My feelings about really underated musicians/bands

[TIMKEYS]

I'm into the Skinner "level 3 awareness" thing as a transformative mindset. It basically means that you learn to reflect criticism of others back on yourself. Doing so has made me realize that I'm not content to "rest on my laurels" musically. So, rather than wish for better this or that from other band members, I use that as a motivator to assess where I am musically and how that fits with where I want to be. Yes, I know this sounds selfish. But at the end of the day, ensembles are made up of players that have put in the work to get "good", to have their own voice and character. I feel that if more players actually did this vs. sweating the band bull{censored}, they'd wind up with better bands.

 

 

Pretty much. In bands everyone has a few warts. Get over it and play.

[vanlatte]

 

So me and my friends have been playing/leading bands that do really interesting stuff.. .... Either way it's kind of sad that these musicians and reduced to doing other gigs and the moments when they really shine are used buried and somewhat obscured.

 

 

The sense of entitlement is staggering.

[wades_keys]

The sense of entitlement is staggering.

 

That's not entitlement. It's self awareness.

 

Entitlement only applies to those that don't deserve the rewards: those that have not put in the work or those that lack the necessary requirements.

 

That clearly isn't the case here.

[wades_keys]

In a perfect world where nothing mattered but the music, perhaps. But the reality is that being in a band is as much about the personalities and the outside lives of the musicians as it the music they play. In my experience, the very best players are often the very worst bandmates.

 

Well of course.

 

That's almost cliche'. So much so that I wonder if the "really good players" have to overcome that prejudice, and if some aren't victimized by it.

 

At work I've had to deal with (in the past) cases where my skillset and experience were vastly superior to my co-workers. That can cause a lot of tension, no matter how you present yourself.

[Vito Corleone]

That's almost cliche'. So much so that I wonder if the "really good players" have to overcome that prejudice, and if some aren't victimized by it.

 

 

For any "really good player" that feels victimized because of his superior abilities, my first response would be "get over yourself".

[wades_keys]

 

For any "really good player" that feels victimized because of his superior abilities, my first response would be "get over yourself".

 

You're missing the point entirely.

 

Cliche' judgements and prejudice happen in every avenue of life. It's just the way it is.

 

Example: A guitarist starts playing a John McLaughlin lick during a break. Bandmate assumes that means he isn't "happy" playing their tunes.

 

That's what I meant. I've seen that kinda {censored} happen. I bet you have too.

 

You wanna see a guy with chops that gets it? Check out Janek Gwizdala. On his jazz and solo gigs, he's got the lobe bass and he's blowing notes like crazy. But he'll do pop gigs with a P bass, good solid tone and no overplaying, with the right stage presence.

 

Betcha wouldn't have thought he was capable of those gigs if you only heard his jazz/solo stuff.

[Vito Corleone]

Example: A guitarist starts playing a John McLaughlin lick during a break. Bandmate assumes that means he isn't "happy" playing their tunes.

 

 

Well then talk to him about it. Assuming anything is a bad deal.

 

Personally, I don't much what anybody wants to play during a break as long as they keep the volume low enough that I don't have to hear it. Who plays licks during breaks? You're talking about breaks during gigs, right? I can't think of anything much less professional than that.

[troyguitar]

I was assuming he meant a break during rehearsal.

 

A lot of people, especially in the rock realm, really look down on players who practice like crazy and know their {censored}. It's not "rock and roll" to know how to use the melodic minor scale or even play in time. They're the people who think that Kurt Cobain was one of the best players ever.

[TIMKEYS]

our lead player tends to noodle during songs toward the end,,, you might be playing one old classic rock song and you will hear him laying in signature licks from other classic rock songs. He is real good and its tasty when he does it.

[Vito Corleone]

I was assuming he meant a break during rehearsal. A lot of people, especially in the rock realm, really look down on players who practice like crazy and know their {censored}. It's not "rock and roll" to know how to use the melodic minor scale or even play in time. They're the people who think that Kurt Cobain was one of the best players ever.

 

 

I guess. I dunno...not to sound like I'm bragging, but I've pretty much always played with players who were musically more advanced than the vast majority of the songs we cover. It's just the nature of being in a cover band that most of the stuff is going to be relatively simple. Maybe you get a song or a solo or two to stretch out and show some chops during the night...maybe not. Whatever. You do what you gotta do for the gig. But the truth is that if the players AREN'T a lot better than most of the material, the band is never going to be that good. I can't really afford to waste time with players who are going to be struggling through "You Shook Me All Night Long". The guys have to be good enough to just walk through that stuff and professional enough to play it like they own it otherwise the whole band is just going to a big waste of time.

[SeniorBlues]

 

I can't really afford to waste time with players who are going to be struggling through "You Shook Me All Night Long". The guys have to be good enough to just walk through that stuff and professional enough to play it like they own it otherwise the whole band is just going to a big waste of time.

 

 

There are different ways to approach that song. In the studio version, the drummer simply plays time through the refrain and doesn't actually kick with the band. If you've ever played with a drummer who feels eights, which allows you to kick with the band on the off-beats, then going back to a boom-crash quarter pulse where your drummer can't kick with the band seems pretty lame by comparison.

 

I suspect a lot of the better drummers on all these recordings do feel eights, but because they're emphasizing quarters pretty much all the time, it's not surprising that a lot of cover bands miss the eight feel completely.

 

All Right Now has the same refrain, but the drummer is more likely to continue kicking on the downbeat with the guitar riff, rather than the off beat vocal. . . . . . . but I'd sure hate to have to play with that incessant downbeat all night without variation.

 

How would you approach Photograph?

[Vito Corleone]

There are different ways to approach that song. In the studio version, the drummer simply plays time through the refrain and doesn't actually kick with the band.

 

Yeah, but that's a big part of what makes that song sound like AC/DC and what gives it that dance-floor-favorite groove. It still works if the drummer kicks the accents, but doesn't sound as smooth to me.

 

If you've ever played with a drummer who feels eights, which allows you to kick with the band on the off-beats, then going back to a boom-crash quarter pulse where your drummer can't kick with the band seems pretty lame by comparison.

Perhaps. Honestly, I can get pretty picky and personal sometimes about how far people go with their own takes on arrangements. I'm fine with players taking liberties--to a point---but then there is a point that is reached where things just no longer sound right to me anymore, at which point I'll be telling people "go back and just play that part like the CD'. Every song is different though.

 

 

I suspect a lot of the better drummers on all these recordings do feel eights, but because they're emphasizing quarters pretty much all the time, it's not surprising that a lot of cover bands miss the eight feel completely.

 

 

On another thread I was just talking about how rock music in the 80s resurged in part by taking things from the other genres that were more popular a few years before. One of these things was the "four on the floor" simple disco beats. Suddenly Tony Thompson of Chic was playing on all these rock records. My belief is one of the reasons that AC/DC's "Back in Black" album was so huge in 1980 was Mutt Lange had the drummer just play all those songs with simple disco beats. And why those songs remain so popular in nightclubs still today. They really are just simple disco songs on a certain level.

 

 

 

How would you approach Photograph?

You're talking about Def Leppard's song (and not Ringo Starr or Nickelback, I presume?) Gosh, I dunno. I'd have to go back and listen to it. I haven't really given that song much thought since I last played it in a cover band in probably 1984. Good song, but I think that, again, a lot of their success was due to having the drummer just play 'through' the song with simple beats. Mutt Lange producing again, BTW.

[SeniorBlues]

Four-on-the-floor killed the back beat, but I think it also killed the eight pulse. Not sure why because all those open hi-hat hits on the off beat kept the eights going. But when you start leaving out stuff on the "and", you end of with a dead rhythm, at least to my ear (and dance feet.)

 

It would be interesting to hear back to back versions of a song - one with off beat kicks, the other playing straight through - and see how listeners, dancers, and players respond.

[Vito Corleone]

Four-on-the-floor killed the back beat, but I think it also killed the eight pulse. Not sure why because all those open hi-hat hits on the off beat kept the eights going. But when you start leaving out stuff on the "and", you end of with a dead rhythm, at least to my ear (and dance feet.) It would be interesting to hear back to back versions of a song - one with off beat kicks, the other playing straight through - and see how listeners, dancers, and players respond.

 

 

I think that question was answered through trial and error years ago. Any cover band that has been around for any length of time and covered anything approaching a wide arrange of music can tell you that four-on-the-floor is what works best for keeping dance floors filled. (Not that keeping dance floors filled should be the goal of every band, of course.)

[wades_keys]

The drums in "Shook Me All Night" long already fall on the "off beat" with a very definite 8th feel.

 

Listen to the kick: 1, 2 & 4

 

Or am I missing something?

[SeniorBlues]

 

The drums in "Shook Me All Night" long already fall on the "off beat" with a very definite 8th feel. Listen to the kick: 1, 2 & 4 Or am I missing something?

 

 

I was referring to the refrain . . . kicking with the vocals.

 

But if Dave is right, then I'm the one who's out in left field.

 

I think you both know what I'm talking about. . . four on the floor easily becomes four on your right hand . . . . .

[TIMKEYS]

I was referring to the refrain . . . kicking with the vocals. But if Dave is right, then I'm the one who's out in left field. I think you both know what I'm talking about. . . four on the floor easily becomes four on your right hand . . . . .

 

 

Anymore i am just happy with a drummer than can keep the meter and doesnt get drunk at the gig. If they can play like a drum machine its perfect. I have had it with drummers who speed up, or lag , or do shoes in the dryer fills

[wades_keys]

 

I was referring to the refrain . . . kicking with the vocals. But if Dave is right, then I'm the one who's out in left field. I think you both know what I'm talking about. . . four on the floor easily becomes four on your right hand . . . . .

 

I know what you're saying, but I disagree with picking that song to make your point.

 

The song starts out with an "off beat" and then uses a four on the floor during the chorus, which to my ears is a hella lot more musical and interesting than if the beat had stayed "off" during the chorus.

 

If I was in a band with a drummer that wanted to throw in the "fancy foot" on the chorus of that tune I'd throw a beer can at him. No sense at all in showing off and ruining the song.

 

It's tough to single out Mutt-produced songs as being bland in any way, drum wise. Hell, listen to the "off beat" kicks in "Pour Some Sugar On Me". Sure, it's going to break down into a 4 on the floor, but there's plenty of interest building in the meantime. To me, that's far more musical than fancy-footing it throughout the whole darn song.

[Vito Corleone]

Here's my take on all of that: it really depends on the band and what the focus of that band is.

 

Is the band one whose focus is to play the songs as close to the original versions as possible? Then do that.

 

Is the band one whose focus is to keep the dance floor packed? You might want to make some of the drum parts even MORE simple. On some of the stuff we do, we have the drummer keep the kick going four-on-the-floor in places where the kick is doing something else on the original recording or where there is none at all.

 

Is the band a genre-focused band? Then feel free to twist-and-turn songs in whatever manner you need to fit your genre. If you're a reggae band, then playing every song with a reggae beat is the thing to do. You wanna be an R&B-focused band who plays everything with more backbeat? Why not? Of course, you need to be concerned with which songs translate well into that genre and which do not, but I don't see why it wouldn't be a cool thing if done well.

 

I see nothing wrong with re-arranging songs and beats. In fact, I think it's very cool. It just needs to be done with proper intention and focus and not be something that is done just to make "simple" songs more "interesting" for the players. It needs to be done as part of the overall presentation and performance of the band.

[SeniorBlues]

This is an interesting discussion for me. What's become clear is that different eras seem to reinforce different drum beats, so that songs played a certain way that were guaranteed to get people to dance won't work as well in another era - not because of familiarity with the lyrics or hook, but because people get used to certain beats. My first post to this forum two years ago asked what happened to the back beat, and I think the answer is that it got covered over by disco, which in turn reinforced the four-on-the-floor style of drumming that seems to have permeated most genres, funk being a notable exception.

[Vito Corleone]

 

This is an interesting discussion for me. What's become clear is that different eras seem to reinforce different drum beats, so that songs played a certain way that were guaranteed to get people to dance won't work as well in another era - not because of familiarity with the lyrics or hook, but because people get used to certain beats. My first post to this forum two years ago asked what happened to the back beat, and I think the answer is that it got covered over by disco, which in turn reinforced the four-on-the-floor style of drumming that seems to have permeated most genres, funk being a notable exception.

 

 

I think that's very true. You see a similar thing with styles of playing and singing as well. You can identify almost any era of music by the vocal styling. One common complaint you hear is that all the singers on pop records sound the same. But they pretty much ALWAYS did.