"Stairway To Heaven" turns 40 today....

[dparr]

[dparr]

[video=youtube;UexxZVv-BOM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UexxZVv-BOM&feature=related

[Roy Brooks]

I learned how to play "Stairway To Heaven" over thirty years ago. But I don't think I have ever played it in a band.

[Lee Knight]

That you feel you have to get your head around the idea is the problem here, I think. Nobody is suggesting the song should ACTUALLY be retired. You DO understand that, don't you? While I shouldn't be surprised, it's pretty ridiculous that this thread has become such a big topic. I'm certain there was a huge tongue-in-cheek present in the original article. At least that's the way I read it. And was certainly the intent with which I posted it here. Are those songs tired? Yes. Are they tired for many of the reasons he mentioned? Yes. Are they songs one can easily take a piss out of? Yes. All in good fun, IMO. I'm gonna guess Robert Plant would be the first to agree "enough with S2H already!" But by doing so the author offends the sensibilities of those who don't think he was respectfully critical of the Great Led Zeppelin and how DARE he suggest the song should be 'retired'? Puh-lease. And...kinda makes his point for him, really....

 

 

Man do you know how to miss the point. Seriously.

[Vito Corleone]

Man do you know how to miss the point. Seriously.

 

 

Well, if there weren't so many points being made at once and all trying to glom on each other, maybe I'd catch it easier.

 

3guitar certainly has a good point about weak music journalism and is entitled to that opinion. I disagree with him to the degree that I don't think the piece was ever intended to be a musical critique or even taken that seriously, but I understand he still has issues with it regardless. That's fair. I'm not telling him he's WRONG, per se...just that I disagree.

 

But most of this other stuff about the use of the word "retire" or how the guy obviously doesn't understand how great Jimmy Page really was, etc...? I say "lighten up". It's a fluff piece. It was presented tongue-in-cheek and in good humor. Talk about missing the point!

 

And, frankly, I think a good deal of this rush to attack the quality of the writing is little more than people who are offended by an attack on their favorite genre jumping on 3guitar's bandwagon after the fact. I found Wades dismissive comment about how the journalistic style was 40 years old and therefore invalid, pretty ironic considering he used that comment to defend a forty year old musical recording.

[goosefartfan]

It's an article written by a writer who got a gig as a music journalist that has nothing to say about the music. No mention of MUSICALLY why it should be put to rest, justa buncha hoo haa about lyrics and cultural stuff.. ..this type of crap exists to give the author a chance to be clever and smug: Iconic vocalist/self-styled shaman Jim Morrison's provocative use of the adjective "higher" might have given the staff of the The Ed Sullivan Show cause of alarm when Morrison brazenly sang it on the air that same year, but 44 years later, the Lizard King's somewhat remedial rhyme scheme -- paired with robustly-sideburned keyboardist Ray Manzarek's organ-noodling -- now feels more like being trapped in an indulgent poetry slam at an ice hockey rink. This type of stuff is kind of a pet peeve of mine....I'm more irritated by this kind of Spin/Rolling Stone type of "music" journalism than I should be.

 

 

this.

 

that writer will be writing next week about old porn stars that don't make him hard anymore, "let's put them out of their misery, and pack them off to the glue factory!"

 

I frankly don't give a {censored} about some "afficianado" who wakes up and decides to publish an article about how the world could be a better place if we only....

[Lee Knight]

Well, if there weren't so many points being made at once and all trying to glom on each other, maybe I'd catch it easier. 3guitar certainly has a good point about weak music journalism and is entitled to that opinion. I disagree with him to the degree that I don't think the piece was ever intended to be a musical critique or even taken that seriously, but I understand he still has issues with it regardless. That's fair. I'm not telling him he's WRONG, per se...just that I disagree. But most of this other stuff about the use of the word "retire" or how the guy obviously doesn't understand how great Jimmy Page really was, etc...? I say "lighten up". It's a fluff piece. It was presented tongue-in-cheek and in good humor. Talk about missing the point! And, frankly, I think a good deal of this rush to attack the quality of the writing is little more than people who are offended by an attack on their favorite genre jumping on 3guitar's bandwagon after the fact. I found Wades dismissive comment about how the journalistic style was 40 years old and therefore invalid, pretty ironic considering he used that comment to defend a forty year old musical recording.

 

 

What bothers me more than any journalist making funny on tired rock classics, is the bandwagon sensibility. Is the article important? Not at all. Is your reaction to it important. Of course not. I don't know you from Adam, but I'd probably like you a lot if we met. But your stance on this makes me very uneasy. Starting with your very first post.

 

You are a musician. Respect your trade.

 

Look, there are plenty of tunes that bug. I despise lots of stuff. But I like to keep in mind that the music in question was put together by real people. Still alive in lots of cases. And doing things so far beyond my abilities. But, hear this!

 

IT IS NOT THE SONG THAT I AM DEFENDING.

 

I'm only pointing out how transparent it is to mock things that are so far beyond the mocker's capabilities. Who does it serve? The finger pointer. You seem to have come down with coverbandittus. Actually thinking that because you can copy a part, it is the same as being able to write that part. And mistaking the situation altogether and thinking now that you're on par with these musicians and to smugly suggest they should "retire" a song cause you're burnt out on it.

 

See? It's not the journalist, really. It's the bandwagon. This mistaken belief that if you can down something, somehow that puts you above it.

 

It doesn't. It sadly puts you way below it. That's what's bugging me. It bugs the piss out of me. I honestly think you'd do well to stop trying to win this debate adn think about the above.

 

I gather by now, that is not in the cards.

[Vito Corleone]

 

What bothers me more than any journalist making funny on tired rock classics, is the bandwagon sensibility. Is the article important? Not at all. Is your reaction to it important. Of course not. I don't know you from Adam, but I'd probably like you a lot if we met. But your stance on this makes me very uneasy. Starting with your very first post. You are a musician. Respect your trade. Look, there are plenty of tunes that bug. I despise lots of stuff. But I like to keep in mind that the music in question was put together by real people. Still alive in lots of cases. And doing things so far beyond my abilities. But, hear this! IT IS NOT THE SONG THAT I AM DEFENDING.

 

 

And it's not the song that I am slamming. Look, I think the problem becomes that the world is not simple black-and-white and I personally view next to nothing in the world in such terms. Part of me loves those old songs I grew up with and part of me says "let's move on already!" Obviously there's room in the world for both classic rock and new stuff. And there's also room for people to say Jimmy Page is the greatest guitarist who ever lived and for people to say "let's retire that song". And I find truth in both views and all the others that exist in between. Is the author being a twit by so easily dismissing these songs by saying let's retire them? Of course. But it similarly twitish, IMO, to dismiss the dismissal. Again...lighten up, take a step back and look for the truth in all viewpoints rather than getting our backs up because somebody else takes what seems to be a definative stance.

 

Yes. Zeppelin were great. And many people, both young and old, recognize that and continue to. But it also serves some value to understand that there are a lot of people who view them today as we all once viewed Lawrence Welk.

 

As far as coverbandittus goes...I suppose I do myself no favors in getting my points across by posting so much, but apparently you've missed how unseriously I take the whole coverband thing except as a means to perform in front of audiences and maybe make some extra money. I'm probably the LAST guy who thinks it's makes me on par with ANYONE, except other coverband musicians. I would have thought I would have made my positions on the material I play clear by now, but apparently not. So I'll re-iterate: Since I play in a party/dance band, I'll play any song that packs the dance floor. That might be something on the charts today; it might be something that is 60 years old. If S2H filled that bill, I'd happily be doing that one too. And all the while part of me thinking that song should be retired already.

 

Cue 3shftgtr to come in and accuse me of retreating to a middle ground but again, the truth is the middle ground is where I started. Is it not possible to love something and mock it for its excesses at the same time?

[kmart]

In other words Lee, you don't think it funny to make fun of/take the piss out of some things and or people...they are, in your opinion, 'above' being mocked.

That's all well and good for you, but please. let's not make it out to be such a unspeakably horrible thing to do so.

Personally?
I disagree, as does the vast majority of the planet, given the relative success of numerous comedians & satirists throughout history who have made their entire careers off of doing just so.

And as far as this:

See? It's not the journalist, really. It's the bandwagon. This mistaken belief that if you can down something, somehow that puts you above it.

You're completely wrong on that, I assure you.
It's not that this type of humor or whatever you want to call it is based on bringing something down so that one can feel above it; it's about bringing it down from whatever pedastal so that it is seen at the same level as you or I or everyman.

In the end, Stairway is JUST A SONG.
Period.

[Lee Knight]

Great post Guido. I appreciate your candor. So...

...my torch. Maybe it's silly of me to even try to do this, but I can't help myself.

I think it's important for for those practicing a trade to respect that trade. Not in some sort of self serving worshiping manner as in, "I'm an artiste'!". That's not what I mean. I mean to look at what has gone before with respect. The very word "respect" seems to carry all sorts of baggage that I don't intend. I know, it sounds very "parental discipline". But that's not how I mean it.

So if a musician has taken the time to learn an instrument, well, most likely they've put in some serious time. And with that time, it's only natural to start picking up attitude. "I can do that!" "They SUCK!!!" "Page is so sloppy" "Disco SUCKS" On and on. I've seen it all and done a lot of it myself over my too many years. BUT...

...to be real in this field, to not just be a weekend warrior but a professional, means you step up your game in more ways than just your performance abilities. Finger pointing at established artists does only one thing. It guarantees the bush leagues for the finger pointer. See what I'm saying?

You think Paul McCartney rolls his eyes and says, "Stairway to Heaven?!?!?" Probably not. He most likely admires the bulletproof nature of the recording at this point. No, I'm not, or are any of us here, Paul McCartney. But to aspire to professionalism in attitude, including the way we talk about fellow artists, is important.

Really? Fellow artists? Why not?!?! Is that pretentious? I don't think so. It is taking yourself seriously (not too ) and admitting you might be a peer. If not now, someday. Any mocking etc. is just a way to mask fear of success. Of not taking ourselves seriously enough. So to me, it isn't a question of taking things too seriously, it's a question of not taking myself seriously enough. And that's where respect comes in. Respect for myself and for my fellow tradesman.

OK! Stepping down off the soapbox.

[Lee Knight]

See my above post. ^

In other words Lee, you don't think it funny to make fun of/take the piss out of some things and or people...they are, in your opinion, 'above' being mocked. That's all well and good for you, but please. let's not make it out to be such a unspeakably horrible thing to do so. Personally? I disagree, as does the vast majority of the planet, given the relative success of numerous comedians & satirists throughout history who have made their entire careers off of doing just so. And as far as this: You're completely wrong on that, I assure you. It's not that this type of humor or whatever you want to call it is based on bringing something down so that one can feel above it ; it's about bringing it down from whatever pedastal so that it is seen at the same level as you or I or everyman. In the end, Stairway is JUST A SONG . Period.

 

[TIMKEYS]

One of the things I like about being older is that I got to see rock and roll develop. Face it guitar players got better over time. A younger guitar player has a ton more to draw on than the first guys to come down the path. Slagging on the founders of rock isnt my style

[Vito Corleone]

Great post Guido. I appreciate your candor. So... ...my torch. Maybe it's silly of me to even try to do this, but I can't help myself. I think it's important for for those practicing a trade to respect that trade. Not in some sort of self serving worshiping manner as in, "I'm an artiste'!". That's not what I mean. I mean to look at what has gone before with respect. The very word "respect" seems to carry all sorts of baggage that I don't intend. I know, it sounds very "parental discipline". But that's not how I mean it. So if a musician has taken the time to learn an instrument, well, most likely they've put in some serious time. And with that time, it's only natural to start picking up attitude. "I can do that! " "They SUCK!!!" "Page is so sloppy" "Disco SUCKS" On and on. I've seen it all and done a lot of it myself over my too many years. BUT... ...to be real in this field, to not just be a weekend warrior but a professional, means you step up your game in more ways than just your performance abilities. Finger pointing at established artists does only one thing. It guarantees the bush leagues for the finger pointer. See what I'm saying? You think Paul McCartney rolls his eyes and says, "Stairway to Heaven?!?!?" Probably not. He most likely admires the bulletproof nature of the recording at this point. No, I'm not, or are any of us here, Paul McCartney. But to aspire to professionalism in attitude, including the way we talk about fellow artists, is important. Really? Fellow artists? Why not?!?! Is that pretentious? I don't think so. It is taking yourself seriously (not too ) and admitting you might be a peer. If not now, someday. Any mocking etc. is just a way to mask fear of success. Of not taking ourselves seriously enough. So to me, it isn't a question of taking things too seriously, it's a question of not taking myself seriously enough. And that's where respect comes in. Respect for myself and for my fellow tradesman. OK! Stepping down off the soapbox.

I agree with most of this. I'll just say I don't think the slams presented in the article or in my posts are disrespecting anyone's trade. And even if they were, Zeppelin and Stairway don't need MY respect. Clearly they get plenty of that from all quarters. Which is why I have no problem with someone taking even cheap pot-shots at them once in a while. As you said, they are bulletproof. And again, just like you're not defending those songs specifically, I don't think the article was meant as a potshot at those songs specifically as much as what they represent in ONE regard: the silly excesses of bombastic 70s rock. It doesn't take anything away from what makes those songs great to point out the excesses, just like I can love many disco songs but find the over-the-top string parts to be silly or the clothes people wore to be ridiculous. I love "Hotel California" and yet still totally agree with the author that THE EAGLES writing a song slamming the excesses of Hollywood and the music business is about as ironic as it comes. STILL a great song and great recording though. And Don Henley is STILL a twit. And one of the greatest rock vocalists of all time, IMO. All at the same time.

Your point about fingerpointing is spot on and about that I'll say this: For all my gazillion posts here I hope you never see me taking pot shots at my peers. I, at least never intentionally, have put down anyone's band or their achievements or their goals or their abilities. (well, RobeBoy is an exception, but that's for entirely different reasons....) I'm here to learn from other bands and pass on some tips of my own and hopefully I achieve that goal. And nothing gripes me quicker in my real life then when my bandmates take potshots at our peer bands in order to prop themselves up in their own esteem. But taking a shot or two at Zeppelin or the Eagles? If I were their peer, I would not. I only feel I have the license to do so because I'm nowhere NEAR what those bands are nor will ever be. Doing so neither raises me up nor lowers them down in my view because I'm simply not even in their league. But at the same time, simply because I'm not in their league doesn't mean they don't possess weaknesses that I feel I'm astute enough to be able to spot and can point out if I choose to. For McCartney to point out that Plant looked silly in tight pants would be lowering Sir Paul for sure. Because he's Plant's peer. But for me to do so? I'm just an outsider making an outsider's observation. I'm not in their circle. And not commenting on Plant's pants doesn't bring me any closer to it.

Is it a lack of respect for myself that I don't consider myself Jimmy Page's peer? No. I think it's just being realistic. Trust me. I've got plenty of ego and self-respect and will be the first to tell about the things I've done well and have been successful at. But to consider myself or any band I've ever been in to be a peer of Led Zeppelin? Sorry, even I can't muster up that much ego.

[Lee Knight]

Is it a lack of respect for myself that I don't consider myself Jimmy Page's peer? No. I think it's just being realistic. Trust me. I've got plenty of ego and self-respect and will be the first to tell about the things I've done well and have been successful at. But to consider myself or any band I've ever been in to be a peer of Led Zeppelin? Sorry, even I can't muster up that much ego.

Not really what I meant but that's fine.

[3shiftgtr]

But to consider myself or any band I've ever been in to be a peer of Led Zeppelin? Sorry, even I can't muster up that much ego.

I hear ya, no reason to get big headed. We've all dealt with those ego douchebags, eh?

But ya know......I haz me a philosophy....I can haz a place to say it too.....

A note doesn't know who is playing it, or in what song it is being played in, or who it is being played for. It is just a note. All musicians do is make and or play notes: vibrate air. At it's core, all any musician does is vibrate air. Maybe some visuals to entertain along with it. But at it's core, music. All an musician does is what any artist does. And it's value is almost ALWAYS individually subjective. Make music and then put that music out there. It is what we all do. THAT's what makes it humbling. Not that Zep sold millions, and I sold a thousand or so, but at it's core, it is the same thing. Write music, play music, maybe record it, and well, that's it. I'm a peer with every body who has ever played a note....ever. From Beethoven to my neighbor's Uncle Phil....who it took 3 weeks to finally get that G chord!

I've been lucky to meet and play with some huge stars in music. And this is the only way to look at it (for me of course) to not get intimidated. Cuz in the end, it's just notes, nothing else. And to play with some of these 'cats'?.....it's funny how there are some guys that are on this board would be more fun to play with and make better music than some of the "stars" I've played with. And while the 'stars' might not act like it in certain situations, they KNOW it. Deep inside, they are either insecure or humble. They know how fragile 'success' is in this biz, and that it is not really up to the artist....sales success is up to the listener(s). Yeah, some guys got "it" and some don't, but it's still just notes and respect for those notes.

This is just a personal philosophy and totally IMHO. Pretentious? Maybe......but so far, it is the best philosophy I can come up with.

"We can't get thru the day without 1 or 2 good rationalizations." Jeff Goldblum's character in The Big Chill.

Now back to our regularly scheduled back and forth about whatever the hell it is we are doinking about.....

[Vito Corleone]

 

I I've been lucky to meet and play with some huge stars in music. And this is the only way to look at it (for me of course) to not get intimidated. Cuz in the end, it's just notes, nothing else. And to play with some of these 'cats'?.....it's funny how there are some guys that are on this board would be more fun to play with and make better music than some of the "stars" I've played with. And while the 'stars' might not act like it in certain situations, they KNOW it. Deep inside, they are either insecure or humble. They know how fragile 'success' is in this biz, and that it is not really up to the artist....sales success is up to the listener(s). Yeah, some guys got "it" and some don't, but it's still just notes and respect for those notes.

 

 

I've never been intimated to meet or play with anyone because, at the end of the day, we're all just people with our own flaws and insecurities. (which goes to point about not putting bands like Zeppelin up on such pedestals.) But at the same time, were I to ever meet Jimmy Page---yeah, it would be totally cool if he took the attitude of "hey, man, you play music--great! we're all in this together!" But if I went up to him with the same attitude and he came back with "dude...you play in a cover band...I was in freakin' Led Zeppelin!", it might make him a bit of a jerk, but he'd be right. And I might have been a bit out of my place for taking the "we're peers, dude!" attitude with him in the first place. And, bottomline, who would be the only one of the two of us who could control that situation? Mr. Page. The fact the he would have the vast bulk of the power to set the tone of our exchange would be proof-positive that we are, in fact, NOT peers. He could be magnanimous and let me into his circle if he chose; I'd have nothing to say about it one way or the other really.

 

So yeah, while I totally get your point and respect your philosophy about how we're all just musicians who vibrate air, the reality is somewhat different, isn't it?

 

I don't think your philosophy is pretentious. I just think it might a be step-or-two removed from the real world.

[3shiftgtr]

So yeah, while I totally get your point and respect your philosophy about how we're all just musicians who vibrate air, the reality is somewhat different, isn't it? I don't think your philosophy is pretentious. I just think it might a be step-or-two removed from the real world.

 

 

It is not that we are just people etc, it is that ALL of that goes away the moment you start playing. ALL of it. Every bit of whatever...stardom...the power that goes along with success...the 'real world' as you say...ALL of it. The miniute you start playing, it is about what you do with those notes. I've been there, played, hung out, had the conversations after; it is a philosophy based on my EXPERIENCE. It has come about from having to deal with the real world of the music biz.

[pickinatit]

And it's not the song that I am slamming. Look, I think the problem becomes that the world is not simple black-and-white and I personally view next to nothing in the world in such terms. Part of me loves those old songs I grew up with and part of me says "let's move on already!" Obviously there's room in the world for both classic rock and new stuff. And there's also room for people to say Jimmy Page is the greatest guitarist who ever lived and for people to say "let's retire that song". And I find truth in both views and all the others that exist in between . Is the author being a twit by so easily dismissing these songs by saying let's retire them? Of course. But it similarly twitish, IMO, to dismiss the dismissal. Again...lighten up, take a step back and look for the truth in all viewpoints rather than getting our backs up because somebody else takes what seems to be a definative stance.

I bet it takes you all day to decide what restaurant to go to that night and a half hour to decide what flavor Ice Cream you want!! ( I joke, I joke )

[Vito Corleone]

 

It is not that we are just people etc, it is that ALL of that goes away the moment you start playing. ALL of it. Every bit of whatever...stardom...the power that goes along with success...the 'real world' as you say...ALL of it. The miniute you start playing, it is about what you do with those notes. I've been there, played, hung out, had the conversations after; it is a philosophy based on my EXPERIENCE. It has come about from having to deal with the real world of the music biz.

 

 

You've probably played with bigger cats than I have. It's entirely possible that I'm not even YOUR peer. If you want to let me into your circle, thank you very much. But are you 100% certain that I've earned that regard?

[kmart]

Look, Jimmy Page may be partially responsible for some of the greatest, most important rock music ever, and have been in the greatest rock band of all time, but that doesn't change the fact that he puts his pants on one leg at a time just like you or I would (Only his are likely more flared and have cool sparkly dragons & wizards embroidered on them).

Obviously TMI, but he's just another guy who at the end of the day wants to look at some niche fetish porn just like anybody else does...
When the world wants a killer guitar riff, if they have the connections, they ask a guy who knows a guy who calls Page. But when Page wants some specific smut, he asks a guy who knows a guy who calls me.

[Vito Corleone]

I bet it takes you all day to decide what restaurant to go to that night and a half hour to decide what flavor Ice Cream you want!! ( I joke, I joke )

 

That's what I have a wife for.

[Vito Corleone]

I bet it takes you all day to decide what restaurant to go to that night and a half hour to decide what flavor Ice Cream you want!! ( I joke, I joke )

 

But more seriously....I reject this view that many people have (I know you were joking) that to be a centrist is to be indecisive or without convictions. Nothing could be further from the truth. From my point of view anyway, those with hardcore ideological positions are incapable of seeing the bigger picture and are lacking some major cognitive skills.

 

I believe that, in most situtations, the Truth lies in the middle. Page is neither completely a guitar God to whom all other musicians should bow nor is he nothing but a wasted leftover from the hippie era. Truth is, he's a bit of both and lies somewhere in the middle of those two extremes. It's neither Kenysian nor Austrian economic philosophies that are the best for America; the truth lies in a balance of those two extremes. I agree with many of the goals and views of both the Tea Party and the Occupy Wall Street movement, even though both over-reach in many regards. I don't need to decide I love Mocha Almond Fudge and only order that every time I go get ice cream. I prefer to try something different and new whenever possible and keep an open mind.

 

Which isn't to say one shouldn't take a stand at either extreme and make an argument. I do that all the time on many issues (as you've all seen me do here.) I believe the Greater Truth can only be reached by arguing from the extremes and then finding the Truth in the common ground. And unless we hear the extreme arguments, we'll likely never find the Greater Truth.

 

At least that's MY philosophy.

[wades_keys]

I'm only pointing out how transparent it is to mock things that are so far beyond the mocker's capabilities. Who does it serve? The finger pointer.

And here's the thing too. I love good comedy. And yes, good comedians break things down, they mock. But last time I checked, the author of that piece is not a comedian.

His audience expects journalism. But he gives them mocking "comedy" instead?

There's a time and a place for comedy. But I can't defend any journalist that resorts to base behavior such as mocking to make his point. That's just juvenile.

And it's also TIRED. This style of writing is pervasive - it's everywhere. A good music journalist should know his {censored}, and should use that knowledge to, you know, maybe pass along some information or informed opinion based on that. Or is that too much to ask?

If I read an article on the economy in the Wall Street Journal, my expectation is that the writer has knowledge of economics. Even an op-ed piece in such a publication is expected to demonstrate knowledge that supports the opinion.

But not so with "rock" journalism. No, apparently it is okay to continue to follow the tired-ass pattern of mocking that which is no longer trendy or "cool".

[3shiftgtr]

You've probably played with bigger cats than I have. It's entirely possible that I'm not even YOUR peer. If you want to let me into your circle, thank you very much. But are you 100% certain that I've earned that regard?

 

 

I'll play with anybody....even you G:wave:....But the point is that it doesn't matter once the music starts....what happens when we play is what matters.....not before, not after.

[JailTime]

I consider pot shots at musicians and music such as this a form of envy, and therefore high praise. If anyone ever has an underhanded comment about me, my band or music, and is egregious enough to publicize it, I thank them. Also, I thought this was mildly amusing. Funny, no, but a nice little diversion.