can bill $120/hour as a web programmer - music, to me, was never a means to make money, but a passion. Sure. But Troy also mentioned it in regards to a 2nd job. How many people can bill $120 for a 2nd job? 1st off, you bill that much for your 2nd job and it probably should be your 1st job. And if you're billing that much at your 1st job you probably don't NEED a 2nd job. But for those people who DO need a 2nd job? Bringing home even $80 or $100 a night playing music ain't a bad one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jplanet Posted June 8, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 8, 2011 Originally Posted by guido61 Sure. But Troy also mentioned it in regards to a 2nd job. How many people can bill $120 for a 2nd job? 1st off, you bill that much for your 2nd job and it probably should be your 1st job. And if you're billing that much at your 1st job you probably don't NEED a 2nd job. But for those people who DO need a 2nd job? Bringing home even $80 or $100 a night playing music ain't a bad one... Absolutely, I agree! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members troyguitar Posted June 8, 2011 Members Share Posted June 8, 2011 And those people won't be looking to play in any original band ever so it's rather irrelevant to the OP situation.Original bands need to be considered either hobbies or, if you're particularly driven, pathways to full-on careers. They're not going to be side income. You're either not making much if any money or you're on tour/in studio/rehearsing every day and don't have a 'real' job - or both!Perhaps I should have written 'another job' instead of '2nd job' as I did not mean to imply McDonald's or whatever. I meant, for example, take the same time and effort put into learning music into learning welding and you'll make a hell of a lot more money than some weekend cover band. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted June 8, 2011 Members Share Posted June 8, 2011 Originally Posted by troyguitar And those people won't be looking to play in any original band ever so it's rather irrelevant to the OP situation. Original bands need to be considered either hobbies or, if you're particularly driven, pathways to full-on careers. They're not going to be side income. You're either not making much if any money or you're on tour/in studio/rehearsing every day and don't have a 'real' job - or both! Perhaps I should have written 'another job' instead of '2nd job' as I did not mean to imply McDonald's or whatever. I meant, for example, take the same time and effort put into learning music into learning welding and you'll make a hell of a lot more money than some weekend cover band. Agreed. Music isn't the best career choice unless you're just so driven to play music you can't do anything else, or you're one of those rare cats who is such an amazing player (with reading skills and all the rest) by age 18 that becoming a top studio musician seems obvious. (I've known a couple of guys that good in my lifetime. But only a couple. Who, BTW, went on to very good careers playing music.) But as a means for extra cash? Playing music is a nice skill to have, for sure. I've made at least as much money playing music on-the-side when I've needed it for that as my friends have done working 7-11 or dealing blackjack or doing landscaping or whatever other similar low-skill part-time jobs they've taken on. And I've had a hell-of-a-lot-more fun to boot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wardjames Posted June 9, 2011 Members Share Posted June 9, 2011 Originally Posted by troyguitar Why would anyone "screw around with a band" when they can make more money by going to law school? Because being a lawyer sucks...and law school sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jplanet Posted June 5, 2012 Author Members Share Posted June 5, 2012 Well, it's been a long time since I started this thread, and I am happy to report that we have the amazing fortune of finding a fantastic keyboardist, the incomparable David Silver. We have since been signed to a label, 10T Records, a new concept album on the way, played B.B. King's in NYC twice, and now have our first tour booked outside of the U.S. in Canada this Fall, and have been offered dates in Europe as well for next year.So, for those whose sentiment is "why screw around with a band?", hopefully there is a lesson here - take risks! Make art! Stick with it and reap rewards. Have something to say musically. See the potential in opportunities that present themselves. Or, just stick to an ordinary gig that guarantees a certain number of dollars per hour for reading a chart.Here's some footage of our keyboardist invited on stage to perform "Hoedown" with Keith Emerson during his last tour with Greg Lake in NYC: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted June 6, 2012 Members Share Posted June 6, 2012 Originally Posted by jplanet Well, it's been a long time since I started this thread, and I am happy to report that we have the amazing fortune of finding a fantastic keyboardist, the incomparable David Silver. We have since been signed to a label, 10T Records, a new concept album on the way, played B.B. King's in NYC twice, and now have our first tour booked outside of the U.S. in Canada this Fall, and have been offered dates in Europe as well for next year. So, for those whose sentiment is "why screw around with a band?", hopefully there is a lesson here - take risks! Make art! Stick with it and reap rewards. Have something to say musically. See the potential in opportunities that present themselves. Or, just stick to an ordinary gig that guarantees a certain number of dollars per hour for reading a chart. Here's some footage of our keyboardist invited on stage to perform "Hoedown" with Keith Emerson during his last tour with Greg Lake in NYC: Congrats! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIMKEYS Posted June 6, 2012 Members Share Posted June 6, 2012 cool beans. glad you found a guy that fits your needs. Sound like he was worth waiting for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted June 6, 2012 Members Share Posted June 6, 2012 HOLY CRAP. Yeah he's "good" like Michael Jordan was a "good" basketball player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jplanet Posted June 6, 2012 Author Members Share Posted June 6, 2012 Cool, thanks to all for the kind words!And, you know, if he was half as good on keyboards, he would still be a great addition to the band. He's got a great sense of humor, fantastic work ethic, and genuinely enjoys playing this music. He also composes brilliantly, and we look forward to featuring more of his writing on the next album. Now I can't imagine ever playing without him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members CliffordN Posted June 6, 2012 Members Share Posted June 6, 2012 In late, and certainly didn't read all of the above posts to see if anyone else added this, but...It seems to me that there are fewer kids taking piano lessons now, which means a smaller pool of players to choose from. Whereas, many youngsters still grab guitars early on... And, some of them really learn to play!The keyboard players I have met that can really play, can pick where they share that talent, and they do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Piano Whore Posted June 7, 2012 Members Share Posted June 7, 2012 My take on why more keyboard players aren't in bands: Because modern day digital keyboard technology doesn't pack the visceral "wallop", tone-wise, that a guitar, bass, or even a $10 harmonica played over the PA has. Guitar players, bass players, horn players, any real (vs digital) instrument players practically send themselves into orgasm just getting off on the sound of their axe, even poorly played. The digital stuff is getting much better, but still doesn't compare to the feel, presence, sound and response of electromechanical-B3s/Leslies/Yamaha CP70's/Rhodes etc. Or of course, immaculately mic'd Steinways. But of course noone nowadays is going too mess with 2000+lbs of keyboard rig and the logistics of moving and setup.Keyboard players have their rewards still, but their "jollies" come from their time and feel, how they accent (and can drive) the groove, how they orchestrate (and maybe, on rare occasions, the opportunity to construct a series of tones known as a "solo"). Not from "instant Nirvana" tone and sound. They can still do much more than play weedly-wee ear candy and icing pads and Journey ballad piano parts, but that is 90% of what bands want from them. So what's in it for us? Mostly money. Maybe free beer, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Piano Whore Posted June 7, 2012 Members Share Posted June 7, 2012 Originally Posted by TIMKEYS A good classical piano player , with an ear can go get a piano bar gig. Make themselves a couple hundred plus for the gig,, and then get a hundred or more in tip,, ,and do that 5 nights a week without moving any gear. They can get a house gig. Why would they wanna screw around with a band? Hell many places will just put them on salary. Tim, those days are LONG gone. Do you base that observation on any experience less than 20 years old? (Actually, more like 30). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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