Members Vito Corleone Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by tlbonehead mostly the poweramp nature. How does a power amp failing in a passive system make things any easier than an active cab faiing? And how often does this happen to you, anyway? Seems the passive-system guys sure worry about component-failure a lot. Which leads me to believe many of them might be better off with actives. Or better passive gear, at the very least. They sure do make it seem like "one side of my amp went out!" is a fairly common occurance, anyway. But the key to being prepared for ANY sort of component failure is some degree of redundancy within your system. With an active system that's either carrying around an extra cabinet, or being able to limp through the gig with one less speaker. Maybe two guys double up on a monitor for the night if you need to utilize one of the monitors for the mains. Or you limp by on one less sub. Which is pretty much what happens during most passive system failures anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members modulusman Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 tlbonehead, why did you go back to passive instead of active. Just wondering if maybe the quality of the active cabs you were using wasn't a factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by tlbonehead Yes, I'm speaking about the assumption that constantly gets made that everything is perfectly matched together in a powered system, therefore you just flip the switches and go. To a much-larger degree, yes. When you're not worried much about amp settings or crossover settings, that's a few less dials and switches you have to deal with. But sure---if you need to EQ the room, you need to EQ the room, regardless. But some guys like to fiddle with system settings. That's cool. Some think they can get a better sound than what the "rocket scientists" at the manufacturers can do. A few might even be able to. That's all good. But most can't. Or even want to. Most musicians I know don't really want to be audio engineers. They just want to play. But for the guys that get off on that stuff, I'm sure there will always be all sorts of component systems available for them to fiddle with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by guido61 How does a power amp failing in a passive system make things any easier than an active cab faiing? And how often does this happen to you, anyway? Seems the passive-system guys sure worry about component-failure a lot. Which leads me to believe many of them might be better off with actives. Or better passive gear, at the very least. They sure do make it seem like "one side of my amp went out!" is a fairly common occurance, anyway. But the key to being prepared for ANY sort of component failure is some degree of redundancy within your system. With an active system that's either carrying around an extra cabinet, or being able to limp through the gig with one less speaker. Maybe two guys double up on a monitor for the night if you need to utilize one of the monitors for the mains. Or you limp by on one less sub. Which is pretty much what happens during most passive system failures anyway. I've had and been around many more newer active cabs that have failed than power amps. You can always throw your extra power amp in anywhere its needed, or double-up a channel if just one dies. With an active cab you're kinda screwed. Other than subs, where you can quickly pull the module out and maybe connect the driver to a power amp, if the amp portion of the cab is separate from the internal volume. And that is only considering you have a poweramp to use, and a way to keep the highs out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by guido61 To a much-larger degree, yes. When you're not worried much about amp settings or crossover settings, that's a few less dials and switches you have to deal with. But sure---if you need to EQ the room, you need to EQ the room, regardless. But some guys like to fiddle with system settings. That's cool. Some think they can get a better sound than what the "rocket scientists" at the manufacturers can do. A few might even be able to. That's all good. But most can't. Or even want to. Most musicians I know don't really want to be audio engineers. They just want to play. But for the guys that get off on that stuff, I'm sure there will always be all sorts of component systems available for them to fiddle with. the rocket scientists can't factor in weird room acoustics, crowd size, etc. Or having to cheat a little when you don't have quite enough rig for the gig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by tlbonehead I've had and been around many more newer active cabs that have failed than power amps. You can always throw your extra power amp in anywhere its needed, or double-up a channel if just one dies. With an active cab you're kinda screwed. Other than subes, where you can quickly pull the module out and maybe connect the driver to a power amp, if the amp portion of the cab is separate from the internal volume. And that is only considering you have a poweramp to use, and a way to keep the highs out of it. You can do the same thing with your extra active cab, can't you? We've been using our JBL system for probably 5-6 years now. Nothing has yet to fail, although we did take a couple of the PRXs into the shop because they were getting a bit noisy. But we've never had a speaker fail at a gig. Should that happen, we carry around some Eons in the trailer for various purposes (satellite systems and such) and could always throw up one of those to get by with for a night. Losing a sub would be a bit more problematic, although that's yet to happen either. But I'd like to get a couple more anyway. In which case losing one would be less of a problem. I also have a pair of Yamaha powered speakers I used for my keyboard speakers for about 10 years--although now they are pretty much retired since we went to IEMs. Except for one blown horn (still not sure how that happened), those have never failed either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members modulusman Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by tlbonehead I've had and been around many more newer active cabs that have failed than power amps. You can always throw your extra power amp in anywhere its needed, or double-up a channel if just one dies. With an active cab you're kinda screwed. Other than subes, where you can quickly pull the module out and maybe connect the driver to a power amp, if the amp portion of the cab is separate from the internal volume. And that is only considering you have a poweramp to use, and a way to keep the highs out of it. Maybe because the active cabs you were around were low budget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by modulusman Maybe because the active cabs you were around were low budget. I don't consider PRX to be low grade, do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by tlbonehead the rocket scientists can't factor in weird room acoustics, crowd size, etc. Or having to cheat a little when you don't have quite enough rig for the gig. I'd never use crossover settings for that stuff, really, anyway. But like I said---if you consider yourself a sound engineer and get off on that sort of fiddling with stuff---GREAT! Personally, I don't. And I suspect most bar-band guys who come here asking questions about "passive or active?" really don't either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by guido61 You can do the same thing with your extra active cab, can't you? We've been using our JBL system for probably 5-6 years now. Nothing has yet to fail, although we did take a couple of the PRXs into the shop because they were getting a bit noisy. But we've never had a speaker fail at a gig. Should that happen, we carry around some Eons in the trailer for various purposes (satellite systems and such) and could always throw up one of those to get by with for a night. Losing a sub would be a bit more problematic, although that's yet to happen either. But I'd like to get a couple more anyway. In which case losing one would be less of a problem. I also have a pair of Yamaha powered speakers I used for my keyboard speakers for about 10 years--although now they are pretty much retired since we went to IEMs. Except for one blown horn (still not sure how that happened), those have never failed either. maybe your old Yammies dodn't have much for limiting. Either, way, you can certainly blow a driver even with proper limiting. I would much rather lose a poweramp in a powered sub than a powered top cab. The sub is much easier to run passive temporarily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by tlbonehead I don't consider PRX to be low grade, do you? No, but they are also pretty notoriously reliable. What sort of failure rate/experience were you seeing with these? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members modulusman Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by guido61 You can do the same thing with your extra active cab, can't you? We've been using our JBL system for probably 5-6 years now. Nothing has yet to fail, although we did take a couple of the PRXs into the shop because they were getting a bit noisy. But we've never had a speaker fail at a gig. Should that happen, we carry around some Eons in the trailer for various purposes (satellite systems and such) and could always throw up one of those to get by with for a night. Losing a sub would be a bit more problematic, although that's yet to happen either. But I'd like to get a couple more anyway. In which case losing one would be less of a problem. I also have a pair of Yamaha powered speakers I used for my keyboard speakers for about 10 years--although now they are pretty much retired since we went to IEMs. Except for one blown horn (still not sure how that happened), those have never failed either. Always a good idea to have back-up for mission critical gear. In 10 years of owning over two dozen active cabs i have had one Mackie sub fail. It was a $35.00 repair bill for a loose soldier joint. I also had one of my PRX512ms start making noise occasionally. That was a also a cheap fix just required some crimping on a ribbon cable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by guido61 I'd never use crossover settings for that stuff, really, anyway. But like I said---if you consider yourself a sound engineer and get off on that sort of fiddling with stuff---GREAT! Personally, I don't. And I suspect most bar-band guys who come here asking questions about "passive or active?" really don't either. I thought you were referring to EQs more than crossovers. But certainly the crossover can help for certain things. Either one can also be very useful if it has adjustable lo-cuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members modulusman Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by tlbonehead I don't consider PRX to be low grade, do you? No they are MI grade. Have you owned any or was it some $300.00 speakers that you bought thinking you were getting a good deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by tlbonehead maybe your old Yammies dodn't have much for limiting. Either, way, you can certainly blow a driver even with proper limiting. I would much rather lose a poweramp in a powered sub than a powered top cab. The sub is much easier to run passive temporarily. Well, not unless you're carrying around an extra power amp. Sounds like you routinely keep a lot of redundancy/extra gear with your system anyway. So not sure why you'd be so concerned about stuff failing in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by guido61 No, but they are also pretty notoriously reliable. What sort of failure rate/experience were you seeing with these? I'm just saying that was one that failed in a band I was playing with. Fill-in drummer is also the main repair tech for a decent sized sound/lighting company in Sioux Falls, so I get to see a lot of the stuff that comes in for repair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by guido61 Well, not unless you're carrying around an extra power amp. Sounds like you routinely keep a lot of redundancy/extra gear with your system anyway. So not sure why you'd be so concerned about stuff failing in the first place. mainly I'm saying that one spare poweramp is far more versatile than one spare powered cab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by tlbonehead I thought you were referring to EQs more than crossovers. I was, until you brought up the "Rocket scientists" and what they don't account for when building active cabs, so I thought you must have been talking about crossovers.. No, they don't build EQs into active cabs. No one has suggested they do. Again, the need for an EQ is the same regardless of whether a system is active or passive, so I'm not sure why we're discussing EQs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by modulusman No they are MI grade. Have you owned any or was it some $300.00 speakers that you bought thinking you were getting a good deal. No they were the bass player's 612s. I have bought $300 speakers that were a good deal, but what do they have to do with this? For the record, I am a huge JBL fan, especially their SR-X stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by guido61 I was, until you brought up the "Rocket scientists" and what they don't account for when building active cabs, so I thought you must have been talking about crossovers.. No, they don't build EQs into active cabs. No one has suggested they do. Again, the need for an EQ is the same regardless of whether a system is active or passive, so I'm not sure why we're discussing EQs. forget it, you seem to have forgotten part of the bantering. Lets just say, use what works best for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by tlbonehead mainly I'm saying that one spare poweramp is far more versatile than one spare powered cab. Marginally so, at best. An extra active top: can work to replace a failed amp or speaker in either a main or monitor position. Won't do you {censored} for a either a failed sub amp or sub speaker. An extra power amp: can work to replace a failed amp in either either a top, sub or monitor position. Won't do you {censored} for a failed speaker in any position. Either way, it seems to me you've got about 75% of your possible 'fails' covered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members modulusman Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Well it has been fun argueing but unfortunately I have to go play a Christmas Party. The bandleader is still using caveman technology so I get to help load in a pair of Peavey SP-6s and a power amp rack that weight about a 150 pounds. Better put on my truss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by modulusman tlbonehead, why did you go back to passive instead of active. Just wondering if maybe the quality of the active cabs you were using wasn't a factor. I just find it a lot easier and cheaper to have separate cabs for small events vs large, and you can scale easily w/o changing anything else other than the cabs (meaning you can use the same power amps, and rack gear). Also just much easier and quicker to connect it all up for us anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by modulusman Well it has been fun argueing but unfortunately I have to go play a Christmas Party. The bandleader is still using caveman technology so I get to help load in a pair of Peavey SP-6s and a power amp rack that weight about a 150 pounds. Better put on my truss. Good luck! I played twice during the week and the bass player/keyboardist needed the weekend off. BTW, tell him to get some lighter amps for gosh sakes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by guido61 Marginally so, at best. An extra active top: can work to replace a failed amp or speaker in either a main or monitor position. Won't do you {censored} for a either a failed sub amp or sub speaker. An extra power amp: can work to replace a failed amp in either either a top, sub or monitor position. Won't do you {censored} for a failed speaker in any position. Either way, it seems to me you've got about 75% of your possible 'fails' covered. can also be used for bass, guitar, even keys, if any of them use a mixer, preamp, or effects processor. Or if just the power section died in a head of combo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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