Members Vito Corleone Posted June 7, 2012 Members Share Posted June 7, 2012 Originally Posted by Piano Whore Tim, those days are LONG gone. Do you base that observation on any experience less than 20 years old? (Actually, more like 30). Actually, more like 40.Tim has two experiences upon which he draws and upon which he believes all musical endeavors are related:1) he played in a Top 40 band that did a lot of big vocal and horn songs when he was in high school in the late 60s.2) he now backs a Americana/Country singer-songwriter in South Texas.Every comment he makes comes from having lived those two perspectives and having virtually no idea that anything else might, or might have ever, existed for anyone else. As he does more stuff (his current band is touring a bit and playing some bigger gigs, for example) his world view expands. But until he does it himself, he's pretty clueless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted June 7, 2012 Members Share Posted June 7, 2012 Originally Posted by Piano Whore Tim, those days are LONG gone. Do you base that observation on any experience less than 20 years old? (Actually, more like 30). Really?My landlord is a salaried piano bar player and has been for about 50 years or so; pretty well known around this area and is even in a book too.Long gone? Not really. Just not so many places to gig like that. But they exist. Come around this way and I'll introduce you to Freddie and take ya out to Jerry Green's, cool? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted June 7, 2012 Members Share Posted June 7, 2012 Originally Posted by Piano Whore Tim, those days are LONG gone. Do you base that observation on any experience less than 20 years old? (Actually, more like 30). Bob Ramsey does those kind of gigs around here. There's a name. He plays for the RiverBats baseball team and also sits in with countless bands.Sorry bro but, really? You want a few more names? I got em...You a good keys player? You got gigs but if you don't, why not move your ass down here. You'll gig. So no, those days aren't so long gone as you say. Just gotta go find the gigs.You a good reader? Play jazz piano? Jack Fry's will have you in 3 days a week for black tie dinner crowd.KY center for the arts books pianists too. Ramada Inn used to, as well as Fifth Quarter Steakhouse. All piano bar gigs here in this town. Just wondering where it is you live that doesn't have one single piano bar? Are we that behind the times here in the ville? Or maybe you're just not looking hard enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted June 7, 2012 Members Share Posted June 7, 2012 Originally Posted by Piano Whore My take on why more keyboard players aren't in bands: Because modern day digital keyboard technology doesn't pack the visceral "wallop", tone-wise, that a guitar, bass, or even a $10 harmonica played over the PA has. Guitar players, bass players, horn players, any real (vs digital) instrument players practically send themselves into orgasm just getting off on the sound of their axe, even poorly played. The digital stuff is getting much better, but still doesn't compare to the feel, presence, sound and response of electromechanical-B3s/Leslies/Yamaha CP70's/Rhodes etc. Or of course, immaculately mic'd Steinways. But of course noone nowadays is going too mess with 2000+lbs of keyboard rig and the logistics of moving and setup.Keyboard players have their rewards still, but their "jollies" come from their time and feel, how they accent (and can drive) the groove, how they orchestrate (and maybe, on rare occasions, the opportunity to construct a series of tones known as a "solo"). Not from "instant Nirvana" tone and sound. They can still do much more than play weedly-wee ear candy and icing pads and Journey ballad piano parts, but that is 90% of what bands want from them. So what's in it for us? Mostly money. Maybe free beer, too. The flip side, of course, is that there is more keyboard-centric music around today than ever. Top 40 music is played almost exclusively on keyboards and computers. Including most of the "guitar" parts. A young keyboard player wanting to be in a Top 40 band would be more essential than at any time in the history of playing Top 40. I played in Top 40 bands in the 80s and thought it was pretty cool that there was so much for keyboard players to do. Heck, today the best Top 40 bands would be one with 3 keyboard players and no bass or guitar players.But the irony is that so many live bands are still caught up in the "guitar/bass/drum" format that has existed since Elvis was first gigging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted June 7, 2012 Members Share Posted June 7, 2012 Originally Posted by wades_keys So no, those days aren't so long gone as you say. Just gotta go find the gigs. That's true for everything. There's always exceptions and always gigs and always markets if you're A) good enough B) willing to take your skills to where the demand is. But the truth is that the solo-piano gigs aren't nearly as available as they used to be. Not by a LARGE margin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted June 7, 2012 Members Share Posted June 7, 2012 Originally Posted by guido61 That's true for everything. There's always exceptions and always gigs and always markets if you're A) good enough B) willing to take your skills to where the demand is. But the truth is that the solo-piano gigs are nearly as available as they used to be. Not by a LARGE margin. Yeah that's true. The 70's was probably the heyday of the piano bar/lounge musician. Freddie has stories going back to the 1950's! Pretty amazing really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted June 7, 2012 Members Share Posted June 7, 2012 Originally Posted by guido61 The flip side, of course, is that there is more keyboard-centric music around today than ever. Arguably, including the 1980's new wave explosion.And more opportunity for even "one finger wonder" keyboardists to make their mark! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members CliffordN Posted June 7, 2012 Members Share Posted June 7, 2012 Keeping my mouth firmly closed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted June 7, 2012 Members Share Posted June 7, 2012 Originally Posted by wades_keys And more opportunity for even "one finger wonder" keyboardists to make their mark! Someone still has to do the programming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SeniorBlues Posted June 7, 2012 Members Share Posted June 7, 2012 Originally Posted by Piano Whore My take on why more keyboard players aren't in bands: Because modern day digital keyboard technology doesn't pack the visceral "wallop", tone-wise, that a guitar, bass, or even a $10 harmonica played over the PA has. moving and setup.Keyboard players have their rewards still, but their "jollies" come from their time and feel, how they accent (and can drive) the groove, Strongly agree with the second point, but not so much the first. The trick is to find a band where that 10% constitutes the bulk of their repertoire. I hope I've finally found it this time.To the first point . . . Our mutual friend Bob will tell you that I had serious problems trying to get my B3 up in the mix even with two 122s. That's mostly because I liked my 88800000 setting, but the volume wars were just starting in the early 70s and the stock 122s just weren't up to it.The great thing about modern boards for me isn't just that I can blow anybody out of the room with 500W RMS per channel, but I can do it with any patch and especially, in combination. I love playing multitymbrally. (nice word, huh?) Wish I'd had my current set up forty years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIMKEYS Posted June 7, 2012 Members Share Posted June 7, 2012 Originally Posted by Piano Whore Tim, those days are LONG gone. Do you base that observation on any experience less than 20 years old? (Actually, more like 30). Yea ,, we got a full time piano bar guy down here on the island ,, and i know another one with a house gig in brownsville. There is a young guy in kalamazoo that is doing a solo piano gig , you might have heard of him Matt gerard, He was on american idol. the dual piano format is popular in some places. There was a piano bar guy on the cruise ship when we played that music cruise last jan. I would think that carnival cruise line has one on every ship. I think you will find that that gig is alive and well but typically you only see full time pros doing em. You dont see many weekend warriors doing them though. You may even see some studio session guys doing them too to fill in on off times. They need to flexable because many of the top guys also go on tour with different bands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIMKEYS Posted June 7, 2012 Members Share Posted June 7, 2012 Originally Posted by wades_keys Really?My landlord is a salaried piano bar player and has been for about 50 years or so; pretty well known around this area and is even in a book too.Long gone? Not really. Just not so many places to gig like that. But they exist. Come around this way and I'll introduce you to Freddie and take ya out to Jerry Green's, cool? I think what the biggest issue is that there is a lack of guys who are good enough to do that gig. All the guys i know who are good enough have a gig doing it. This guy is doing them. Riley Osborne, Piano SoloEvery Monday 6:00PM @ Perry's Steakhouse and Grille (map) Riley is One of Austin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members trevcda Posted June 7, 2012 Members Share Posted June 7, 2012 Originally Posted by WynnD There have been times in the past when keyboard players were expected to have as much equipment as Keith Emerson. The required $20,000 to obtain that much stuff scared me. At the risk of not having read the whole thread, I'll chime in on the OT. A guitar or bass player with no money can show up with a no-name guitar, a pedal and a peavey amp and get the job done. A broke keyboard player shows up with a cheap Casio and no PA. The guitarist can generally get work and trade up as they go along. Unless you're doing circuit bent industrial noise music, the Casio is not likely to get you off the ground. It's generally a large outlay of cash to get somethng gig worthy. Virtual synths are making it easier and they're becoming more and more reliable, but you still have to have a system capable of playing the full range of sound and that, agian, takes cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members KeysBear Posted June 7, 2012 Members Share Posted June 7, 2012 Originally Posted by trevcda At the risk of not having read the whole thread, I'll chime in on the OT. A guitar or bass player with no money can show up with a no-name guitar, a pedal and a peavey amp and get the job done. A broke keyboard player shows up with a cheap Casio and no PA. The guitarist can generally get work and trade up as they go along. Unless you're doing circuit bent industrial noise music, the Casio is not likely to get you off the ground. It's generally a large outlay of cash to get somethng gig worthy. Virtual synths are making it easier and they're becoming more and more reliable, but you still have to have a system capable of playing the full range of sound and that, agian, takes cash. when I was a teenager this was why I played bass in bands instead of keys. I finally got a good deal on a beat up Hammond M3 and in my 20's bought a really beat up Fender Rhodes. My first good synth was a Roland Juno 106 which I saved up for six months to buy. When I asked about a stand they threw in a used Wurlitzer EP for $100 to put the Roland on top of. That gear got me an audition with a top notch working band. The lead guitarist of that band had tried to learn keys like EVH which didn't work out like he planned so he had a Korg DW-8000 that he sold me on payments which he took out of my gig pay. My amplifier rig was a one rack space mixer (Korg I think), a Peavey CS800 amp I got for $300, and a cheap 15" PA speaker which got me through the 80's. Before I bought the CS800 I used the unused side of the bass player's Crown amp. It's still a challenge today. My Roland XP-50 died awhile back and the Yamaha SY-35 I used for five years for keys bass finally got so many broken keys I had to leave it at home. I treat my Yamaha MO-6 very gently but it's getting high mileage on it too. I think the contacts are going out on my Yamaha CS1x I use on my top tier because pressing down on the ribbon connectors will bring back the missing keys, for awhile. So I'm GASSING for a Roland Juno Di right now to take its place and hope to scrape up the $700 in the next couple of months.I like rack gear because it gets me the sounds without wearing out a keyboard and I can use a cheap M-Audio controller as a throw away. I've bought two Keystation 49's at hock shops for $50 each and use one now for keys bass controlling a Roland JV1010 module. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Piano Whore Posted June 7, 2012 Members Share Posted June 7, 2012 Originally Posted by wades_keys You a good keys player? You got gigs but if you don't, why not move your ass down here. You'll gig. So no, those days aren't so long gone as you say. Just gotta go find the gigs. You a good bass player? Well then move your ass down HERE- it's not as good a scene as S.Fla or the NE but there's definitely work to be done for a good, pro bassist- and not for $50-$75 a night either.. My buds are putting together a house band and had fits finding a bass player- the good ones are all busy. Or bat-{censored} crazy.As for myself, I'm about as busy as I can handle for now, given a work schedule that rules out most week-day gigs. I play every weekend with bands, and have a weekly Sunday brunch piano gig, plus the occasional wedding rehearsal party or other societal function that requires "wallpaper piano". My job is ending in about a month, though, and I'll be free to be a starving musician once again. I relish the challenge. The weekday coffeehouse etc. gigging scene, after totally drying up during the worst of the recession, has made somewhat of a comeback. From '00-'04 I worked 5 nights a week at 2 different fine dining restaurants, but usually only for $100-$125 a night plus tips. Other than my private club, there are 2 piano bars currently open. Those places never pay more than $50 an hour-which of course is much better than the $15 an hr or so you get for band gigs (factoring in drive-time, set-up/teardown etc.). Maybe KY is an anamoly, but I have to be very skeptical there are that many full-time piano bar opportunities still out there. In full disclosure, I don't (or rarely) sing so that rules out alot of opportunities. Other than that I can handle anything, music-wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted June 7, 2012 Members Share Posted June 7, 2012 Originally Posted by KeysBear I like rack gear because it gets me the sounds without wearing out a keyboard and I can use a cheap M-Audio controller as a throw away. I've bought two Keystation 49's at hock shops for $50 each and use one now for keys bass controlling a Roland JV1010 module. That's a good solution...but man....you actually wear out the keyboards? You must play with a pretty heavy hand! I don't know that I've broken more than 2 or 3 keys on any synth I've owned in over 30 years. I've been playing a Yamaha Motif for 10 years now and I broke one key on it 5-6 years ago, and lately the volume slider has been a bit 'dirty' and one of the control knobs is feeling loose. Lighten up on the touch, man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members KeysBear Posted June 7, 2012 Members Share Posted June 7, 2012 Originally Posted by guido61 That's a good solution...but man....you actually wear out the keyboards? You must play with a pretty heavy hand! I don't know that I've broken more than 2 or 3 keys on any synth I've owned in over 30 years. I've been playing a Yamaha Motif for 10 years now and I broke one key on it 5-6 years ago, and lately the volume slider has been a bit 'dirty' and one of the control knobs is feeling loose. Lighten up on the touch, man! Keys bass wore out the SY-35 and is already doing some damage to the M-Audio Keystation. I've always had a heavy piano hand, broke a string on a Steinway back in college. I have gone to a more fingers oriented technique in recent years to save wear and tear on myself. A few years back the CS1x got knocked off the top tier by a drunk dancer who fell into the stage, shattered the left side around the mod wheel which I used epoxy to repair all the little pieces. That may have been the jolt that started the contacts problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIMKEYS Posted June 7, 2012 Members Share Posted June 7, 2012 Originally Posted by guido61 That's a good solution...but man....you actually wear out the keyboards? You must play with a pretty heavy hand! I don't know that I've broken more than 2 or 3 keys on any synth I've owned in over 30 years. I've been playing a Yamaha Motif for 10 years now and I broke one key on it 5-6 years ago, and lately the volume slider has been a bit 'dirty' and one of the control knobs is feeling loose. Lighten up on the touch, man! You can actually see wear on the plastic keys on my RD300sx from playing it. I had a tech fix a jack issue on it, and he said the internals of the keybed look great. Thank god its not the new fake ivory stuff they use on the NX series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIMKEYS Posted June 7, 2012 Members Share Posted June 7, 2012 Originally Posted by trevcda At the risk of not having read the whole thread, I'll chime in on the OT. A guitar or bass player with no money can show up with a no-name guitar, a pedal and a peavey amp and get the job done. A broke keyboard player shows up with a cheap Casio and no PA. The guitarist can generally get work and trade up as they go along. Unless you're doing circuit bent industrial noise music, the Casio is not likely to get you off the ground. It's generally a large outlay of cash to get somethng gig worthy. Virtual synths are making it easier and they're becoming more and more reliable, but you still have to have a system capable of playing the full range of sound and that, agian, takes cash. We have good bass players comming out of our ears down here. We have a major shortage of drummers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Piano Whore Posted June 7, 2012 Members Share Posted June 7, 2012 Yamaha replaced the entire keybed (free of charge, in spite of being a 2nd hand owner!) on my P120 a few years ago, P140 keys, since then no key breaking problems. And is much better action, too. I used to have a Kawai MP4 (?) that I liked, but broke a key on it first thing. Shame, cause it was a nice piano. So far no problems with my Hammond SK1 or any Yamaha synth action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members delaware dave Posted June 8, 2012 Members Share Posted June 8, 2012 i recognize this post started 2 1/2 years and 475 posts ago. I have been told 1000 times buy every type of musician that keyboard players are so hard to find. I have found this to be pretty much bull{censored}. What is hard to find are bands who really want keyboard players (or I should say really want to pay for the additional musician). As the prices continue to plummet at local establishments for live bands I'm seeing (apart from DJ's and karaoke) more 3 and 4 piece bands. No one wants to add the keyboard when clubs are only paying $300-400. Everyone wants to walk away with $100/man so in many cases that limits the band to 3-4 pieces. They never think twice about adding that second guitar but they never think about adding the keyboard rather than a 2nd guitar. Keys are usually the last piece thought about in the equation; then they want you to be the sax, trumpet, brass and strings section for the band. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members KeysBear Posted June 8, 2012 Members Share Posted June 8, 2012 Originally Posted by delaware dave What is hard to find are bands who really want keyboard players (or I should say really want to pay for the additional musician). As the prices continue to plummet at local establishments for live bands I'm seeing (apart from DJ's and karaoke) more 3 and 4 piece bands. No one wants to add the keyboard when clubs are only paying $300-400. Everyone wants to walk away with $100/man so in many cases that limits the band to 3-4 pieces. They never think twice about adding that second guitar but they never think about adding the keyboard rather than a 2nd guitar. Keys are usually the last piece thought about in the equation; then they want you to be the sax, trumpet, brass and strings section for the band. lots of truth in this. I've worked in a lot of bands that had one guitarist. Of course now we still make it as a four piece with two guitars because I play keys bass. In some bands getting the guitar players to give up the keys solos is nearly impossible too, like the Santana tunes which they think are nothing but long guitar jams. I've had guitarists scream at me for taking the proper solo at the proper time saying it threw them off from what they were used to. Dude, uh, like why am I here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted June 8, 2012 Members Share Posted June 8, 2012 Originally Posted by KeysBear lots of truth in this. I've worked in a lot of bands that had one guitarist. Of course now we still make it as a four piece with two guitars because I play keys bass. In some bands getting the guitar players to give up the keys solos is nearly impossible too, like the Santana tunes which they think are nothing but long guitar jams. I've had guitarists scream at me for taking the proper solo at the proper time saying it threw them off from what they were used to. Dude, uh, like why am I here? Guitarists The days of the long, boring solo are waning big time. Largely brought on by all the wankering guitarists who refused to shut up with their endless solos. Even for classic rock crowds---VIRTUALLY NOBODY CARES ABOUT YOUR SOLO. Play the memorable solo off the record and be done with it. Nobody wants to hear you jam out for 6 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted June 8, 2012 Members Share Posted June 8, 2012 Originally Posted by guido61 Guitarists The days of the long, boring solo are waning big time. Largely brought on by all the wankering guitarists who refused to shut up with their endless solos. Sounds like 1992 all over again. In cover/pop music, sure.But new music in almost any rock genre? NO WAY. Guitar solos are BACK. Avenged Sevenfold, Trivium, even weird ass Mars Volta. I'm even starting to hear more leads in female-fronted pop type stuff too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted June 8, 2012 Members Share Posted June 8, 2012 Originally Posted by wades_keys Avenged Sevenfold, Trivium, even weird ass Mars Volta. Yeah, I can't hardly get through a set without people asking us if we play any "Trivium".... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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