Will better than average talent overcome an average songlist and show, etc.?

[tim_7string]

 

 

 

Wow, what a great band! And from what it sounds like at the end, the drummer was filling in with them? Amazing!

 

I hope my own band can be as good as this someday. Just gotta find the right guys.

[mumpfic1]

Wow! Ok lets see Ive been playing guitar for 20 years. I practice my ass off at least 3 to 4 hrs a day, I make sure guitar tones are as perfect as I can for every song. I try to make every solo AWESOME as I possiably can(Not that every solo is awesome.Damn I wish) And it doesnt even matter? I could have phoned it in?

I do agree the drums are so important to a bands sound and the Lead singer is very important for example our singer is not a great singer BUT he is great frontman.

Now as for guitar solos. If not done every song and done well they can get a very good response for example when we do Led Zeps "Heartbreaker" I do the longer solo in the middle and it gets a good response as does the the solo for "Sweet Child O Mine" and others.People appreciate good playing as long as its in a entertaining package.

[rangefinder]

Wow! Ok lets see Ive been playing guitar for 20 years. I practice my ass off at least 3 to 4 hrs a day, I make sure guitar tones are as perfect as I can for every song. I try to make every solo AWESOME as I possiably can(Not that every solo is awesome.Damn I wish) And it doesnt even matter? I could have phoned it in?

 

Well I think there are three basic levels for instruments:

1.) Lame

2.) Decent

3.) Amazing

 

and that there is a huge mass of musicians in Level 2 where it doesn't really matter much where exactly you are in that level, especially if you can contribute to the "show" in other ways.

 

If you put in the work to get to Level 3, NOW you might be talking. But you STILL might not be as important as a front person who puts almost no real "work" in, but just has the magical "IT".

 

Such is life.

[JonChorba]

Like a broken record...

 

Vocals, Performance, drums, everything else..

[mstreck]

 

 

 

I can't see youtube video at work. I'll check it out when I get home.

 

"Good" and "talented" are two different animals.

 

There is video of one band from around here on youtube, but I'm not going to call them out like that. Nice people and very talented musicians - more than I will ever be - playing worn out tunes and looking frumpy in stage (although they are barely middle-aged). They have connections that allow them to play public events with built-in crowds but seem to have no following otherwise.

 

We fall into rangefinder's "Level 2" - somewhere above the middle of the mediocrity range. We have a following and a pretty decent draw- but we didn't before we started paying attention to song selections and show energy (and there were some damn talented people in the band back then).

 

"Hard work beats talent, when talent doesn't work hard."

[New Trail]

...we are a party band. We bring the crowds and they party most bars into a stupor. I know of one local cover band specifically that has all the talent in the world, some of the best players I know, and they aren't bad on ANY level, but they just lack the friends/family ratio to get more than 10-15 people to show up to any given gig,...a great singer, great band, and even a great front-man/woman, drummer, guitar god, whatever, won't save any band that just can't get people to show up.

 

So you're saying that a band who, either collectively or individually, has a lot of friends who will show up to gigs and party like crazy, trumps even a more talented, but friendless band? I'll buy that.

[dan88z]

So you're saying that a band who, either collectively or individually, has a lot of friends who will show up to gigs and party like crazy, trumps even a more talented, but friendless band? I'll buy that.

 

I agree with this too. There are a number of bands in this area that play the "A" rooms who really aren't that good from a musical aspect, but they cater to the younger/college crowd at the beach bars. Few people in that demographic care what is good or not, only what they like and what lets them have fun. The bar owners only care about the cash register.

 

My band won't play venues where the number of friends I bring determines if they have a good night or not. We're all in our mid 40's and up- our friends are not going out to bars until 1am to drink every weekend. We go for the venues where there is already a crowd and all we have to do is entertain them. Casinos, carnivals, private parties, smaller bars with regular crowds.

[mstreck]

they cater to the younger/college crowd at the beach bars. Few people in that demographic care what is good or not, only what they like and what lets them have fun.

 

BINGO - and we exploit this as much as we can!!!!

[Notes_Norton]

For the musician it's the music, for the audience the singer is the most important musician in the band.

 

This is of course heartbreaking for me, as I a very good sax player (best in the state each year I was in school), very good wind synth player, and decent on flute, bass, keyboard synth and drums. However my vocal equipment is adequate but not capable of being excellent (and I can't trade in my instrument).

 

Of course, with the right promotion, it could work. If there is enough money behind anybody, the public will adore them. But then we cross over from music to idol worship, and that's another subject entirely.

 

Fortunately my wife is an incredible singer. In our duo, she sings all the hard songs, and I sing the ones I can handle.

 

Insights and incites by Notes ?

[New Trail]

 

...My band won't play venues where the number of friends I bring determines if they have a good night or not. We're all in our mid 40's and up- our friends are not going out to bars until 1am to drink every weekend. We go for the venues where there is already a crowd and all we have to do is entertain them....

 

 

This is us, except we don't seem to be able (or willing, sometimes) to pick the right songs to entertain the crowd in the way I would like to able to do. What kind of songs does your band play?

[Vito Corleone]

 

This is us, except we don't seem to be able (or willing, sometimes) to pick the right songs to entertain the crowd in the way I would like to able to do. What kind of songs does your band play?

 

 

Hmmm..if you don't bring a crowd OR play the right songs to entertain the crowd that IS there...?

 

Not a whole lot of options left, are there?

[New Trail]

 

Hmmm..if you don't bring a crowd OR play the right songs to entertain the crowd that IS there...? Not a whole lot of options left, are there?

 

 

True, I just assumed that most everyone had read my other thread about our song list being inadequate at the gig last weekend.

[TrickyBoy]

Wow! Ok lets see Ive been playing guitar for 20 years. I practice my ass off at least 3 to 4 hrs a day, I make sure guitar tones are as perfect as I can for every song. I try to make every solo AWESOME as I possiably can(Not that every solo is awesome.Damn I wish) And it doesnt even matter? I could have phoned it in?

 

I'm in the same boat as you. 30 years playing with tons of hours of practice under my belt. But you're missing the point. The point is that in the context of a cover band, the vocals and rhythm section are the heart of the band. Yes, throw a really good guitarist on top of that and it ADDS to the band, but its just lagniappe (I love that word ). The same band with an average (or in some cases no) guitarist, can still be a very good band.

 

EDIT: Conversely, an exception guitarist with a below average rhythm section and singer is the recipe for a crappy band.

[Vito Corleone]

 

True, I just assumed that most everyone had read my other thread about our song list being inadequate at the gig last weekend.

 

 

Yeah, I did. Still just trying to get my head around where you're at exactly. You also started THIS thread. Do you think you have a front person who can sell a weaker songlist?

[Austincowbell]

Wow! Ok lets see Ive been playing guitar for 20 years. I practice my ass off at least 3 to 4 hrs a day, I make sure guitar tones are as perfect as I can for every song. I try to make every solo AWESOME as I possiably can(Not that every solo is awesome.Damn I wish) And it doesnt even matter? I could have phoned it in? I do agree the drums are so important to a bands sound and the Lead singer is very important for example our singer is not a great singer BUT he is great frontman. Now as for guitar solos. If not done every song and done well they can get a very good response for example when we do Led Zeps "Heartbreaker" I do the longer solo in the middle and it gets a good response as does the the solo for "Sweet Child O Mine" and others.People appreciate good playing as long as its in a entertaining package.

 

I'll give you two examples:

1. A great singer holds the last note of the chorus of "superstition". Elapsed time: 5 seconds and the crowd is impressed and cheers and goes back to dancing. You play an extended solo for 60 seconds. Crowd is impressed and ideally goes back to dancing. Some people might have given up 30 seconds into it and have gone back to their chairs.

2. You're playing a gig. Imagine when the band plays "Sweet home alabama" or "Blister in the sun" (these songs were chosen for illustrative purpose so please, everyone, ignore your impulse to debate them). 90-95% of the crowd is singing along to the songs. You play "hotel california"... 45-45% of the crowd is into the solo.

 

Everyone can in a room has an ability to sing along. Some of them might suck at it but no talent is required to do it. The same isn't necessarily true when it comes to appreciating a guitar solo. So, in my opinion, I think all non-instrument based bands (blues, math rock, prog rock, prog-math-blues-wank-rock) should focus on whatever gets the crowd most into their show and thats the vocals and the overall performance.

[dan88z]

 

This is us, except we don't seem to be able (or willing, sometimes) to pick the right songs to entertain the crowd in the way I would like to able to do. What kind of songs does your band play?

 

 

The "willing" part is the hardest. Do I like playing everything on our song list? No, we do a fair amount of material because the people like it, not because we like it. On the same token, there is enough material that I do enjoy that it isn't a big deal, and if the people are having fun, then it's a lot easier to get thru a few songs that you don't like.

 

One of the agents for a particular venue we play says "be all things to all people" and we've sort of taken that to heart. We do a little bit of everything. Will everyone like every song we do? No, but most of the people will like most of the songs we do, and it's a very good band ability wise, so everything at least sounds good when we do it. We also know our venues and tailor the set list to accomodate the venue. Some like more oldies, some like more rockers, some like more disco/dance. We hear all the time from the club owners and managers is that we're "not like everyone else we have" and how "you guys play all kinds of stuff, we like that". One bar owner said "you don't know how nice it is to hear a band NOT play Brown Eyed Girl or Mustang Sally" I told her, well, we do play Mustang Sally, but I wouldn't play it here, but the place we play next Friday, it'll be on the list.

[Kramerguy]

So you're saying that a band who, either collectively or individually, has a lot of friends who will show up to gigs and party like crazy, trumps even a more talented, but friendless band? I'll buy that.

 

nobody said it was a good thing, but it's the unfortunate reality of the music climate today.

[bnelly428]

Vox definitely #1, must have harmonies to be taken "serious" or be considered "professional"

Drums/bass, Must both be solid, with not one outshining the other. My drummer and bass player are in the pocket. Can pull out some great things if asked, but make sure they are driving the songs otherwise.

then the melody instruments. As long as the top 2 are in order, you can get away with a lot more here. HOWEVER, this is where most of your showmanship tends to come from ie guitar players who sing and play. Our vocalists are guitar/vox (me), rhythm/keys and then lead vox. We all sing lead on songs, with the two guitarists singing about 10-12 a night and lead vox 24 or so. and sing backups/harmonies on most others. It is a big selling point for the band and sets us apart from other bands that are doing the same thing we are.

 

 

TLDR; Vox, bass/drums, everything else.

[DevilRaysFan]

So you're saying that a band who, either collectively or individually, has a lot of friends who will show up to gigs and party like crazy, trumps even a more talented, but friendless band? I'll buy that.

 

These days, yup.......Plus, its really not the individual talent at all but more of how a band gels together with what they got: Ive seen many mediocre players form {censored}-hot bands because they have a winning lottery combination of chemistry............I'll even go further and say that having members in their 20s and early 30s is a total bonus.............For older folks, like me, its a constant retool, relock, and reload and trying to create new marketing strategies as I age. This is a point where the "Setlist" debate comes in - I believe that playing tired old songs like tired old musicians is FAIL, I also believe that selling and performing the crap out of tired old songs can, indeed, work very well, but a {censored}-hot killer band of experienced older players will have a whole different draw and attention than a younger upstart band with cute guys and half the talent; the younger cute guys/half the talent are going to be successful by proxy (provided thay are good people, too)...Why? For the same reason many bands set up killer light shows: People listen with their eyes....and younger upstart/half talent bands (with friends) are going to trump old men everytime (unless there is a gimick involved - which goes back to the 'retool' idea)

 

Argue all you want, I see it happening in my area, so I know its true....It is what it is......

 

The crux of this is "How do I want to market myself?"...As I get older, I want to move away from the 20s-30s clubs and start marketing myself in venues that draw a pier audience, because I know the generation gap is only going to widen each and every day, regardless of what level talent is in my band or not............

[MusicalSchizo]

 

I'd like to see a video of such a group. . . . any links? I say that because it's hard to be SUPER good and not be "into it", which is an important part of any show. Does this fit in your category? (snipped video of Tommy Lepson band)

 

 

That band is awesome on that tune. One of my favorite Meters tunes, and they do it justice in their own way - an amazing feat for a bunch of chunky old white dudes. Especially considering they didn't have any horns.

 

Brian V.

[Vito Corleone]

 

The crux of this is "How do I want to market myself?"...As I get older, I want to move away from the 20s-30s clubs and start marketing myself in venues that draw a pier audience, because I know the generation gap is only going to widen each and every day, regardless of what level talent is in my band or not............

 

 

And that's just it. This is probably the oldest/most tired conversation on this forum, but it really is an important one that just boggles me more people don't easily get. What I see over and over are older dudes playing in bands doing virtually the same songlist they were doing 30 years ago, looking 30 years older with at least 30 extra pounds and playing with less energy than they did back then standing around wondering where all the good gigs and the crowds are?

 

Unless you're in a tourist area, people over 35 rarely go out to see live music. (And those sorts of markets come with their own sets of rules)

 

So to get beyond the playing-background-music-for-dinner-crowd circuit, you've really only got 2 choices: find a way to market yourself in a manner that will be cool to younger audiences, or go find where the older crowds ARE and be the kind of band that can get THOSE gigs.

[SeniorBlues]

Hey David . . . the band whose video I uploaded (comment #18) . . . . Don't you want to say something about them?

 

Cause they seem to be the antithesis of everything you like to talk about.

[Vito Corleone]

Hey David . . . the band whose video I uploaded (comment #18) . . . . Don't you want to say something about them? Cause they seem to be the antithesis of everything you like to talk about.

 

?? An essentially original band that's been together for years??

 

Yeah, I have no reason to talk about bands like that here, so to that degree, I suppose they ARE the atithesis of everything I talk about. What advice would I have to give to a cat like that? He's been doing what he does for decades.

 

I'm not realy sure what you're trying to get at. Are you saying that putting together a band like is in an alternative option to some of the advice I've tried to give? OK. Go for it. You think got 20+ years to spend gigging, releasing albums and building your reputation so you can be where he is at today?

[DevilRaysFan]

Hey David . . . the band whose video I uploaded (comment #18) . . . . Don't you want to say something about them? Cause they seem to be the antithesis of everything you like to talk about.

 

 

I just watched your video - you guys are great! You are the type of band that, not only do I like musically, but that I would want to play with

 

You guys seem to be the type of band that attracts seasoned musicians; a band that other seasoned musicians would like and respect...Do you guys play current Nu-R&B or Nu Rock in your repetoire? If not, how do you do with younger audiences, early 20s females, and those type of demographics that arent musicians? How do you guys do in clubs where a tablefull of girls want to dance to Trey Songz, Usher, and Nu-R&B?...or when they want to rock out to Nickelback, Disturbed, or Kid Rock?

[wades_keys]

How do you guys do in clubs where a tablefull of girls want to dance to Trey Songz, Usher, and Nu-R&B?...or when they want to rock out to Nickelback, Disturbed, or Kid Rock?

I'll tell you how i respond.

 

I point to our banner, that says: "Classic Rock and Blues".

 

I'll die in a fire before I play any of that {censored}, sorry bro.

 

More bands IMO should get an identity that fits them, and not "the audience". You'll get an audience if you're committed and good enough, and they'll know what to expect too.

 

Hell, look at even your metal bands like Lamb Of God and what they have to say about how they do things: they do what THEY want to do, not what they think the "fans" will like.

 

All this runnin' around, wonderin' whether this or that song or other thing will "work" - reminds me of the cute but pathetic chick who's always asking people how she looks, or does so-and-so like her, or whatever.

 

Screw it man, I'm not even gonna give an ounce of thought in that direction. Instead, I'm just gonna go on my gut as a fan of music: what would I like to see/hear from the band I'm in, if I were in the audience. That to me is the best damn gauge we have.

 

Anything else is jive. You want Kid Rock? You ain't gonna get it from us, cuz that would be silly as hell: a bunch of older guys busting out Kid Rock - LOL. That's what's wrong with cover bands, sellin' out to the point of stupidity.