Members Vito Corleone Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by Blackbird 13 Also.. I know you and I don't see eye to eye on some things when it comes to PA.. but what's the deal with everyone going powered for PA now? It still seems there are less possible gig-critical failures using seperate power amps and passive speakers, right? Wrong. Since the majority of "gig-critical failures" are due to problems caused by mis-matched/mis-used gear that powered speakers are designed to prevent, there's less failure rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by Blackbird 13 Also.. I know you and I don't see eye to eye on some things when it comes to PA.. but what's the deal with everyone going powered for PA now? It still seems there are less possible gig-critical failures using seperate power amps and passive speakers, right? Going back to passive speakers after using powered speakers for a little while. Just so much more simple for setup and if you have just a little electronix know-how and sense you should be able to size your amps accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members modulusman Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by Blackbird 13 Also.. I know you and I don't see eye to eye on some things when it comes to PA.. but what's the deal with everyone going powered for PA now? It still seems there are less possible gig-critical failures using seperate power amps and passive speakers, right? Powered speakers will generally sound better for the average user. The engineers have spent alot of time to make them sound good right out of the box. They will have built in processing. Unless you really no how to use a driverack you probably will not get as good of results. As Guido mentioned less chance of failure do to mis-matched components. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by guido61 Wrong. Since the majority of "gig-critical failures" are due to problems caused by mis-matched/mis-used gear that powered speakers are designed to prevent, there's less failure rate. what data did you use to create this "fact"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members modulusman Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by tlbonehead Going back to passive speakers after using powered speakers for a little while. Just so much more simple for setup and if you have just a little electronix know-how and sense you should be able to size your amps accordingly. How is it simpler? No heavy amp rack or crossover needed with powered cabs. I will never go back to passive gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by tlbonehead what data did you use to create this "fact"? My own experience for one. I've yet to blow a speaker since switching to active gear. I suppose for those who are so knowledgable about sound and gear that they've never cranked 'em up so loud in a rock club that they've blown a speaker, or made sure their equipment was so well-matched and so perfectly tuned that doing so would be virtually impossible, then there's probably little difference between the two types of systems from a 'failure rate' standpoint. Perhaps you're one of these sorts. Unfortunately, most musicians I know (myself included) are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by modulusman How is it simpler? No heavy amp rack or crossover needed with powered cabs. I will never go back to passive gear. The "more simple" argument for passive gear usually centers around the AC cables needed for active cabs. Which is a "trouble" that is pretty easily minimized and one that (IMO) is easily outweighed by all the other conveniences (fewer components, less weight) that active cabs provide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by guido61 The "more simple" argument for passive gear usually centers around the AC cables needed for active cabs. Which is a "trouble" that is pretty easily minimized and one that (IMO) is easily outweighed by all the other conveniences (fewer components, less weight) that active cabs provide. adding an amp to a cab makes it lighter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SpaceNorman Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by StratGuy22 Yeah. The place doesn't want us tearing down all night. We are able to get everything pretty much ready for load out. We do as much as we can, until the staff is ready to leave. Stay the night. Grab breakfast, load up and head home. We don't do a lot of out of town gigs. It's not a bar, so we have to bring out whole setup with us. Just curious ... how long does it take you to tear down. Both of my "big" projects (one is a 6 piece group, the other an 8 piece group) are usually packed and loaded out in a hair under an hour from the time the last note ends. In both of my scenarios - there's a significant keyboard rig, a full drum kit, a full PA (2 sub, 2 main, 4 monitor wedges, amp rack, FOH rack .. and all the cabling...) - as well as lights (a stand and a simple "4 bar" of lights on each side of the stage). It's rare that the wait staff isn't still picking up bottles and cleaning as we're walking out with the last piece of gear. Getting it done that fast means that we all walk of the stage after the final tune - take a minute or so to take a leak - and then get straight to tearing down. Our vocalists (female in one project, male in the other) are the only members of the band that do any "smoozing" during teardown (that's by design ... their job is to keep the patrons occupied so the rest of us can tear down our gear). Everybody approaches teardown and loadout with a sense of urgency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members modulusman Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by tlbonehead adding an amp to a cab makes it lighter? Adding an amp rack will mean more weight and more load in trips. The added weight of a powered cab is usually less than 10 pounds compared to a passive cab.The PA cabs Guido and I have weight only 7 pounds more than the unpowered version.{JBL PRX512m compared to MRX512m.} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by tlbonehead adding an amp to a cab makes it lighter? Then the combined weight of a separate amp and speaker and a crossover? That usually does seem to be the case. If not moreso. The JBL PRX612M weighs 33.5 lbs and has a bi-amped 1000W (2x500W) amp. The comparable passive PRX412M weighs 38 lbs with no amp and is rated at 600W. The powered version is actually LIGHTER. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by guido61 Then the combined weight of a separate amp and speaker and a crossover? That usually does seem to be the case. If not moreso. The JBL PRX612M weighs 33.5 lbs and has a bi-amped 1000W (2x500W) amp. The comparable passive PRX412M weighs 38 lbs with no amp and is rated at 600W. The powered version is actually LIGHTER. well then it isn't actually the same speaker, other than sharing the model number. The powered model must have neo mags or something similar vs the passive model. That is certainly not the norm. You'll find in most cases that there is probably a 10-15lb difference with the powered box being heavier, obviously. Also, these cabs listing the horn amp as being the same HP as the woofer amp is pretty devious. Obviously they aren't allowing 500 watts to be blasted into that horn driver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by tlbonehead well then it isn't actually the same speaker, other than sharing the model number. The powered model must have neo mags or something similar vs the passive model. That is certainly not the norm. You'll find in most cases that there is probably a 10-15lb difference with the powered box being heavier, obviously. Also, these cabs listing the horn amp as being the same HP as the woofer amp is pretty devious. Obviously they aren't allowing 500 watts to be blasted into that horn driver. I don't know the full details on both speakers. Obviously there are some differences but the real question is: are the results the same? Maybe the different components that allow for a lighter active cab are the result of being able to precisely tune the amp to the speaker? Andy over at Live Sound would probably be the guy to ask about that. But even the 7 pound difference on the older PRX/MRX model isn't much. And even using your 10-15lb difference---I've never had an amp and a crossover in a rack that didn't weigh at LEAST 20lbs, have you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by guido61 I don't know the full details on both speakers. Obviously there are some differences but the real question is: are the results the same? Maybe the different components that allow for a lighter active cab are the result of being able to precisely tune the amp to the speaker? Andy over at Live Sound would probably be the guy to ask about that. But even the 7 pound difference on the older PRX/MRX model isn't much. And even using your 10-15lb difference---I've never had an amp and a crossover in a rack that didn't weigh at LEAST 20lbs, have you? I have 9000 watts in my rack that has a total weight of about 29lbs for the power. And the amp and crossover add very little weight. Plus I would obviously want an EQ available regardless of whether it is a passive or active setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members modulusman Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by tlbonehead well then it isn't actually the same speaker, other than sharing the model number. The powered model must have neo mags or something similar vs the passive model. That is certainly not the norm. You'll find in most cases that there is probably a 10-15lb difference with the powered box being heavier, obviously. Also, these cabs listing the horn amp as being the same HP as the woofer amp is pretty devious. Obviously they aren't allowing 500 watts to be blasted into that horn driver. Show me some examples of most cases Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jimiv Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by modulusman How is it simpler? No heavy amp rack or crossover needed with powered cabs. I will never go back to passive gear. Powered speakers/monitors etc. = less {censored} to plug in = less time to set-up/break-down = less PA equip fail = less headache. Took that road a while ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by modulusman Show me some examples of most cases well common sense for one would say that all other things being exactly the same, the power amp will add something to the weight. If you have a specific model in mind that has a powered and passive version check it out. Nearly all the ones I have looked at have weight difference between the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by jimiv Powered speakers/monitors etc. = less {censored} to plug in = less time to set-up/break-down = less PA equip fail = less headache. Took that road a while ago. Powered = less to plug in? Are your speakers wireless? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIMKEYS Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 I am sold on powered speakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by TIMKEYS I am sold on powered speakers. for small, simple setups they are great, especially in situations where the users aren't too sound-savvy and don't really have any interest in becoming so.There are certainly many situations where I would recommend a powered setup over passive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members modulusman Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by tlbonehead well common sense for one would say that all other things being exactly the same, the power amp will add something to the weight. If you have a specific model in mind that has a powered and passive version check it out. Nearly all the ones I have looked at have weight difference between the two. You are saying 10 -15 pounds. I call bull{censored}. I'm looking at an old mackie catalog right now that showed the active 450 weighing only 5 pounds more than the passive version c300. This was some of the first active speakers available. If you look at carvin the difference between their active a nd passive PM series is about 2 or 3 pounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by modulusman You are saying 10 -15 pounds. I call bull{censored}. I'm looking at an old mackie catalog right now that showed the active 450 weighing only 5 pounds more than the passive version c300. This was some of the first active speakers available. If you look at carvin the difference between their active a nd passive PM series is about 2 or 3 pounds. well call what you wish. I'm not gonna dig thru a bunch of data . Its just what I've found when looking at different models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members modulusman Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by tlbonehead for small, simple setups they are great, especially in situations where the users aren't too sound-savvy and don't really have any interest in becoming so.There are certainly many situations where I would recommend a powered setup over passive. Well my band plays for crowds outdoors with more than 500 people a few times a year using all active cabs with no problems. I would also venture to guess that my PA weighs less than your outdated gear probably sounds better too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 just looked up one of the more popular small/mid sized subs here, the Yorkie 800 line. The listed weight of the active version is about 21lbs higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members modulusman Posted December 15, 2012 Members Share Posted December 15, 2012 Originally Posted by tlbonehead well call what you wish. I'm not gonna dig thru a bunch of data . Its just what I've found when looking at different models. Well you would have to do alot of digging because I have never seen an active version of a comparable cab weighing 15 pounds more IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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