Members etcetra Posted November 24, 2011 Members Share Posted November 24, 2011 So me and my friends have been playing/leading bands that do really interesting stuff.. and while we do get a strong following from small groups of people I've come to realize that often times what we do don't necessary have a large commercial appeal. I've noticed that about a lot of other bands I really enjoy listening too their music is really unique and they have very high level of musicianship, and yet they have hard time reaching audience beyond their own circle (who tend to be musicians themselves). I guess my question is, how many of you guys here felt like they were playing in a band they really believed in and loved, but realized that ultimately you'll be doing it for fun and probably nothing more? Do you still play with them, and what is your feeling about doing these groups in the long term? Do you still have the same conviction you had when you started, or did it wear off after long years of not feeling like going anywhere? Or did you realize in retrospect that it wasn't as special as you thought it to be, or quit the music only to realize how special it was? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ggm1960 Posted November 24, 2011 Members Share Posted November 24, 2011 Either way it's kind of sad that these musicians and reduced to doing other gigs and the moments when they really shine are used buried and somewhat obscured. There are a lot sadder things in life than not getting accolades for being a good musician. As soon as you feel like you deserve recognition for being able to plunk strings on a wood plank you've already failed. Put the instruments away and try something else. Around here a great Harley mechanic is always going to be more popular than a great musician simply because there are far less of the former than there are of the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members emaster Posted November 24, 2011 Members Share Posted November 24, 2011 I don't know. First of all, you make it sound like playing in bookstores, etc. is a bad thing - I don't think that's necessarily the case. I have attended huge concerts with an audience of 30,000 people and I've visited and even played really small shows with maybe 30 people in front of the stage. There are great differences, of course, but still I think each type of show has its own vibe or feel to it. Besides, I don't think some people only play in bookstores just because they don't get enough recognition or chances, but also because they might not be able or willing to invest all the work that is needed to play the really big shows. I guess a lot of people don't realize that this takes way more work and commitment than one might expect. It's like inventing a brand or a product and getting it manufactured and sold all over the world. After all, like ggm1960 said, playing an instrument or playing in a band should not be about wanting recognition or wanting to the play the really big shows. I've played soccer ever since I was a little kid - if playing in the "Bundesliga" (the German type of MLS) had been my goal, I probably would have quit at the age of 10. It's about fun. It's about doing something that you like and that ultimately might even help you express yourself or provide some sort of self-therapy for some people. Personally, if I was a professional musician and earned enough to make a living out of that - I'd be more than happy about it. Even if I played shows in little bookstores and had 95% of the people forget what I looked like after each show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rangefinder Posted November 24, 2011 Members Share Posted November 24, 2011 As a Harvard grad who is now stocking shelves overnight for a living, I'm afraid I don't have much sympathy for a musician not getting "proper" recognition for whatever obscure, artsy "under-rated" music he may be playing. As for talent, I've had more raw talent than >99% of the people in whatever fields I've pursued over the course of my life. Guess what - nobody cares. Deliver a product that somebody will give you $$ for, or GFTO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted November 24, 2011 Members Share Posted November 24, 2011 Well, now you're getting into art vs commerce, a dead-end argument that has no resolution. Art is always more fun to play, for me anyway. And it always pays less than commercial stuff does. We need both, IMO. Art pushes and expands boundaries, and then commerce comes along and hammers it into something accessible to the public. Every music movement starts out as inaccessible to the general public. John Coltrane produces a Dave Brubek. The Sex Pistols produce a Weezer or Green day. Curtis Blow and Spoony G produced MC Hammer and the Wu Tang clan. Etc etc etc. It's easy to cap on "artistes", but without them, music would stagnate. But I agree, anyone expecting to make money or recognition off of less accessible art is in for a rude awakening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members etcetra Posted November 25, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 25, 2011 I don't know why this discussion is becoming about artists deserving recognition, because that was not my point for posting this. I just wanted hear other people share about their experiences playing in a band that they truly believed in, even though you realize the music you do may not 'go anywhere' so to speak... or whether you gave up on such projects because your money gigs took over your life and you no longer have the time to do so. I admire the passion and effort that goes into playing music like that, often times spending your own money to make CDs and do different projects.. but I'd also imagine you have doubts along the way too. The reason I mentioned the recognition part is to show that in the end your music do get appreciated, even if it's few people that knows more about music. I thought maybe there are people here who suddenly got recognition for their work totally unexpected, which is pleasant surprise(which is what happened to my some of the friends). Or maybe there are other people who realized in retrospect that the music they believe in wasn't as meaningful as they thought it was. anyways, like I said this thread has turned into something totally different than what I hoped...to be clear, I am not asking for sympathy for artists or asking that they get more recognition, I just wanted to hear other people's accounts from people who has 'been there' or who's doing the same thing right now. Rangefinder, Considering that you have more talent than most people.. I hope you do better than stocking shelves... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted November 25, 2011 Members Share Posted November 25, 2011 I don't know why this discussion is becoming about artists deserving recognition, because that was not my point for posting this. well, yeah, it kind of is, even if you don't realize it, because that's what it comes down to ultimately. Money gigs are rarely in bands where you're playing what makes you truly happy. It's that way for me, certainly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted November 25, 2011 Members Share Posted November 25, 2011 With me it's been: looking back in retrospect and realizing it wasn't as special as I thought at the time. But when I analyze why I feel this way, it usually comes down to not being in the "moment" anymore. As in, I felt that way because of the pleasures that come in the moments making the music. But what's cool, is when I go back and listen to tunes I played where I KNOW I was having pleasure and playing freely (I guess "freely" means "well"), I'm not often disappointed with MY playing in those moments. It's usually based on hearing someone else's defects. In the past, I would hear more of my defects and less of those free moments. Not to say I don't have defects or musically bland moments. It's just that there are more of the "free" moments than before, and they are standing up more and more to the test of time. So I can honestly say I have no regrets or disappointments. I've met two goals of mine which were setup so that at the end of the day I can have satisfaction and no chaos in my life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wardjames Posted November 25, 2011 Members Share Posted November 25, 2011 If I had an unlimited amount of time, I would have, in addition to my top 40 country cover band, a more musically challenging western swing group, because that's my favorite style of music. But I wouldn't want to do that without also having a more popular "money" band, because I'd get frustrated about not posing in front of many people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chadd Posted November 25, 2011 Members Share Posted November 25, 2011 In fact, he is actually known for being a sideman for other bands, which IMO aren't that interesting to listen to musically(in fact he complains about the quality of the music in private). The vast majority of the public doesn't want to think about music, or be challenged, they want to be entertained. Familiarity and accessibility is what creates entertainment for most people. If you're pushing the limits, there can't be many fans of what you're creating. If for no other reason than they haven't heard anything like it before, and it takes time to process and become familiar. Small steps, evolution over revolution, is the key to success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators BATCAT Posted November 25, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 25, 2011 Well, now you're getting into art vs commerce, a dead-end argument that has no resolution. Art is always more fun to play, for me anyway. And it always pays less than commercial stuff does. We need both, IMO. Art pushes and expands boundaries, and then commerce comes along and hammers it into something accessible to the public. Every music movement starts out as inaccessible to the general public. John Coltrane produces a Dave Brubek. The Sex Pistols produce a Weezer or Green day. Curtis Blow and Spoony G produced MC Hammer and the Wu Tang clan. Etc etc etc. It's easy to cap on "artistes", but without them, music would stagnate. But I agree, anyone expecting to make money or recognition off of less accessible art is in for a rude awakening. There are the kind of posts I miss when you're not around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MartinC Posted November 25, 2011 Members Share Posted November 25, 2011 I played in a flamenco dance school for four or five years for 20.00 an hour, 10 hours or so a week. Then I played in a flamenco dance company for two years-there was little money in it. One day, I was playing for the teacher I worked for at her student show-a freebie. Now I really loved to play for flamenco dance-the music is incredible and the girls..........well let's just say you have plenty to keep your eyes busy. The music was also an unending challenge. Since I'm essentially a foreigner with only modest talent in this spanish art, I could never have expected to be a professional, or even approach the level of the spanish pros without totally selling out and moving to Spain. Was not gonna happen. Kinda like being a blues player from Japan. You could be decent, good even, but your never going to be BB King. Anyway, as I get to the student show, the teacher showed up and asked me to help with her dresses. So, here I am, running across the street in Berkeley, CA with a handfull of dresses, and it hit me-WTF am I doing? I'd been in full time bands, played guitar for 25 years, played a few thousand paying gigs, could play several styles decently, and I'm running across the street carrying dresses going to a free gig. The next day I called an agent a friend had recommended and told him about my four piece. After sending him a tape, he booked us for new years' eve 2000. Paid us a ton of money. Soon after I left the flamenco scene. I still miss it, and now the group is not working much and I'm often tempted to go to the school, which will lead to the gigs, but I somehow don't make the move. I still practice flamenco at home often. And I gig with the group whenever the agent calls. It's not so much that there's no money in it. It's the time commitment, and if I'm being really honest, my pride. After so many years of playing, I hate the idea of being considered an amateur. I guess my question is, how many of you guys here felt like they were playing in a band they really believed in and loved, but realized that ultimately you'll be doing it for fun and probably nothing more? Do you still play with them, and what is your feeling about doing these groups in the long term? Do you still have the same conviction you had when you started, or did it wear off after long years of not feeling like going anywhere? Or did you realize in retrospect that it wasn't as special as you thought it to be, or quit the music only to realize how special it was?Either way it's kind of sad that these musicians and reduced to doing other gigs and the moments when they really shine are used buried and somewhat obscured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 3shiftgtr Posted November 25, 2011 Members Share Posted November 25, 2011 I don't know why this discussion is becoming about artists deserving recognition, because that was not my point for posting this. I just wanted hear other people share about their experiences playing in a band that they truly believed in, even though you realize the music you do may not 'go anywhere' so to speak... or whether you gave up on such projects because your money gigs took over your life and you no longer have the time to do so. I admire the passion and effort that goes into playing music like that, often times spending your own money to make CDs and do different projects.. but I'd also imagine you have doubts along the way too.The reason I mentioned the recognition part is to show that in the end your music do get appreciated, even if it's few people that knows more about music. I thought maybe there are people here who suddenly got recognition for their work totally unexpected, which is pleasant surprise(which is what happened to my some of the friends). Or maybe there are other people who realized in retrospect that the music they believe in wasn't as meaningful as they thought it was. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: a life in art takes many forms. The reason I make music is to be able to make the music I love, which is a genre that appeals to like, 3 people. But I love those 3. Oh wait....one died..... Anyway, after a while, you realize that it is about THE MUSIC. Not this music, or that music, or whatever. It is just about THE MUSIC. Do I get more satisfaction from the crazy fusion stuff? Sure! That's what got me started doing ANY of this stuff. But I wake up everyday dealing with G chords and simple pop stuff. Dealing with that stuff is how I make bank. But while the weird stuff lands in a special place in my heart, the other stuff has equally important spots. A great friend of mine had the good fortune to have famous banjo/acoustic musician John Hartford as his mentor. He told me that Hartford's thing was "Next." It wasn't about what he did, it was about what he was doing now, and what was next. He didn't worry about cultivating a recognizable whatever, or developing his brand, or whatever. People would talk to him about his records and he couldn't remember what he played or even what songs! He could remember the players tho'! And to that point, I find that if I am really concentrating on weird, difficult freak out stuff, the simple pop stuff seems weirdly satisfying. And if I am doing a bunch of the pop stuff, the fusion freak out is needed to keep my compass needle straight. So I just do what ever is in front of me, and keep answering the muse. Do what I need to AND what I want to. Cuz it is all good!!! The other half of it is that no one gives a {censored} about what I do. I can release a butt flute suite, and you know, good for me. And I like it that way. A friend of mine who is a killer self promoter gets on to me about not having a big enough "international presence". But that would nail me down....I've already seen the "big stage"...meh....it's fine...I just want to make music, see my kids every day, follow the muse, and let the chips fall where they may. And just make a {censored}pile of great music before they pull the plug! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted November 25, 2011 Members Share Posted November 25, 2011 Got a buddy that's kind of in that situation but he doesn't see it. He's a really accomplished guitarist but is only interested in performing complicated pro-rock pieces--------Deep Purple (Steve Morse) and the like. He get's really annoyed because he can't find gigs. Fact is, that genre has very limited appeal. Most folks (like it or not) are much happier listening to Sweet Home Alabama performed by a decent classic rock band. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted November 25, 2011 Members Share Posted November 25, 2011 Got a buddy that's kind of in that situation but he doesn't see it. He's a really accomplished guitarist but is only interested in performing complicated pro-rock pieces--------Deep Purple (Steve Morse) and the like. He get's really annoyed because he can't find gigs. Fact is, that genre has very limited appeal. Most folks (like it or not) are much happier listening to Sweet Home Alabama performed by a decent classic rock band. One of the biggest problems is that musicians probably support live music less than any other art form supports their own. I would imagine far more writers buy books, far more painters go to art shows than musicians go to see other live bands. Appealing only to afficianados of a certain genre can be really tough in this business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted November 25, 2011 Members Share Posted November 25, 2011 One of the biggest problems is that musicians probably support live music less than any other art form supports their own. I would imagine far more writers buy books, far more painters go to art shows than musicians go to see other live bands. Appealing only to afficianados of a certain genre can be really tough in this business. You know, that is an excellent point. Just my opinion, but one thing I encounter a lot is other musicians being very critical of each other rather than just enjoying the damn show. My buddy I spoke of CANNOT watch another guitarist without ripping into whatever he/she's doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members timrocker Posted November 26, 2011 Members Share Posted November 26, 2011 The vast majority of the public doesn't want to think about music, or be challenged, they want to be entertained. Familiarity and accessibility is what creates entertainment for most people. If you're pushing the limits, there can't be many fans of what you're creating. If for no other reason than they haven't heard anything like it before, and it takes time to process and become familiar. Small steps, evolution over revolution, is the key to success. That is really, really well put. If I had a printer, that would be going up on my wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ido1957 Posted November 26, 2011 Members Share Posted November 26, 2011 Try being a symphony orchestra musician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members troyguitar Posted November 26, 2011 Members Share Posted November 26, 2011 Try being a symphony orchestra musician. Hey, they get paid decently if it's a good band. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 3shiftgtr Posted November 27, 2011 Members Share Posted November 27, 2011 The vast majority of the public doesn't want to think about music, or be challenged, they want to be entertained. Familiarity and accessibility is what creates entertainment for most people. If you're pushing the limits, there can't be many fans of what you're creating. If for no other reason than they haven't heard anything like it before, and it takes time to process and become familiar. Small steps, evolution over revolution, is the key to success. On one hand I agree. Hard to be a millionaire musician if the only people who like your music are music lovers. But on the other hand, it is NEW that gets sold. We see GaGa as a Madonna retread. But we are musicians. For most, she is a crazy mix of performance art, fashion as art, social statement, and dance music, and that is a REVOLUTION in today's music hip hop and R&B based biz.... Madonna was a revolution in her day.....created a new model of imaging that set a standard. I mean, M. Jackson was a total revolution too....broadway style dance numbers in long form video, using a funk/dance hybrid at a time when guitars, and long haired high pitched singers ruled the airwaves. And in the middle of all that Springsteen's combination of 50's style rock with east coast working man lyrical sensibilities and a super high energy show, flew in contrast to all of the MJ/Madonna stuff..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Roy Brooks Posted November 27, 2011 Members Share Posted November 27, 2011 I don't think I ever heard the terms "overrated" and "underrated" as applied to bands until the internet. For me it is pretty darn simple. I play guitar because I want to play guitar. As a working musician I want to work as a musician. What I really enjoy as a working musician is when I get to play with cats I like and respect. And it is always nice when they like and respect me. I am a guitar player and sometimes bass player who does not sing or front a band. I am there to do the job I am assigned. I don't expect much recognition. And the recognition I do get is usually when another musician or somebody in the room that night, wherever I happen to be playing that night, comes up and tells me I did a good job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members etcetra Posted November 28, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 28, 2011 well, yeah, it kind of is, even if you don't realize it, because that's what it comes down to ultimately. Money gigs are rarely in bands where you're playing what makes you truly happy. It's that way for me, certainly. I am not arguing that, that's obvious. What I was looking for was how everyone dealt with that in their own lives, or to be more specific, what I wrote on the 2nd to last paragraph on my first post. wades_keys, Yea it's something that worries me about myself. I have bands that I really enjoy playing, and I do feel like there is something special going on when we play on stage, but I wonder if that feeling will wear off.. or if I was "wrong about it all along". The cool thing is that I've had a lot of talk with the band member and we all seem to agree about why we are doing it... We get some sort of spiritual connection/fullfillment from putting our best into the music. I just find it strange that I found it in music that I wasn't really into at first. Life is full of surprises.. chadd, I like the fact that the college I went to play is actually trying to do is trying to educate the students on what they are listening to. What they want to do in the future is have masterclass earlier in the day so that the musicians can talk about what they are doing. It's not just for the musicians, I think it's great that students are learning to appreciate music that they might not have understood otherwise. MartinC Thanks for sharing your experience. I think I understand what you mean... I still play some gigs just for the fun of it but as I get busy with stuff, I have less energy to do them, and I start to think "maybe I am selling my self short for doing these gigs". But then again, you never know where oppertunities will come from. 3shiftgtr I guess the thing is, there are bands out there who has "international presence" and what not and still do the music they want... I guess that those bands are lucky because what they like to do happen to coincide with that the market wants, but it doesn't necessarily work that way. I've had similar experience with big promoters, and it was difficult to communicate with them..most of the time you end up doing the music they want you to do. I turned it down because I didn't want to commit my whole career into that. I agree with you for the most part.. in the end, if I can make a living and still leave me time to do stuff I like, then I am happy guido Great point.. The problem with a lot of good bands in my area is that it's usually the same people/musician who come to support the music, and that number is limited. The people that comes to see our shows are musician friends that I've worked with on other gigs, and it kind of make sense because we share similar taste with music. It's cool because it's basically a community of some of the best/most creative musicians in the area but in some ways it's only appealing to people like us. Roy Books, Now that I think about it, maybe recognition is the wrong word.. Most musicians I know don't want to be famous, but they want to be respected for the work they do. But I still do think some recognition for the work you do (even if it's 1 or 2 people or your other musicians) can go a long way. I've played a lot of gigs where musicians were treated like SH&t and it does take a toll on you if it's like that all the time. My own experience, What I've noticed is that as I get older, the gigs that makes me happy tends to take a backseat as I become more in demand for other money gigs. In fact, most older musicians I know has given up on doing any personal projects. I am glad that the money gigs I play are still somewhat I enjoyable, because some of the older musicians look like they hate being there and playing music, like they just want to get paid and go home. Some of them have even told me they've completely lost any interest in music and doing it purely as a job. I still do long travels and play for next to nothing because I enjoy playing with the band, but I probably won't have the energy/time to do so when I have family and kids. But then again I've always told myself that if I ever come to a point where I am okay with not practicing, not being challenged, and not having the energy to do music I love, then perhaps it's time to move on and do something else with my life. I think a lot of my friends actually end up stop doing music as a career and do a 9-5 job for that reason..A 9-5 job allowed them to focus on their on music better and they no longer needed to take money gigs. But like MartinC said, you never know when something would happen.. I am playing a lot with one of the band now and we've played some really nice gigs, which seems to be leading to bigger things, and it was totally unexpected... BTW I don't think there is anything wrong with someone who's goal in music is to get recognition. I know people like that and they work very hard to do it. Their music may be boring to me and I don't agree with their attitude/work ethic toward music, but on the other hand, they are extremely dedicated about making a name for themselves. To each his own I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members troyguitar Posted November 28, 2011 Members Share Posted November 28, 2011 I think a lot of my friends actually end up stop doing music as a career and do a 9-5 job for that reason..A 9-5 job allowed them to focus on their on music better and they no longer needed to take money gigs. I do that. I have zero interest in making a career or even a side-job as a musician (Luthiery, on the other hand, is something I'd like to make a couple bucks from someday). I'm in it to play whatever I want. All of my music time is spent working on my own stuff for my own enjoyment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted November 28, 2011 Members Share Posted November 28, 2011 I'm into the Skinner "level 3 awareness" thing as a transformative mindset. It basically means that you learn to reflect criticism of others back on yourself. Doing so has made me realize that I'm not content to "rest on my laurels" musically. So, rather than wish for better this or that from other band members, I use that as a motivator to assess where I am musically and how that fits with where I want to be. Yes, I know this sounds selfish. But at the end of the day, ensembles are made up of players that have put in the work to get "good", to have their own voice and character. I feel that if more players actually did this vs. sweating the band bull{censored}, they'd wind up with better bands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted November 28, 2011 Members Share Posted November 28, 2011 I'm into the Skinner "level 3 awareness" thing as a transformative mindset. It basically means that you learn to reflect criticism of others back on yourself. Doing so has made me realize that I'm not content to "rest on my laurels" musically. So, rather than wish for better this or that from other band members, I use that as a motivator to assess where I am musically and how that fits with where I want to be. Yes, I know this sounds selfish. But at the end of the day, ensembles are made up of players that have put in the work to get "good", to have their own voice and character. I feel that if more players actually did this vs. sweating the band bull{censored}, they'd wind up with better bands. In a perfect world where nothing mattered but the music, perhaps. But the reality is that being in a band is as much about the personalities and the outside lives of the musicians as it the music they play. In my experience, the very best players are often the very worst bandmates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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