"Stairway To Heaven" turns 40 today....

[Vito Corleone]

Am I being smug? I didn't think so. I mean smug = self satisfied. This irks me beyond all imagination. It is elitist bull{censored}. I'm arguing to let each make their own choice about what is culturally relevant. Perhaps a little too vehemently... granted, but smug? Well, perhaps. I'll tone that down. But my point is, damn... what arrogance on the part of the journalist. I absolutely hate that kind of thinking.

 

That's fair of course. But such smugness is pretty typical of a lot of journalism these days. For better or worse, displaying such attitude is the bar-for-entry it seems.

 

But being broadly dismissive of works of art and culture that we dislike by taking an elitist attitude isn't anything new. Is saying "Stairway" should be retired any more elitist than saying "'Moves Like Jagger' makes me want to kick Adam Levine in the balls"?

 

And I'm 100% positive that "Stairway" and those other tunes aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Regardless of what any individual writer may think. At least not while those of us alive in 1971 remain so, anyway.

[vanlatte]

 

Am I being smug? I didn't think so.

 

 

I don't think so, in fact I agree with every thing you have said so far. The idea of retiring any piece of music is absurd at best.

[Lee Knight]

That's fair of course. But such smugness is pretty typical of a lot of journalism these days. For better or worse, displaying such attitude is the bar-for-entry it seems. But being broadly dismissive of works of art and culture that we dislike by taking an elitist attitude isn't anything new. Is saying "Stairway" should be retired any more elitist than saying "'Moves Like Jagger' makes me want to kick Adam Levine in the balls"? And I'm 100% positive that "Stairway" and those other tunes aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Regardless of what any individual writer may think. At least not while those of us alive in 1971 remain so, anyway.

 

 

Senseless murder and rape isn't new either but I still manage to get worked up about that too. No, I'm not equating prickish journalism with rape or murder or Hitler. What bothers me is some here jumping on that mentality bandwagon. Those that can't do complain and criticize. I'll just leave it at that.

[wades_keys]

I used to play Twinkle Twinkle Little Star on the piano for my grandma. She loved it too.

[wades_keys]

 

Do you really think "Stairway" is going to live on because the melody and the guitar solo is so wonderful? That generations of grandmas are going to continue to revel in their grandkids performing it for them?

 

1st question: Yeah, I pretty much do.

 

2nd question: Only if they let the song speak for itself as a piece of music, and not a representative of something that grandma was never a part of. When my grandma heard zep's version she barely recognized it.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Those that can't do complain and criticize.

 

 

So perhaps we should retire criticism pieces?

[vanlatte]

 

So perhaps we should retire criticism pieces?

 

 

If only.

[wades_keys]

So perhaps we should retire criticism pieces?

Can I retire only after criticizing your criticism?

[dparr]

"Taurus" (the song that STH was ripped off from) is 44 years old.

[MartinC]

http://www.last.fm/music/London+Symphony+Orchestra/_/Stairway+to+Heaven

 

 

 

Let me put it another way. I don't think this article is even meant to be a "music criticism" piece. I don't think the writer even presents himself as a music critic. It's a cultural piece. But if you think these great classics (which I love too, BTW. I'm a big Zeppelin, Eagles and Joel fan. It has nothing to do with that one way or the other) remain such because of whatever superior musicality that they might possess--let's try to imagine that we "retire" only the original recorded versions of the songs and allow only covers and other re-interpretations of them to live on. Like how, say, classical music continues to exist. How long do you think these classics would remain popular? Do you really think "Stairway" is going to live on because the melody and the guitar solo is so wonderful? That generations of grandmas are going to continue to revel in their grandkids performing it for them?

 

[Vito Corleone]

 

1st question: Yeah, I pretty much do.

 

 

Well, you and I will never know because we won't live long enough to find out but if past history is any clue, I find that to be unlikely. There was a lot of great music written and recorded in the 20s, 30s and 40s and most seems to be dying away along with the generations that grew up with it. Sure, there are a few people who discover it and enjoy it (like me) years later but not in nearly enough numbers to really keep it alive. Sure, we all have the stories about how somebody's kid loved hearing some old song or how they are a big Zeppelin fan or whatever, but the truth is that if they loved that music as much as the generation that grew up with it they'd A) be buying the music in greater numbers and B) we'd see that style of music better represented in the modern stuff newer musicians are writing. But we don't.

 

When I was starting out playing music I loved Elvis and Buddy Holly and had a great respect for what that music meant in the history of rock. But did I love it so much that it had a big influence on the stuff I was doing at the time? No. Did my love for that respect over ride any connection I had for modern stuff at the time? Not even close. Some kids may have a connection to some older stuff, and that's great. But could it ever be anything that even remotely approaches what those of us who grew up with the stuff feel? I don't see it.

 

 

2nd question: Only if they let the song speak for itself as a piece of music, and not a representative of something that grandma was never a part of. When my grandma heard zep's version she barely recognized it.

 

 

And how do you think that is going to happen? How do you believe these songs, as individual pieces of music, will be handed down from generation to generation? Cover bands?

[wades_keys]

 

Well, you and I will never know because we won't live long enough to find out but if past history is any clue, I find that to be unlikely. There was a lot of great music written and recorded in the 20s, 30s and 40s and most seems to be dying away along with the generations that grew up with it.

 

The media itself died: wax cylinders, 78's, etc. Even tape is now rotting away. Many old movies were lost in this way too, before the studios understood how to archive the films.

 

That need no longer be the case, with music being stored digitally.

 

Also are you aware of the music genome project?

 

Music will live on. In past times it lived on through sheet music. Now it will live on in its original recorded form, spurred on by apps like SoundHound and other projects that build off of the music genome database.

 

In fact, you'll find a greater access now than ever before to music from the 20's, 30's and 40's, as individuals and traders go online and keep the music online, even when the so-called recording industry takes most of their catalog "out of print" after 20 years or so.

[Vito Corleone]

 

If only.

 

 

Hmmm... so which is it....

 

Should I find the idea of retiring anything invalid? Or just the idea of retiring things I personally like? Or just music? I guess I'm confused.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Now it will live on in its original recorded form.

 

 

So it's NOT about the music itself, in some sort of wonderful melody that your grandma loved, but about Led Zeppelin's performance of it that will live on and makes it so special?

 

What makes you think future generations, beyond history buffs maybe, are going to find anything special in old recordings? Like I said, we don't see that happening in any great numbers for music of generations already gone by. So what is going to make a 1971 recording of "Stairway to Heaven" so special?

[Vito Corleone]

 

The media itself died: wax cylinders, 78's, etc. Even tape is now rotting away. Many old movies were lost in this way too, before the studios understood how to archive the films.

 

 

That's nonsense. There are PLENTLY of old recordings and movies that have survived. You can download MP3s of recordings from the 1920s and 30s all day long. That music still exists. It's just there isn't anyone much under 100 who wants to hear it.

[Lee Knight]

So perhaps we should retire criticism pieces?

Ah...Guido. Your line of argument gets used a lot in reacting to the point I'm making. But...

I'm not damning criticism. I'm damning those that critique with an assuredness and arrogance that is unjustified. To me, good criticism comes with a dash of humility. If someone, usually me around here, is reacting to a crass, insensitive criticism of a piece of art or artist, the typical point then made is that I believe criticism shouldn't exist. Or that I'm pigheaded enough to believe any criticism with an opposing view is wrong. But that isn't what I feel at all.

My point about those who can not do... critisze... I think that's a valid complaint. The saying is overstated to make a point. Not everyone who can't do, turns into a critic. It's just that it's uncanny how often it's true. They either critique professionally or they rag about this artist or that artist around places like this. And usually coming from the less qualified practitioners of the particular art form. They seem to go hand in hand.

As if they are painting their opinions in gilded script. (Is that what I'm doing now, in your eyes?)

[vanlatte]

 

Hmmm... so which is it.... Should I find the idea of retiring anything invalid? Or just the idea of retiring things I personally like? Or just music? I guess I'm confused.

 

 

These questions are so unbelievably stupid that I am going to write them off as rhetorical.

[Lee Knight]

Hmmm... so which is it.... Should I find the idea of retiring anything invalid? Or just the idea of retiring things I personally like? Or just music? I guess I'm confused.

 

 

I guess you are confused. Yes, the idea of retiring a piece of art is invalid. Yes. Don't be confused about it. Yes. Invalid.

 

Edit: You beat me to it Van...

[Vito Corleone]

Ah... Guido . Your line of argument gets used a lot in reacting to the point I'm making. But... I'm not damning criticism. I'm damning those that critique with an assuredness and arrogance that is unjustified. To me, good criticism comes with a dash of humility. If someone, usually me around here, is reacting to a crass, insensitive criticism of a piece of art or artist, the typical point then made is that I believe criticism shouldn't exist. Or that I'm pigheaded enough to believe any criticism with an opposing view is wrong. But that isn't what I feel at all.

 

And I agree with most of what you're saying, actually. Defending THIS particular piece isn't something I'm that hot on doing. But I DO get a sense of people being offended because it's an attack on a song THEY like here. Which that ALONE makes me want to defend it. For some it might do them well to have enough humility to realize that just because something is a cherished classic from THEIR youth doesn't necessarily make it anything special...

 

My point about those who can not do... critisze... I think that's a valid complaint. The saying is overstated to make a point. Not everyone who can't do, turns into a critic. It's just that it's uncanny how often it's true. They either critique professionally or they rag about this artist or that artist around places like this. And usually coming from the less qualified practitioners of the particular art form. They seem to go hand in hand.

 

That's a complaint I've heard for years from all sorts of people about all sorts of criticism. While, as a musician, I can relate to it, I also can't get past the big dose of sour grapes I hear in those remarks. When somebody's sensitivities are hurt about their work of "art", "who the hell are YOU to criticize ME??" is often the first reaction. My reaction to that is always...hey, if you don't want to hear the criticism than maybe don't put it out there in the first place.

 

But I will repeat what I said earlier: if music criticisms were written only for other musicians, than I would expect and DEMAND that the critics be musicians themselves. But since they are meant for the average music fan, who usually doesn't really know music from a pizza pie, I'm not sure approaching the criticism from a strictly musical perspective is even relevant let alone required.

[Vito Corleone]

 

These questions are so unbelievably stupid that I am going to write them off as rhetorical.

 

 

Of course they are rhetorical. Or, at the very least, hyperbole used to make a point. As was the initial comment about "retiring" these old songs. You don't really think the author actually meant they should somehow be done away with, do you?

[wades_keys]

Arguments on behalf of hope are easily felled by the rationalizations of the cynical.

That said, the fact that, as you say, music from the past IS available online certainly speaks to a demand of sorts.

It's axiomatic that file sharers generally share that which will be downloaded.

And I agree with Lee and 3rdShift about the nature of criticism. As with opinions - there is informed criticism and there is un-informed criticism.

Now let me criticize your point of view:

But I will repeat what I said earlier: if music criticisms were written only for other musicians, than I would expect and DEMAND that the critics be musicians themselves. But since they are meant for the average music fan, who usually doesn't really know music from a pizza pie, I'm not sure approaching the criticism from a strictly musical perspective is even relevant let alone required.

Sure Guido - let's just give the "average" music fan uninformed emotional rhetoric. Clearly, no average music fan is interested in actually, you know, LEARNING something about music. Clearly.

So let's just dumb it all down to things that they WILL understand. Like pizza. Or empty rhetoric that pretends to understand and identify with some aspect of "culture".

That's the ticket.

[modulusman]

I was hoping that "staying alive" would fade into obscurity.:poke: Unfortunately there are wedding bands out there playing that drivel.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Arguments on behalf of hope are easily felled by the rationalizations of the cynical. That said, the fact that, as you say, music from the past IS available online certainly speaks to a demand of sorts. It's axiomatic that file shares generally share that which will be downloaded.

 

 

Of course there will always be SOME demand. But the demand is largely by those who grew up with the music. Once that generation passes the demand decreases considerably. Sure, there will be music buffs who are interested in the history and a few general fans who re-discover an old genre but...beyond that? Who in great numbers is downloading "Charleston" or Al Jolson? I'd question whether it is enough people to actually consider that music to still be "alive". How many people under 30 have ever heard it or even OF it?

 

So what happens when, instead of being 40 years old, "Stairway" is 100 years old? Will it be MORE alive and relevant than Jolson is today? Or will it just be a relic of by-gone era? Sure, it would be nice to say it will have greater musical significance. I'm just not sure how. I'm not sure the original recordings are enough. In fact, I'd argue they won't be.

 

What are the old songs that manage to live on now? Stuff that somehow manages to get revived: classical pieces and old show tunes. "Glee" was doing songs from "West Side Story" last night. As long as theater groups are performing that show, it will remain relevant. A lot of people know the songs from "South Pacific" or "Oklahoma!" But it isn't the Original Cast Recording that is keeping it alive. Will theater groups be doing "Songs of Led Zeppelin" in the future? Is that even how you would want that music to be remembered?

 

So we're back to the culture vs. the music argument. If "Stairway" needs the original Zeppelin recording to stick around, my guess is it won't. The recording is a cultural artifact. Every passing year makes it more dated. It will take something more. The London Symphony Orchestra performing it? A Cirque du Soleil show featuring the music of Led Zeppelin? Perhaps. But I suspect even those things are geared largely to the aging fans of the original piece. I'm sure parents are dragging their kids to see "The Beatles' Love" show in Vegas. But how many would shell out 80 bucks to go on their own? I dunno. I'm pretty sure those musical-act-themed CdS shows are designed to specifically target a particular audience and age group.

 

Who knows what will happen in the future. Maybe there WILL be some big revival of old recordings that has never happened before. Or maybe songs not written specifically to be performed by any number of artists other than the original artist (i.e. showtunes and classical music) will find new avenues of performance. Just haven't really seen that happen yet.

 

But anything's possible. Here's to the future!

[Vito Corleone]

I was hoping that "staying alive" would fade into obscurity.:poke: Unfortunately there are wedding bands out there playing that drivel.

 

 

But feel free to add that to the list of songs that should be retired. I'll vote along with you!

[wades_keys]

Here's the thing.

 

Influence ONE musician, and that one musician can THEN influence the public.

 

That's kind of what happened with a lot of the jazz cats, especially later period when club attendance was waning.

 

Also Jaco P. Think of the massive influence that cat had on bass players of every stripe. Who cares that the "average" person doesn't know him or his music. They've heard his influence.

 

And you asked about cover bands?

 

One of Jaco's first influences was a cat named Carlos Garcia. He played in cover bands in the Ft. Lauderdale area.

 

The point? Every action has some reaction, some influence on the matrix of humanity that is beyond our comprehension.

 

So when some average person is listening to a Justin Timberlake song with Kevin Brandon on bass, he's hearing in an indirect way the jazz and classical influences of Brandino. When some average cat listens to Jimmy Page's best work, he's hearing the influence of John McLaughlin, Big Bill Broonzy and others.

 

And on it goes.