If I was joining or starting a new band I would want clarification on a few things...

[TrickyBoy]

 

Yeah, but that's the establishment working....A lot of these cats got their foot in the door years ago, or they know somebody. If the formula were really that simple, every basement band that ever copied a popular setlist and could play okay would be out there gigging with no trouble. But that's not how it really works, is it?

 

 

No, because:

 

1. a lot of these "standards" aren't that easy to pull off, especially vocally.

2. a lot more goes into the success of a band than just song selection. Stage presence, looks, attitude on stage, etc. all play a part

3. you still have to give someone who is not a friend/family member a COMPELLING reason to come see your band. Song selection alone is not that. It could be the promise of a good time, cool fun arrangements, some sort of theme or gimmick, exceptional musicianship, free condom give-aways, whatever.

 

I freely post our setlist and will give it to any band in the area. It's not the recipe for our band. It's simply an ingredient.

[wades_keys]

 

Sure fire way to stay in the basement is to play only the songs you want. Unless your taste is the same as whatevers popular. I'm with Kramer guy here if I was joining a new band I damn sure want to know what kind of songs we were going to play.

 

I do too, but I just don't agree with wording in that way.

 

Like I said: show me the setlist.

 

And like I pointed out: how much sense does it really make to ask the question that way?

 

It comes off as accusatory like: are you really saying I don't give a {censored} about whether these songs will fly or not?

 

C'mon dude...Even the folks that are playing "not for the crowd" don't tend to look at it that way. They've convinced themselves that that tune or tunes will work.

 

And they may even be right.

 

The only way to know is get up on that stage and give it a shot. Arguing in the basement about what you or I or another band member thinks "will work" is bull{censored} and I've about had enough of that to last 2 lifetimes.

 

And see, since there is no gig experience at that point - you have to fall back on: "well it worked in my last band" or "it works for band x".

 

Both of those options suck: let's play the same tired tunes we already know and have already been played out, or let's copy band x because it works for them.

 

How about option 3:

 

Let's play tunes that fit our band's image and musical abilities. Let's NOT pick a song just because a previous band or a current popular band does it.

 

Especially if we haven't taken the time to get to know the strengths and weaknesses of the bandmates.

 

Let's rely on our intuition and ability to judge what "will work", because ultimately we have to do that anyway. Let's not get in arguments about what you or I think will work or what you or I think we "must" play. Let's get down to work and get some gigs booked, and let the chips fall where they do.

 

Like rhat says: you gotta be ready to let the band evolve naturally. You don't wanna come in there with your "master plan" as if you've got all the damn answers.

[Vito Corleone]

"playing to the crowd" vs. "song you want to play" is the wrong way to put it and only leads to arguments. EVERY band is 'playing to the crowd' to some degree or another. And, in the end, it's not about the songlist as much as how you perform it.

 

I can name you at least a dozen bands in my area playing "Jessies Girl". Some are pulling down $3k-5k per gig 6-8 times a month. Some are lucky to do one $500 gig a month. So it's not just about the songlist.

 

I'm sure that band doing all Yes and Kansas type covers could do very well IF they kicked ass on the songs AND they played the right circuit.

 

The bottom line is you gotta understand A) the strengths and weaknesses of your band and B) the dynamics of your market.

 

This takes both research and getting out there and playing.

[SpaceNorman]

 

No it isn't All you need to do is check their calendar and setlist. If you don't like what you see, then pass gracefully.

 

 

While I agree with you that checking their calendar and setlist will provide you with alot answers - reality is that their calendar and setlist tells you where they are at and not necessarily where they are trying to go.

 

I agree with Kramerguy that asking a soft (and yes, somewhat cheesy) philosophical question like "are we playing for the crowd or for ourselves" is OK. It's certainly not a question I'd ask because I care about the answers. The ensuing discussion around the topic would however be very telling in terms of where everybody's heads and hearts are on what is often a very devisive issue in many bands.

[Raskolnikovs axe]

 

Sure fire way to stay in the basement is to play only the songs you want.

 

 

Quite possibly, but there are lots of people who'd rather play in a basement with buddies doing music they love rather than play out with stuff they don't like. That's why this is an important question. Wades_keys is assuming that this is only applying to cover bands with the intention of getting paid gigs. There are many bands that do not fall into that category, and that's why it's something that should be discussed. It's also a very important question to discuss in an originals band - do you want to try and hop on some bandwagon that's currently popular and hope to 'make it', do you want to not give a {censored} about anybody's responses but your own and make music that you love, or somewhere in between.

 

Now, it's very true that you might not come down on a definitive answer one way or another on this question, but personally I would never want to be in a band that couldn't have an internal discussion about how things were going to work - with the understanding that we're not going to agree 100% of the time. We're all different, but finding the common ground and common goals are essential to having a solid band.

[New Trail]

Well, here's the thing, the point of this thread isn't really to find any answers, it's to try to determine what the questions should be.

 

I've gotten into two situations recently in which band members weren't on the same page about things like (1)what kind of songs to play (hit dance songs vs. songs that are cool and that we like), (2) how often to play (as much as we can vs. as little as we have to) and other similiar issues, issues that could have been resolved by a little discussion up front.

 

I won't join or start another band without talking about those kinds of things and everyone being on the same page, unless I'm a hired gun.

 

BTW I don't know why Wade Hayes is so unnecessarily confrontational today. Maybe he's having issues or a bad day...Let's all send him some love...:love:

[wades_keys]

BTW I don't know why Wade Hayes is so unnecessarily confrontational today. Maybe he's having issues or a bad day...Let's all send him some love... :love:

 

Nah, I'm just kind of distracted this week.

 

These kinds of philosophical discussions are all well and good once you get to know the folks.

 

I think going into a new situation and asking that question in that way will just cause more problems than not:

1: It may come off as if YOU have all the answers, and are demanding things be done your way.

 

2: It may offend those that do in fact want to try some "off the beaten path" material, while still being in tune with the gig and the "crowd"

 

Just like politics: philosophical discussions are best reserved for folks that you already know. Best to be low key and focused on getting to know the strengths and weaknesses of everybody first.

 

I mean: you could have a situation where a band wants to do "popular" songs that they aren't capable of. You wouldn't want to get all gung-ho and agree on a bunch of tunes before you've really spent time playing with em and seeing what's up, right?

 

Haven't we all been in situations where people over-extend beyond their capability, especially vocally? Who the hell wants to be a part of that?

[Vito Corleone]

 

I do too, but I just don't agree with wording in that way. Like I said: show me the setlist. And like I pointed out: how much sense does it really make to ask the question that way? It comes off as accusatory like: are you really saying I don't give a {censored} about whether these songs will fly or not? C'mon dude...Even the folks that are playing "not for the crowd" don't tend to look at it that way. They've convinced themselves that that tune or tunes will work. And they may even be right. The only way to know is get up on that stage and give it a shot. Arguing in the basement about what you or I or another band member thinks "will work" is bull{censored} and I've about had enough of that to last 2 lifetimes. And see, since there is no gig experience at that point - you have to fall back on: "well it worked in my last band" or "it works for band x". Both of those options suck: let's play the same tired tunes we already know and have already been played out, or let's copy band x because it works for them. How about option 3: Let's play tunes that fit our band's image and musical abilities. Let's NOT pick a song just because a previous band or a current popular band does it. Especially if we haven't taken the time to get to know the strengths and weaknesses of the bandmates. Let's rely on our intuition and ability to judge what "will work", because ultimately we have to do that anyway. Let's not get in arguments about what you or I think will work or what you or I think we "must" play. Let's get down to work and get some gigs booked, and let the chips fall where they do. Like rhat says: you gotta be ready to let the band evolve naturally. You don't wanna come in there with your "master plan" as if you've got all the damn answers.

 

 

 

I know what you're saying. The problem I have with that is for some of us, this isn't our first ride on this pony. The only thing worse than some dictator wanting to impose his "master plan" on the band is to spend two years playing songs the band agrees are 'cool' only to come around to the "master plan" in the end.

 

If a band only wants to play what they like and doesn't care about the number or $$ value of gigs, then the point is mute. But if the goal is to play a lot and for as much as you can, then it has to be remembered that gigging is a business.

 

Yeah, you don't want to be a carbon copy of other bands in your market. But you also don't want to play only reggae tunes from the 1960s in an effort to find your own niche either.

 

It's a business: let the market dictate what your band should be. If there are certain gigs you'd really like to get, look at the bands that work a lot at those venues and try to figure out what your band would have to do to fit in to what the venue is doing. That doesn't mean copying their set list song-for-song, but it almost certainly means putting together a songlist and a performance style that would appeal to the same audience in the same manner.

[wades_keys]

 

If a band only wants to play what they like and doesn't care about the number or $$ value of gigs, then the point is mute. But if the goal is to play a lot and for as much as you can, then it has to be remembered that gigging is a business.

 

AH - now we're getting closer to the heart of the matter.

 

So - given that this is really all about GIGS, how many, and where - then the better choice would be to ask THOSE types of questions.

 

Of course, you could always choose to instead discuss philosophy and "playing for the crowd".

[wades_keys]

I would ask what plans they have for promotion, including offering to assist in specific ways.

 

I would ask what gig contacts they have cultivated.

 

I would find out what their previous band history is.

 

I would find out whether the goal is to gig more than they rehearse.

 

I would find out what the expected timeline is to be gig ready

 

I would find out who is hosting the rehearsal, on what night, and what the situation is (EG: if the guys wife and kids have to leave everytime you rehearse, I can tell you for a fact that this situation won't last long). I would find out if these are the types of people who insist on weekly rehearsal regardless of gig schedule.

 

I would find out where the other bandmembers live, to make sure nobody is too far away to make rehearsal or gigging practical.

 

I would find out what the work schedules and family commitments are; this includes ascertaining whether there are any bums in the group.

 

I would find out what financial expectations are: nothing worse than being in a band where you've got one guy that "needs" the money to pay rent or keep his car on the road, while the others are playing for fun.

 

Most importantly I would jam with them and find out what they're good at. At the next rehearsal, I'd be looking to see who has self-discipline and does their homework, showing up ready to play, and who doesn't. I'd listen for repeated mistakes, I'd be on the lookout for volume issues (drummers especially), and I'd also be mindful of the quality of the equipment they use.

[Vito Corleone]

 

AH - now we're getting closer to the heart of the matter. So - given that this is really all about GIGS, how many, and where - then the better choice would be to ask THOSE types of questions. Of course, you could always choose to instead discuss philosophy and "playing for the crowd".

 

 

Well, I'm on record many times in this forum saying that everyone on the band needs to be on the same page.

 

So to go back to the OPs original post: do you need to decide if you're playing for yourselves or for the crowd? Yes. I don't know if you need to put in those exact terms, but yes---nothing is probably more important than deciding if you're going to be a band that goes after the gigs in your area or be a band that only does what they want to do regardless of what gigs are available.

 

Now it's my experience that a band of the latter type would already know that before they even have that first meeting: if you're a bunch of guys who only want to play the blues, or 80s synth pop, or be a Beatles tribute, the only reason you're probably even getting together is because of your common musical interest.

 

So it seems to me that the fact that the question is even being asked, is because a group of guys are getting together for whom being a working band is at least as important as the joy of playing.

 

So once we've established that yes, we want to gig--then the problem becomes one of personality conflicts and personal tastes. And that's where you get into the problem of dealing with musicians that just can't believe that playing Kansas songs wouldn't be the perfect thing to do because A) HE loves Kansas and B) you still hear them on the radio.

 

THAT'S when it becomes a business like any other. On one level, starting a band is no different than say, opening a pizza restaurant. Yes, it COULD work to have exotic toppings on your pizzas and a funky floorplan in a remote location. DEPENDING on your market. Then again, just serving a kick-ass pepperoni and mushroom pizza in a really fun and comfortable setting might be what packs the joint.

[wades_keys]

 

Then again, just serving a kick-ass pepperoni and mushroom pizza in a really fun and comfortable setting might be what packs the joint.

 

Except there are already dozens of pizzarias that do just that.

[wades_keys]

So to go back to the OPs original post: do you need to decide if you're playing for yourselves or for the crowd? Yes. I don't know if you need to put in those exact terms, but yes---nothing is probably more important than deciding if you're going to be a band that goes after the gigs in your area or be a band that only does what they want to do regardless of what gigs are available.

Or be in a band that does what they want AND gets gigs.

 

Most bands fail in my opinion because they lack social skills and the ability to sell and market what they do.

 

There's also the fact that a band needs to be appropriate for the venue: appropriate dress, volume, language, and even size of the gear.

 

You go rolling into a place like Sieg's pier with a big dumb-ass rock show, and not only will you break your back, you'll have the cops on both of sides of the river looking to shut your ass down.

 

ON the flipside, if you go rolling into a college bar with a rinky dink system and start playing music like a wedding band, you'll run em all out of the place.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Except there are already dozens of pizzarias that do just that.

 

 

That's why you gotta do some research and find your niche in the market.

 

But unless you're doing something REALLY exotic and REALLY special and doing it REALLY well, there's a better-than-pretty-good chance that your biggest seller is still going to be pepperoni and mushroom.

 

The main reason between pizza joints that succeed and those that don't isn't the choice of toppings. It's all the other stuff that goes into having a successful restaurant.

[wades_keys]

 

That's why you gotta do some research and find your niche in the market. But unless you're doing something REALLY exotic and REALLY special and doing it REALLY well, there's a better-than-pretty-good chance that your biggest seller is still going to be pepperoni and mushroom. The main reason between pizza joints that succeed and those that don't isn't the choice of toppings. It's all the other stuff that goes into having a successful restaurant.

 

Yeah, that's very true. Ya gotta toe the line for sure. It can't be all b sides, all the time or it goes nowhere.

 

That's a source of mild tension in my outfit. Believe it or not, I've been the biggest proponent of "A list" "can't miss" tunes, and haven't gotten my way as much as I'd like.

 

Our strength is in the bluesier stuff, but it's a balance for sure.

 

(I suggested "Mustang Sally" and that damn song kills every time.)

[Vito Corleone]

Or be in a band that does what they want AND gets gigs.

 

Well of course. But that only works within the limitation that "what they want" is a commericially viable product.

 

Most bands fail in my opinion because they lack social skills and the ability to sell and market what they do. There's also the fact that a band needs to be appropriate for the venue: appropriate dress, volume, language, and even size of the gear.

 

Yes, those are important factors.

 

You go rolling into a place like Sieg's pier with a big dumb-ass rock show, and not only will you break your back, you'll have the cops on both of sides of the river looking to shut your ass down. ON the flipside, if you go rolling into a college bar with a rinky dink system and start playing music like a wedding band, you'll run em all out of the place.

 

yep.

[wades_keys]

 

Well of course. But that only works within the limitation that "what they want" is a commericially viable product.

 

Yup.

 

And this is back to my point about letting the band evolve. You can't know until you try, sometimes repeatedly.

 

And (maybe) there's also the issue of needing to gain confidence, stage presence, and other experience that can only come from the stage and not the bedroom or garage.

[SeniorBlues]

I had a mutual audition last Sunday . . about 1 1/2 hours playing and an equal amount of time discussing the issues that have been raised here.

 

I have some training in designing questionnaires. It's harder than you may think to ask a question that doesn't contain some bias . . that isn't a leading question. The idea is to frame it so they'll tell you what they think without them considering what you might want to hear. It's a balance between being forthcoming and getting others to be honest with you.

[wades_keys]

 

I had a mutual audition last Sunday . . about 1 1/2 hours playing and an equal amount of time discussing the issues that have been raised here. I have some training in designing questionnaires. It's harder than you may think to ask a question that doesn't contain some bias . . that isn't a leading question. The idea is to frame it so they'll tell you what they think without them considering what you might want to hear. It's a balance between being forthcoming and getting others to be honest with you.

 

In your opinion, and based on your experience, would you say that this question contains bias:

 

 

3. Are we playing "for the crowd" or just for us?

 

If so, how would you correct it to avoid that?

 

How did the audition go? Does it look like it will be a good fit? I hope so: I'm a fan of bands that do things a little differently from the norm...

[SeniorBlues]

3. Are we playing "for the crowd" or just for us?

 

or . . . . Are we playing for us or just the crowd?

 

Get rid of "just".

 

It's not an either/or issue, at least not for us.

 

We talked about covering songs that are well known but not the most popular cover from a list of "must-cover" artists.

 

We seem to agree on a lot of important things, yet the leadership issue (and communication!) is still up in the air.

 

So I'm not really sure what the hell is going on.

[wades_keys]

 

3. Are we playing "for the crowd" or just for us? or . . . . Are we playing for us or just the crowd? Get rid of "just". It's not an either/or issue, at least not for us. We talked about covering songs that are well known but not the most popular cover from a list of "must-cover" artists.

 

That's been our approach, and it seems to work for us: after one gig at a location, the owner came up to us and was very complementary of our setlist, saying that he likes what we do because we don't play the same songs every other band plays.

 

We're now in regular location at that place, which is cool by me.

 

There are a TON of copycat bands in this area: you know it's bad when the club owners are getting sick of it and looking for something different.

[Vito Corleone]

 

And this is back to my point about letting the band evolve. You can't know until you try, sometimes repeatedly.

 

 

Many times yes. But there are also shortcuts that experienced musicians can take. Running songs in-and-out of a songlist at repeated gigs in order to find out what does and doesn't work is a process that can take a band years before they come up with the right setlist for that band and their intended market. And nine times out of ten, that final "works for us" list is going to include a lot of songs that many members in the band are going to say "gee, I never thought I'd be playing THAT songs, but whaddya know..it works!"

 

A lot of time and trouble could be saved if they'd just listen to what the marketplace is telling them at the beginning and not being so stubborn about stuff.

[Lee Flier]

Wow, this thread got goofy in a hurry.

 

There is nothing in the OP that remotely suggests that he's looking to take over anybody's band or be argumentative. They're questions - to see where the band is at and decide whether he's on the same page. If asking a question = being an argumentative dick, we're in trouble.

 

In fact, a good band leader would lay out the answers to those questions without being asked. When you call or email, they should have a clear idea what the goals are for the band, how often they intend to play out, how material will be selected, etc. I'm talking for cover bands here - original bands can be formed on the basis of liking the same music and wanting to just get together and see what happens, and let roles and songs evolve naturally. But why would anyone join a cover band without knowing the answers to questions like those in the OP?

 

And yes, I think the "playing to the crowd" question is important, although perhaps I'd word it differently. If the leader already has a setlist, great - then look it over. But they may not if it's a startup band, and they may be open to getting input from the other members. I think that "are we going to base our setlist only on what's popular, or will we throw in any lesser known stuff that we personally think is cool, and see how it goes over?" That might influence someone's decision whether a particular band is the right one for them. It's not a leading question - if the leader is set on doing only what's popular, then maybe I'm not the right person for that band and I'd rather not waste both our time. Or maybe I AM the right person for that band because I'm willing to play whatever will get us the most gigs, and am tired of dealing with bands who are too selective about their material. In either case, there's nothing wrong with asking. Ideally, the leader will volunteer that information.

[Vito Corleone]

 

That's been our approach, and it seems to work for us: after one gig at a location, the owner came up to us and was very complementary of our setlist, saying that he likes what we do because we don't play the same songs every other band plays. We're now in regular location at that place, which is cool by me. There are a TON of copycat bands in this area: you know it's bad when the club owners are getting sick of it and looking for something different.

 

 

I'm not sure why it is you always seem to get so defensive on this subject, Wade. From what I can see, your band is following the same basic "play for the crowd" pattern. I don't see much of anything on your songlist that doesn't say "time tested crowd pleaser song" and you clearly are interested in pleasing the club owners. So why all the defensiveness? We're much more on the same page here than not.

[TrickyBoy]

 

In fact, a good band leader would lay out the answers to those questions without being asked.

 

 

Who defines the "band leader" in a startup (assuming that the musicians don't already have previous dealings with each other).

 

I go back to what I said 400 posts ago. In a newly forming band where the members are not familiar with each other, I want to know 3 things:

 

1. Do we get along?

2. Can we play?

3. Do we like/want to play the same basic type of music?

 

If the answer to these are yes, let's play some music and let it evolve naturally.